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the key to it is to either have everyone do it at the same time, but like everyone has said that just wont happen (unless copa goes through and thats why i kinda hope it does
the other way to do it is to give the surfers something more than what they can get anywhere else for free.. not much more but something... kinda like AVS did but for some reason we have all poo pooed avs now too. i wonder why it seems great ideas are usually the same ideas that already exist as bad ideas because they werent mouthed by big names in the industry? |
I think the only real way this would happen is if the US implies some kind of law like all surfers have to enter a CC number in order to view any graphic images. Then you could charge a surfer a $5 lifetime membership to your TGP, link list or whatever. But if that were the case, I think it would have to be all FHG's and FHS's because the domains hosting the free content would have to be controlled. Otherwise you couldn't tell who is the TGP and who is the gallery submitter.
Did anybody else notice tommy's thought pattern? He just started charging for submits and now all the sudden he is thinking about charging surfers too... he's getting greedy! Musta made some nice money from the submits fee. LOL j/k tommy. |
You know what I love - and this doesn't apply to Tommy (LOL)
The geniuses that run CJ's & blink link TGP's that think that they should be able to charge surfers for clean gallery links after fucking them over for the last 5 years :D |
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Tommy - if you remember - I was one of the few that agreed with you back in the day when we were discussing paid submits a few years ago :)
I happen to agree with you on this as well - for a few reasons. First - from a biz model as you mentioned, we have been screwing ourselves for years to make money for sponsors - and they in turn have taken it further with the addition of free hosted galleries and loads of free content for submits, leading to the "easy path" for a bunch of new WMs and killing off a few big content companies in their path. Second - and I think that there is a low buzz already developing about this - the organizational side of this biz has always been lacking - people have developed into small groups, but never a large "association" that worked towards the benefit of the people that do the real work in the biz (traffic generators) Third - A lot of self regulation done early on our side would lead to less future attempts at regulation from the outside, and some people still look at the internet as a wild wild west - it still "seems" that way, but with everything from lawsuits to international treaties in the works already to regulate the internet, this will change - and we better be ready. Last - there are some technical issues that will have to be handled ranging from issues with SE's caching and image hotlinking (copywrite issues) to handling WMs in countries that tend not to care about self regulation but I truly believe that can all be worked out to everyones benefit. I say we should definitely not let this one drop for a few years like we did with the paid submits :) |
A federal court dismissed obscenity charges against extreme associates, here is the article http://www.avn.com/index.php?Primary...tent_ID=214089
One of the reasons cited for dropping the charges was that extreme associates has their content behind a member's area that can only be accessed with a credit card. So charging with a credit card gives you some protection. |
you guys keep talking about the hun
when extreame paychecks opens 5 new paysites the huns traffic doesnt go up I am not gonna change over Tommys and even if everyone else did it I would be the last man holding the fort Kicking and screaming BUT I am very tempted In fact I am gonna try it on a new tgp and go around premoting my new paid tgp like its a sponsor now lets say this tgp makes truckloads of money think about it, look at nasty dollars they were the first that got in to reality content and now they are one of the biggest sponsors around do you wanna be one of the johnny come Latelys Remember worldsex got sold for like a million dollars what if worldsex could have charged the surfers a small price and made 2 million in the first 4 months dont you think he would have done it ?????? Sooner or later the Ambulance chasers will find this industry and living in holland isnt gonna help you, If you do buisness in the USA they can get your money I am not spreading doom and gloom rumors This is a vision maybe a prediction, Maybe a fantasy |
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Damn right, Tommy. Go for it Buddy! |
As usual Tommy, your idea has a lot of merit. The first thing that popped into my mind was AVS. Remember the Visa regulations did NOT kill the AVS companies but only made them change their marketing and some folded at that time because they were already loosing money. AVS companies were loosing members because they had terrible sites in the network. Some AVS companies still exists and the sites, the content and the navigation makes for one of the worst porn surfing experiences that can be found on-line today. Just go surf Adult Check and see if you can get a boner.
A Mr. Mary Lou, a GG or a Tommy running something like that would push for quality sites and keep growing the member base. If surfers come to your site they will buy. The Home Shopping Network should be proof enough that people will buy anything at any time for reasons that no one can possibly understand. They will buy your memberships. If you had a strong network of porn sites that could only be had at Tommy’s money site then the surfers would not only buy they would also renew month after month. I don’t see this as a replacement for free porn but I do see this as a new revenue stream. It will work if implemented correctly. |
Linkster, wouldn't it be great if there was an organization that focused on growing and protecting the business? It's difficult but not impossible.
