How about this?

George Bush declares that if an illegal alien jons the army for 8 years and kills an enemy , they get citizenship.

Two birds with one stone.

Then all we have to do is bring back the neutron bomb.

Every time a US serviceman is killed, we neutron a muslim town. Muslims respect power, they are only rebelling because they see us as weak.

It would work. Right now the us soldiers just look like meek little fairys, hiding behind walls.

Thats bullshit. Sadaam ignored ever countries attempt to get him to comply with the UN for 10 years. Of which Clinton did nothing but sit back and get blowjobs. It was only after someone came in office and said enough is enough did he want to talk. Wanting to talk was another bullshit smokescreen he was trying to blow up the worlds ass for no complying. Clinton was to busy fucking around on his wife for 8 years then managing this country. To busy showing up on Leno to blow sax and worry about 1 billion people just being rolled over into a communist state called China.

Also this 30% pay taxes thing SirMoby is right. It's estimated. That means they don't know for sure. I can estimate and say it's only 2% and I would be just on the mark as those who claim it's 30% cause no one knows for sure. Hell I can estimate my cock is 10 inches when I'm sleeping but for some reason when I wake up it's not true.

Fair Tax looks good. I recently saw a movie on Yahoo about taxes. Someone took out a full page ad in the New York Times offering a reward of $50k to anyone that could show him the law saying we have to pay income tax. They had an IRS worker saying, "I thought I would kill 2 birds with 1 stone. I would shut up the people that claim there is no law and pocket $50" She went on to explain that she looked and looked and could not find the law. A federal court finally ordered that the government did not have to show a law to collect income taxes :)

As for immigrants, recent numbers are at about 12 million. So, that would be about 3.6 million pay income taxes and more importantly, social security. The 3.6 million paying this more than makes up for them using our roads, medical services and such. Even if it didn't, they buy our products and do help the economy more than they hurt it. Again, from your boy Bloomberg, Tommy..."Although they broke the law by illegally crossing our borders . . . our city's economy would be a shell of itself had they not, and it would collapse if they were deported," he said. ``The same holds true for the nation.""

Illegal immigration is nothing new. Just as flag burning isn't anything new. Why do you suppose these have been such a big issues? I was glad to see the flag burning issue go down the tubes. And, I will be glad after November when the hoopla about illegal immigration goes away again. It seems to me that the government as a whole could really be working on things just a little more important.

Bottom line..., Bush is the worst President in History. He makes Hoover look like a genius and Nixon look like a boyscout. Because of his lies, thousands of US citizens and over 100,000 Iraqis have been killed. Because of this moronic war, he has made the military so thin, they are scraping the bottom of the barrel to fill boots. The quality of the solders has not been this low since the end of the draft in 73. He thinks history will show him as a great President. I believe history will show him as committing the worst war crimes since Hitler.

high taxes is a major issue
and nobody knows how many illegals are here

when a group of people that number between 12 and 20 million dont pay taxes that means everyone else has to pay a lot more

also if ya think about it
a family medical plan runs around 1000 a month
thats about 30% of what most of em make

think about it from a business prospective

can a business survive if only 30% of the people pay for the goods or services they use or consume

could you run a deli and have 70% of your customers walking out with out paying

Not sure if this whole post was just a typo or something else. First, The Communist Party of China (CPC) has led the PRC under a one-party system since the country's establishment in 1949. Next, Bill Clinton was on Leno in June of 92 while he was running for President. He was President from 93-2001. And as for the UN, the US needs to start to comply with the UN before we expect that from any other country.

Isn't it possible that those workers would be replaced with US workers earning a higher wage and paying in a higher tax bracket? I can't imagine the illegals are doing work that no one really needs done.

It's not bullshit. Those communications did occur.

My opinion is that the middle east could still be at peace. Your opinion is that we needed a war in Iraq. Does that mean that the facts I mention above are bullshit? :)

When bank robbers end up taking hostages do we go in and just start killing everyone or do we try to negotiate in order to save the lives of the innocent?

30,000, 50,000, 100,000, 1,000,000 lives. What is the number of innocent lives lost that makes the war a bad thing?

Clinton may have been sleeping around but he achieved some great things. What has Dubya achieved so far?

and since those workers would be getting paid a fair wage
wouldn't they be spending more

wouldn't they take their kids to Disneyland and buy cars and living room furniture

wouldn't that help the economy also

AND they would pay federal taxes

instead of the illegals sending the money back home to Mexico to pay for beans

The idea sounds good and while I don't disagree with it I'm concerned in how it will effect the country.

1. It encourages savings and now that we are a service oriented country if people start saving instead of spending our economy dies. We no long manufacture anything of value.

