Useless Warrior the "so what" is that google frowns upon you linking to sites that are penalized and may penalize you for it if you link to enough of them.
How do I know? A page that used to have pr that now does not is a pretty good sign. If they do not show up in the serps, that's another good sign.

I've been doing this for 11 years now and have never pulled links other than when the page that I was linking to either went away, re-directed, tried to install viruses, changed the page that I was linking to to an advertisement, etc. That is the case here with the exception that I am also pulling links to pages that are obviously penalized by google. IMHO the purpose of a link exchange is so that both parties benefit from it. If one party is possibly bringing the other down, then obviously that is not a fair exchange.

Along those lines, if I keep trades to a "bad neighborhood" and hurt my own site obviously I am also not doing right for the other good sites that I'm linking with.

Because most people agree that linking to what Google considers "bad sites" will also "hurt" you Google-wise. We don't always know FOR SURE what sites are bad, but there are indicators. The things I have mentioned here, and in my other thread seem to be indicators. At least that is what *I* believe. And, since it is my site, then what *I* believe matters. |loony|

Does this mean that you think my LL is now a bad neighborhood since I notice you have pulled all my category trades?

|popcorn|

I guess when your a bad neighborhood you dont get no notice

Google rot is affecting the whole adult arena, including some of the biggest people, and has been hitting the midsize and small linlists particularly hard.

We were discussing this in another thread.

There's not a lot of evidence that google rot is caused by "linking to bad neighborhoods", and a lot of evidence that it is caused by:

1. Heavy reciprocal linking.
2. Heavily duplicated anchor text.
3. Lack of one-way incoming links.
4. Heavy phrasing - too many related keywords on pages.
5. As well as the clear fact that by google's standards 99% of all adult sites are spam, because they are affiliate sites whose primary purpose is to drive traffic to sponsors.

The whole form and structure of the midsized or small linklist is just begging to be google-rotted.

But betraying each other because we want to preserve our income is going to fuck us all in the end, because it's not like we don't all want to preserve our income. We're all here to make a profit. If one starts because google is shitting on everybody these days, why should anybody honor their trades?

There has to be a more effective solution, or at least a compromise.

Linkster, I'm looking at my old category link trades and don't see any to linkforsex.com. Is that the domain that you're referring to? For some reason you're listed in the free sites area (not the link exchanges section) of some of my categories, but not all of them. I'm kinda puzzled on this one? How long ago did we do a trade? The only thing that I can think of is that I had a person working for me that may have put your links there instead of the in the link exchange section. I did not pull any links to your site. I'd be happy to add them if you wish.

Bill - I agree with all 5 of the things you posted. I have been trying to address those exact things on my pages recently. The issue I have is that a lot of people consider this all a "bunch of BS". Which, to me, means that they will not do ANYTHING to try to "fix" the problems on their sites. I am just trying to better my site. Like I said, I am trying to see where other people stand on this as well. Not really getting much of a "discussion" though.

I truly enjoy watching people and their knee-jerk reactions to things they cannot possibly quantify. This makes me respect circle jerk TGP owners who bypassed all this nonsense. No need to worry about those pesky and uncooperative search engines.

Preacher created this topic to warn about links he chose to pull due to dead and abandoned sites, not SE voodoo. He has asked me why I don't pursue link trades since I so obviously have very few on my sites. Now he knows why: my fellow webmasters are crazy. I'll stick with whatever the SEs trickle my way and play with purchased traffic, thank you very much.

personally I think that the algo needs to be adjusted for adult sites and I hope in the coming months that it will be

I have been doing things to make my site better for google bot

and I too am gonna look at my trades next as I have trades on my index and trades on my main page

Should we keep trades with categories that are listed in the supplemental index?

Certainly not! Dump them ASAP. You do NOT want to be associated with such scum.

Here are the golden rules of link trading, which you should all live by:
1. Never trade links with any page which doesn't appear in the first five results of a site:domain.com search.

2. Avoid link trades with domains which have a poor consonant:vowel ratio. Less than 3:1 is considered a questionable ratio by Google.

3. Domains with more than two consecutive vowels are improperly discriminated against by Google. (They are working on this, but for now, you shouldn't trade links with such domains.)

4. Google hates foreigners, and music by the band Foreigner, with the exception of Hot Blooded, though I don't know how that will help.

5. Any site with any page listed as supplemental is to be avoided, EVEN IF they appear to rank very well for quality search terms.

6. Avoid trading links with sites with a lower Alexa ranking than you.

7. Always trade links with domains whose index Page Rank, when added to yours, will be a combined total of "10." (Pay very close attention to this rule and verify the consistency of your trades' PR weekly.)

You should know that supplemental pages do not rank at all for quality search terms or hardly any terms at all. That's because they are in the supplemental index and not the main index.

You should know that Google doesn't really like the song Hot Blooded.

look at all the sites in the main index that dont get any traffic from google

pornhitzman if you think my LL is a risk to your site, pull my links and that we be fine

I think that google has made a mistake with your site and you'll probably get things back to normal after the next update.

And so we all slip further down the slippery slope of FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt).

Instead of cooperating to create the kind of linking that google is rewarding right now, we try to cut each other's throats in a vain attempt to save ourselves and be the last one standing, without even trying to understand what is actually happening.

This is what the betrayal of linking trust leads to.

When we most need each other, to create unique anchor text, to give each other one-way links, trusting that our partners will fairly give us one way links in return, and keep those links up no matter what happens, we betray each other.