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I think its very possible especially if you give the perks due the traffic generators and ensure the sponsors realize that the traffic doesnt come cheap like they do in the mainstream world already.
Have you noticed the amount of sponsors that have sprung up in the last year because they realize that traffic is almost free from us? There are many benefits for a WM that could be put in that organization, as long as the overall path is to the promotion of the biz long term and not just for one companies benefit like so many of the splinter organizations that exist out there today. |
I don't Tommy's fantasy was to change the entire biz model.
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The 'bottom line' is this is a three way street - sponsor = provider of goods/service, LL and TGP owners = provider of media, much like radio, tv, print and submitters=provider of adverting copy, a kin to ad agencies. We all need each other. |shake| |
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bah... I wish that were true. But the way I see it is somewhere down the line we're all connected to the US laws in some way or another. If it isn't the webmaster living in US, it's the processing company, if it's not the processing company its the host, if its not the host, its something else. True you could have a company that used all non-US resources but as it stands right now, I say about 75% of online webmasters are connected to the US in some way or another. They would either have to really switch up how they do business, or comply to the rules. My being in Canada just means I know all too well what this saying means "When the elephants dance, the mice get stomped" |pink |
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Our site and one other had clean gallery links with a couple of semi blind links - "click here for more tgp galleries" or "visit our other tgp for more galleries" type of thing that many "clean" tgps use. In general, the cleaner the site, the better the conversions. We primarily focused on the niche/hardcore nature of the protected galleries. We charged $10.00/month. I agree with the sentiments expressed by several regarding the fact that competition will drive things to the lowest common denominator - free porn. But, by gaining trust of your surfers and providing them higher quality, high res galleries featuring hardcore porn in a non hassle environment, money can be made. From a submitters standpoint, all I can say is that the hardcore galleries in the protected area converted at a rate I have not seen since we dropped the project. It was only a three month project with about 5 or 6 tgps participating, but the results were encoraging. |
How stoned were you when you came up with this idea? J/K
Though, a good linklist has enough content on it to where it is worth a subscription. Making it member based would stop SE spiders in their tracks though. |
Wow... definitely something to think about - I mean, just look at all the responses and tangent ideas posted already in this thread (plus the ones everyone is keeping secretly for themselves ATM - lol).
An idea that inspiring is definitely worth a try... would love to cover a story on an experiment like this and see what happens! |thumb |
There is a way to introduce this type of idea gradually to surfers, without killing traffic.
We've developed a way of charging the surfer a few cents for each link he follows, rather than asking him to pay for your whole TGP by subscription. Here's a demonstration TGP site that shows the kind of thing I'm talking about : http://www.demotgp.com The block of thumbs in the middle are all charged at 10c each. You can come down to 1c. Look at the url, and you'll see that the link is encrypted. But pay 10c (or whatever) and you're taken to the gallery. If you tried to do this on your main TGP, of course the surfer would run a mile. But you could think about charging the surfer to follow links in your archive. Or make "specially recommended" links 5c each. The surfer has to get a PayAsYouClick.com account to follow these links, and that's of course the barrier. But once the surfer sees that there is a now huge amount of content available from 1c to $2, they do sign up pretty well. There's some other examples on that page of how to charge him for content - do some clicking and you'll see what I mean. Coming back to your TGP, you and your submitters know that the only people following those paid links (even at 1c) have proved they're able and willing to spend. So suddenly you've got fantastically qualified traffic going to those galleries. No sensible sponsor is going to begrudge you charging the surfer 1c per click for listing his gallery like that. The real icing on the cake is that when you introduce surfers and they sign up for an account, you receive 50% commission (after processing) of everything he spends on ANY sites, EVER. So just exposing the surfer to this on your TGP is a new revenue stream, even if he doesn't fancy paying for links yet. We've got more than 100 live sites using this now, so surfers are going to come across it more and more. If the TGPs get behind this, they have the power to make this a reality. I'd be grateful for your feedback on this idea. Regards Danny |
You know, this does bring up a question - can you legally charge for access to other peoples sites/galleries?