2. What happens when I start buying things from other countries? If I were to take all my profits from investments and simply buy things from over seas. I don't buy a vacation home in the USA. Instead I buy one in Canada or Mexico.

3. When I buy things in Canada (they have a VAT) I can always not pay the VAT by using cash :)

Maybe these things are easily addressed by minds that have more knowledge on this issue then mine.

Sir Moby please explain to me the great things Clinton did other then make people feel as though they were talking to a movie star. Did he create the internet like his buddy said? My opinion is not that we needed a war. It's that talks were going on for 10 years and nothing came from them. No other country was willing to put a stop to him dropping people in meat grinders because they were benefiting from trade with Iraq. You keep saying talk talk talk. Well you know there are some people in this world who love it when governments just talk. There’s an old saying. Talk is cheap. Actions speak louder then words. When you talk to someone for ten years about fixing an issue and all they do is toss you the finger, then what? Talk more? Tommy said this war was not Bushes fault and he is correct. It's not his dad's either. Ever hear of the Iran contra affair? That's where all this shit started. In fact it goes back more; it goes back to the late-70's when another democrat was in office. And that democrat claims he was attacked by a rabbit while on a boat and also saw UFO’s. His thought’s were, hey let's help the Afghanis against Russia and give them some weapons, lets not worry if any other countries like IRAN will get pissed and maybe take some Americans hostage for 444 days. I don’t blame him for trying; hell the Russians were trying to topple a democratic government. But he should have known better, the country has been in and out of civil wars since 600ad. Then once again a republican gets in office and people shit their pants. Knowing republicans have traditionally used the military without hesitation. I agree with Tommy 100% the Bushes did not start this problem. It’s crazy to say he did when you are dealing with countries that have been warring since the dawn of time over sand.

Ok I love argueing with you guys but I'm on my way home. Post back later. lol

its very radicial so its a bit scary

but it reduces the size of goverment and thats always good
people saving money is always a good thing

and sooner or later saved money gets spent

and how many times does a contractor ask you for cash or offer a discount for cash

avoiding taxes by using cash happens now

I am not saying its perfect the way it is
it needs some work but I think its a great idea and great ideas dont come around that often

I read somewhere that there are one hundred and sixty thousand pages in the federal tax code

and a few lines of text replaces that

also the way the tax system is now
the common man cant understand it and that allows to politicans to use the confusion to fuck the average Joe

this is so simple
the tax is 23% if it goes up everybody instantly knows it

juggernaut
bill Clinton created the housing boom

and that's one of the best domestic things any president has done in the last 50 years or so

the housing boom that allowed Bush to go around taking credit for how good the economy was

housing is usually 8 to 15% of the nations GNP
but in the last 5 years its hoovering around 40 to 50% of the nations GNP

what would happen to this economy if the housing boom didn't happen

it would be in the toilet

would you like to know how this happened

see Clinton made a trade agreement with china called
Central America Free Trade Agreement Implementation Act

and that allowed china to invest their money in the us

china choose to invest their money in americian Tbills

the us goverment takes the money from Tbills or tresurarys and lends that money to banks

since there were so much money available to lend to banks that forced the intrest rate to come down and it made the lending requirments looser

since the intrest rate came way down and mortages were easyer to get a lot of people were taking mortages and buying houses

since there was such a demand for houses the houses went up in price

but thats not the end of it

since the intrest rate was so low and the value of a house went up so much
people that already owned homes took equity out of their homes and used that money to buy cars and furniture and computers

which drove up the demand for workers

but thats not the end of it either

those new workers that had money to spend
they went out and bought clothes and pizza and computers and tvs

and that created a demand for even more workers

If that is true then the majority Muslim population of Iraq are the last people who should have Dubya bombs lobbed their way. Saddam Hussain lead a secular, non-Islamic government. Any goodwill towards Muslims from Saddam has merely been for PR and ultimately control (descrating a Koran by printing it in his own blood comes to mind.) They were victims under Saddam and they are still victims now. Perhaps worse off.

One could say "well great, that's why the US is bringing them democracy!" If thats the case then it isn't going well. Throughout the world there's a lot of pissed off Muslims who have seen the US foreign policy under Dubya in action over Foxnews (in all its pretentiousness) and Al Jazeera -- or have experienced it personally. Because of Dubya's administration non-Muslims in other Western countries have had their view of the US sour. Dubya is not totally to blame. Bad US foreign policy is nothing new. It's just that its a lot more transparent and seems magnified under his administration.

Before and during the Sept 11 fallout I was inherently Pro-American. I was glad to have my country lend any support needed to find OBL and his band of terrorists. Up until the months after Sept. 11 I hardly considered the US very much different from Canada. I was younger and ignorant about my country (when you're young and constantly being exposed to US television its easy to forget you're Canadian if you don't keep your nationality in check.) The Bush Administration has created a polarisation which I did not expect.