If I had a program that had hosted galleries & free sites & someone was charging people to look at them, I think I might have to call my lawyer. |
Of course, that would hold true whether you are charging for access to the whole TGP, or charging for the individual links.
I wouldn't suggest for a moment that you'd charge for individual links without making it part of your own submit terms, so that everyone was happy with it. But remember that as a sponsor, the traffic coming to you from that kind of link would be from surfers who had been prefiltered. So the bandwidth bill goes down, and the conversions go up. That sponsor could also charge for extra clips etc on that gallery page, knowing that the surfers that hit the gallery can make payments of up to $2 with one click. Effectively these would be preveiwing the subscription content - exactly what they're doing now for free, but able to charge say 20c per clip. Remember also that what you are charging for is access to your "directory". The page you're linking to is freely available - you're not selling their content. As a link list owner you can legally copyright your links. So if you can do that why couldn't you charge surfers to use them. Danny |
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The submitter provides content, hosting, banwidth, and his time and work expecting traffic from linklist/TGP. Making money out of that for free is not a good idea. Neo |
One of the problems I see is the Visa thing. They might not like the idea of all the freesites/galleries not being on "your" domain.
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There's a lot of work behind a LL. The charge would be for reviewing and providing links to the best porn out there and some other goodies. A submitter is never forced to submit to a LL/TGP. They can either submit to LL A and get 5000 mixed hits, or submit to LL B and get less traffic, but pre-approved. I know that I would take both ;) But the legal issue is interesting. It's the submitter that hosts the content, and he's not charging anything. It's the LL webmaster that only has a link to the free site that is charging. Common sense says that it's all good, since the person that is using the content doesn't charge anything. |
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Absolutely. That's why it is such a good idea. The sponsor gets adult-filtered traffic that's ready to make payments with one click. Nobody's suggesting the TGPs should make money at the sponsors' expense - whether you charge for the links individually or by getting the surfer to buy a subscription to the TGP. That would be an unsustainable business model, and I think we've had enough of those already! PayAsYouClick can also be used to (for example) charge the surfer 20c (say) for 24 hours to reach your archive / premium links page, ie a short-duration subscription to a particular part of your TGP. |
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Then of course as a submitter you`d have to wonder about the benefit of being listed at a ll or tgp as such. Would it be like the internet that once surfers pay for access they believe everything else is or should be free? Therefore not being very productive or finding another place to surf after thier needs are not exactly met. Like prepaying to be presented a sponsor. I know I would hate to pay to be advertised to.
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But it might improve your shopping experience and be worth the small 'surfing' fee- guarantee no popups, blind links and BS like that. Sort of like paying a small fee to get rid of a high-powered used car salesman. |
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When we launched everyone said surfers wouldn't pay a cent each to view pictures because they're free everywhere else. That was just plain wrong. We watch surfers all the time click 300 pictures in an evening at 5c each, then come back for more the next day. The same COULD be true for links if they're marketed right, and you guys sure have got the traffic to make that pay if you get it right. But I don't pretend to know for sure what the best way of doing that is. We're just providing the tools for you to do it whatever way you can make it work. Danny |
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maybe it will have to be like your idea one day because of legal issues, maybe free access to adult related material will be prohibited... just my thoughts I want to share with you all. time will show us |
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I really have no doubt you could make a few bucks on the idea. I think what everyone wonders is "how much?". But it sounds like a great plan should the law decide to really clamp down on unprotected content!
I think it could even work in the current climate given real value to surfers and promoted right. Hell what have`nt we sold yet?! |
I have no doubt that this would work. Especially if you catered to a very specific niche.
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Whether you choose to charge surfers a subscription-style price to view a section of your links, or charge him for each link he follows, the real power lies in what you do with him then.