Bush's America seems very different than the one I grew up with. And if America has made any mistakes in its past this administration is repeating them during record time.

The world (and much of the US population, obviously) feel like Dubya is kicking the proverbial bee's nest for short term gain at the expense of future stability.

A flat federal sales tax would reduce to almost nothing the governments surveillance of individuals in their homes.

Therefore it won't ever happen.

Especially not here in the US. It might be tried in europe somewhere.

Besides, it would instantly quadruple the cash gray and black economy.

Quadruple? shit, Octuple.

they'd have to make cash illegal.

It would be great tho. Tax would be completely visible anytime you bought something. Income tax is semi invisible - for most people - the money just never shows up in their paycheck.

I'd vote for it.

I dont know man. I'm not saying it did not help, but here is what I saw where I live and you are not that far from me, shit maybe 20 miles across the water. What I saw in my town was before 9/11 I could have bought a house on my 65K year salary. After 9/11 I had to move 20 miles away as I could not afford a 2 bedroom house that was going for 350k. Interest rates where low but not at the 5 and 6% rates we saw down the line. After 9/11 my town 1 hour outside NYC saw a major influx of people leaving NYC because they were scared. Having only a 20 minute commute by boat to hit downtown they started to think. It took them 20 mins anyway by subway, bus or taxi to enter their place of work so why not move to a "safer area". People who were paying 3 and 4 k per month to live in a shoebox in NYC found out "WOW I can pay 2k and have 3, 4 bedrooms with a backyard. Raise my kids in good schools in a place where they can stay out after dark with no worries. Live 5 minutes from the beach I go to anyway on the weekends. Hey how much is that guy asking for his house? 200k? No problem call it sold." Now the people in my town freak out they did not have to hassle on the home price and word gets around threw the agents. They start recommending people put their houses up for more money, which they do. Houses reach 300K 400k 500k 600k in 6 months. My moms 5 bedroom which was bought in 75 for 35k is now worth 480k. She put it on the market last year and was offered asking price in 1 weekend. She decided she could not sell the house so passed. It's going to be interesting to see the outcome of this in 20 or 30 years as most of the people I know were taking interest only loans just to stay in the town they grew up in. My friend who does mortgages told me it was 60% of his business. Refi's being 20% and the rest were taking traditional mortgages. Those loans even tho they save you money in the short term are going to kill them in 20 or 30 years. If the interest rates go up they are going to have one hell of a time dropping those homes and paying off the loan. That's what is going to come from what Clintion did. We are going to see this country worse off then it was as bankrupsy courts are going to be flooded. Thats why they just changed that law last year. They know the bubble is going to pop. Then what do you have? You have a shit load of banks who have property they can't unload or get the loan back on and they start asking the government for help. Which means what? Taxes balloon to the point where I would not be surpised to see a 50% income tax just to fix this nightmare. I don't know if it was Clinton's trade agreement with China that did it. I like to think it was this http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/...4208_db013.htm
Oh yeah and a little bit of the 9/11 :)

I noticed that you didn't mention one good thing that Dubya has done :)

Clinton
- Created 26 Million jobs - Dubya brags about less then 15% to 20% of that and most of those are in the low paying service industry
- Decreased the number in poverty more then any other - Dubya has increased it
- Cut the size of government by almost 200,000 people - Dubya has increased the size of government more then any other (yet he still calls the dems the party of big government)
- Clinton cut the deficit more then any other - Dubya has increased it more then any other (yet the dems are called the party of big spending)
- Gave tax cuts to over 15,000,000 of the America's poorest workers (yet the dems are still called the party of tax & spend)
- Created the family and medical leave act so that parents could actually spend a few weeks with newborns
- Produced the lowest crime rate in 40 years
- Hire 100,000 police officers
- Cut gun access to violent criminals while adding a bunch of rifles to the protected list for hunters

There's no point in getting angry. We may disagree on if Iraq was still a threat or not. So far no evidence has been shown since the invasion that they were a threat to the USA in any way. Even the administration (after the election) admitted that Sadaam did not have communications with any known terrorist groups and that no weapons of mass destruction were found. These are facts stated by the administration themselves.

If you can point to some evidence then please do. If you can't, why get angry?

I know we can talk about Sadaam using the gas that we sold him but we gave it to him to use against Iran. It's shelf life had expired.

We can also bring up the old stories of the mass graves. No inspection of those graves has occurred. They've been sealed for years now. They were not brought up during Sadaam's war trial as evidence. I think if they were real that inspectors would have seen them and they would be part of the trial. Don't you?

I have a lot of respect you. We simply disagree on whether Sadaam was still a threat or not.

You asked me Clinton did and I listed it for you. You ignored my question about Dubya and I've noticed that most of his supporters do the same thing. Why is that?

One good thing he has done. I as you might know am military. An he gave me and everyone else a much needed raise. BTW Im not angry at all. I love debates even i lose them most of the time. Dam now you have me editing. I did not ignore you at all, You never posted a question to me. Maybe I did not see it as I was writing my long winded blah blah. I posted this not 2 or 3 minutes after i saw this post. My email did not go off with anything you posted towards me.

A decade ago people were emotional about politics. Today they're down right angry. Great leaders join people together. Bad leaders turn people against one another to maintain control.

Dubya's America is about hate and passing the buck. He's already stated that he will NOT get us out of Iraq, which he promised would not be a long war. He has already stated that he will NOT fix the deficit.

One thing I find funny is how weak people are. Most of all Americans. And yeah I'm one. After 9/11 everyone was "KICK TOWEL HEAD ASS! NOW!" but the fact is they want a 1, 2 punch. People in this country think that because you are told our military is the strongest and best trained in the world we should be able to kick ass in 1 day. 3 years later here we are crying about 3000 soliders who did there job. It's not wonder anyone above the age of 70 hates the younger generation. No balls for bloodshed but yet thats exactly what this country was founded on. 1 soldier dies and people all over the place start crying bring the troops home. Such bullshit. Most of the soliders I know want to go back. So now what? If they go back 2 3 or 4 times and then die it's Bushes fault? Please, how about the guy who pointed the rifle at them or the one who planted the IED. This administration is no differant then any other. They all pass the buck man. That's why they got where they are. An dude this is not a long war. A long war in the governments eyes is 10 years, if the American people have not figured that out after the ones we have been in over the last 80 years then like I said in another post. Fantisy land.

Holy shit that's a lot of reading I'm not going to do right now. But...

Let's NOT compare Clinton to Bush. Pleeeeease. Clinton did not KILL the US economy and many Americans with a war. Bush is now and will continue to do so. Some call Clinton a pussy for not going to war? That is insane. He was actually liked by MANY european people. You think Bush is? America is hated more now since Bush took over than they ever were and that's sad.

I am Canadian and proud of it but I also have a love for America but Bush is an idiot, plain and simple.

Many of the problems in the world right now started long before GWB took office. Granted he hasn't done a great job, but people do seem to turn a blind eye to the fact that many of the things that are coming to fruition now were seeds planted decades ago.

The U.S. foreign policy has basically been flawed since Harry Truman was in office. I can show how the seeds sown in each administration basically sprouted 99% of the problems we're having now.

The main problem is we've broken the golden rule of military engagement and the U.S. should have only involved itself in world politics when the issue directly effected the U.S.

The tension in the middle east existed long before Bush, the tension in the Korean pennisula was there long before Bush, al qaeda was there long before Bush, Iran was being a piss-ant little country long before Bush, and has people forgotten the gas shortages of the 70's?

I'm not saying that Bush has done a great job of it and he's made huge mistakes, but people are taking a big glass of delusion juice if they think these problems wouldn't have happened regardless of who was in office right now. They're even more deluded if they think a change in administration would do all that much to better our current situation.

Our foreign policy should return to our old way of isolationism (not talking about economic isolation though) but our military should only be used for what directly effects America and let the rest of the world deal with these problems for a bit.

Ramster, Oh I'm not even going to go at it with you. Your like a lawer here. You always get the last word and I have to say very educated word at that. lol

PS god these posts are so fast Im going to have to start quoting

Not really a comparison, but you can't really say Clinton did all that great of a job at least in the foreign policy realm. You say European leaders liked America, that's nice, but how exactly did that benefit us?

Did it stop the embassy bombings in Africa? A lot of people died and it's probably when the "war on terror" should have started. I'm sure that there was a good deal of racism mixed in that though as the media didn't really show the gravity of that attack because most of the people killed were African workers.

Did it stop the USS Cole from being attacked?

Did anything happen in regards to Saddam during that time? Yes, he was causing trouble at the time if people remember back.

N. Korea was more or less quietly breaking the agreements they signed during that time as well.

Now, do I blame Clinton? No, he's just another step in what we're currently in. So is Bush ver. 1.0, Regan, Carter, Ford, Nixon, LBJ, JFK, etc, etc...each president has failed in the arena of foreign policy and therefore has failed the American populace.

also a note on the economy

everyone knows when America is at war the economy booms

take away the war and the housing boom and throw in the national debt and what have you got
soup and bread lines :-)


Clinton had a great economy and balanced the budget

we will soon refer to that as the good ol times