Let's say the idea moves ahead a few steps, and you have TGPs charging surfers to view their links with PayAsYouClick accounts. An increasing number of surfers are persuaded to get an account, so those surfers are hitting sites able to make a payment of up to $2 with one click on a payment link. No big decision, no worries about anonymity or scams etc, just click on the thumb and that 2 minute clip is yours for a dollar. The rest of the industry won't just ignore this, nor will they reach for their lawyers, they'll move to take advantage of it. So the sponsors will start to build galleries with a few free clips like now, but links to a load more of their content priced at 20c a clips etc. This is irresitable for surfers. Its like a Las Vegas slot machine - every extra payment is so tiny, there's no reason to stop. That's how we get surfers spending $20 in an evening, never mind a month. Of course if the surfer really likes what he's found, he'll stop paying per-click and buy a full subscription. But this is the important bit. The way our system is set up, the TGP owner or submitter will earn around half of everything their traffic spends on those sponsor sites. The sponsor's happy because he's getting pre-filtered traffic that ready to spend. And the TGP owner is happy because by driving the surfers to the best sites, he's going to make a hefty percentage of everything that surfer spends. This isn't a dream for us, this is what we've got going right now. We've got webmasters of all shapes and sizes buliding sites with videos, niche pictures etc, and converting traffic better than they did on subscriptions. And now, we've got sponsors building pay-per-click versions of their sites, having already tested the idea and found that it converts new surfers without reducing signups. What we haven't yet got is the mainstream TGPs and Link Lists. I hope that by offering this as a model, you'll see that we've got something worth looking at. |
It'll only take one sponsor to call a lawyer to put an end to it. I really don;t see how you can charge for access to someone else's site.
This issue is an old one - remember back when AVS sites were very popular? A lot of sponsors would not let you use their free content on AVS sites because you were selling access to their material. Same thing applies here. |
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In this case, the sponsor's gallery remains freely available. You're charging the surfer for providing him with a link. You own the link. It's like selling a directory. There's no legal issue, but of course you'd want to talk to the sponsors first and do it in a way that benefitted them, and would grow sustainably. |
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Don't forget: there are still a few old-fashioned webmasters left who are actually buying content to make into TGP/LL galleries! And who says that then the gallery should be still limited to 16 or 20 pictures, 4 or 6 movies... A submitter could make a little larger teaser particularly for this system - I certainly wouldn't mind the traffic as long as it is not double charged (meaning; me as a submitter and the surfer to see it - you can milk a cow only so long). Should probably be better quality traffic. I would think from the legal point of view the TGP/LL is rather charging for their service, not the content as such... And otherwise the TGP/LL owner could maybe pay a percentage TO the submitter as a sub-license fee! Now that would be a lovely new concept: get finally paid for submitting! I always thought that would be only fair!!! (It certainly wasn't such a minefield when I used a micro-payment with my own galleries - since the content was licensed to me.) |
Greenguy good point!
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Just getting back into this biz, but here goes a knee jerk reaction -
1- Free porn won't go away, period, as of course this biz grew the internet. 2 - Sponsor(s) and their content has grown exponentially, a very very bad thing in my view. 3 - LL/TGP owners would like to get paid for the countless hours of reviews, costs of cheater script programming... Tommy not knocking your idea, but just for a minute think of moving the left hand to right hand. What IF?? LL/tgps required SPONSORS pay to get listed on your LL for promoting them? Given a sliding scale fee (to be determined, PPC?), as some LL obviously can't produce hits like others. Tommy - what would you charge BangBros to list a single link/gallery that will be seen by how many thousands, REGARDLESS of the other WM link codes?? If you're a sponsor, then you're a sponsor and you must be willing to forgo capital to promote your product. It's called Advertising Dollars.. quicken has a category for it. If I link to a free site with your content or banners then I'm promoting YOUR product, not mine. My product is MY Link List, my product is the ad views that I can deliver. If Ford underwrites a series for Fox... do you think Ford would allow any other car company to advertise on this series?? Basically I'm saying that instead of surfers to pay, it might be time for Sponsors to Pay for results, like any other business model on the planet except, so far, the adult biz. Would this be a pain in the ass for them? Hell yes. But I don't feel a damn thing for them I've been sending them free traffic for years. If I send them 50khits through the galleries and my own traffic, that should be worth something. (and in your case tommy, gg x ??) Play this thought for a bit - Hundreds/thousands of CCbill type, no investment sponsors go out of biz. (and chargebacks go away too) Millions and millions of gallery pages no longer link to anything, oh well. True big time sponsors would have to hire a full time - LL/tgp coordinator. (like a real biz would do) Less Free content, less banned urls, easier workload for us. You can't suck blood from a turnip, go for the deep pockects! (isn't that a lawyers creed or something) Surfers, are surfers, and they always will be... don't charge them, ever.. (just keep your hook sharp) Just my thoughts... |
As a follow up -
Who ran through Millions and Millions in the past 18 months?? GG?? Tommy?? the Hun?? OR Sponsors?? OR Surfers???? |
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