Instead of working on creating more unique and original content, structured the way google's algos now reward, we start an inquisition that takes us nowhere, based on bad information, bad models, and suspicion.

Oh yeah, that's real smart.

Just so y'all know, I guess I'll now be spending the remainder of the day checking my index page trades - wondering who's pulled my links because they fear that some of my pr0 cat pages may rub stink onto their sites. Just what I wanted to do! |banghead|

I'd just like to point out that this thread has no PR (not even a PR0)

... and I would like to point out that the abbreviation PR is used in medical circles - per rectum - eg: up you arse!

DD

It shows a PR0 for me. And, I don't think anyone is talking about NEW pages without PR. All of the pages *I* am talking about are YEARS old. I believe most of them HAD PR, but no longer do. Do you not believe that is indicative of a "problem" in Google's eyes??

BTW, I traded with Marc when his site was barely a month old...I would be willing to bet he had no PR.

....and I would like to point out that many people here think you are an arrogant, condescending prick who never "joins" a discussion, but simply degrades everyone you believe to be of inferior intelligence.|yawn|

Amen, sister.

man you guys blow shit up to beyond what it is worth

I am certainly not trying to blow things up. I believe I came in this thread very friendly and have pretty much remained that way. I was trying to have an adult conversation. Hoping to learn something from some of my much smarter peers *cough* Linkster *cough*, and trying to get some thoughts on what other people believed regarding what I posted. I also think that MANY people do not post in these types of threads because people like UW and DD act like assholes and it just isn't worth the aggravation.

If they don't believe in this "SEO hocus pocus crap" then why not do the mature thing and just not join the discussion?

Sorry...kind of went off a little, but god damn...it's like dealing with my kids at work.|loony|

|popcorn|

Dammit.....stop making me crave popcorn.|club|

Nobody is quite sure what it means, as far as I've been able to determine.

Other than that it started occuring about 16 months ago, and tends to bobble, that is, it comes and goes.

I have yet to hear a convincing argument that it represents a penalty.

The bobble implies that it's a toolbar artifact.

I have many interior pages on my domains that were zeroed out as part of this zeroing trend - including a large number of linked freesites. But in this latest tbpr update about half of them came back, many with higher pr than before. And I had done nothing to improve their linking.

The same with category pages in my private linklists -odd patterns of pages losing pr, then getting it back.

To make it personal to you, let me ask you, when your domains get hit with this strange tbpr bobbling, or maybe some other google phenomenon that we haven't seen yet, you're saying it's perfectly fine with you if all your link partners drop their links to you?

You are reacting to this as if it were a penalty when there is no good evidence that it's a penalty.

What it is evidence of, is that we are dealing with a NEW google. We need to study what it's rewarding and build and link with it's new preferences in mind.

To do that, we need to cooperate. Build value for our surfers, work together to recreate our linking patterns, test new ideas, share knowledge, and trust each other to honor the linking deals we've made.

Why do we need trust? Because it's clear that one-way links are what google rewards now. You can't do one-way linking in business if you don't trust that the people you give links to aren't going to secretly drop their links to you to vampirize your relevance.

When your child is doing something ignorant, like picking his nose and eating it, do you sit idly by and watch, or do you speak up and yell, "stop eating your fucking boogers, you dumb little waterhead"?

Snot is not consumed in my home.

Hi Bill...I appreciate you at least giving your opinions.

First - I think I am far from having knee jerk reactions. I started the other thread over 2 months ago, have joined this discussion, and have not yet removed links.

Second - I had a discussion at length with someone on ICQ last night about figuring out how to make Google happy. It still involved linking with people, but in different ways. I am not just abandoning all my link trades. BTW, I had that (and other) conversations on ICQ because people wanted a calm conversation with me instead of entering into this pissing contest. They contacted me.

Third - I think if there is a problem with my site, and people drop it until that problem is fixed because they believe it harms them, then that would be a wise business decision.

I have never lost PR on any of my internal pages, so I am very unfamiliar with what you are describing. That is why I started the original thread, and joined this one. I am always eager and willing to learn.

Oh for the love of God we get it. Jesus Christ how does your wife put up with you? I swear I would probably stab you in your sleep.

I can't add much SEO science to the discussion (I don't spend much time on SEO boards, and as it has been pointed out elsewhere, unless you're employed by G it's only opinion anyway), but I can share what my LL has been through in the roughly 2 1/2 years it's been online.

It started out with all pages PR0 (naturally). Incrementally index went up to PR4 and almost all cat pages to PR3. Then suddenly ALL cat pages dropped to PR0. Some months later they were all back up to PR2/3. I just checked again and some pages are now PR3, the rest (most) are 0. Index/main page have remained stable. If Google is punishing me, they can't seem to make up their mind.

This leads me to believe the G either
1. Don't have a clue, or
2. Are trying, but can't get it right, or
3. Are changing the rules faster then WMs can catch up, or
4. Any combination of the above.

I try to stay informed of the most common-sense SEO "rules". I no longer aggressively pursue straight reciprocal trades with every Tom, Dick and Harry. I base my trades and whether or not I keep them up on the honesty of the webmaster and the quality of the site. That's about it. I'm off to check on my trades now (haven't done it in a looong time). :D

jennym we have a index trade and thats good

me and captainJ had index and category and I got pissed off that he dropped my cat links without even a message, so thats ok

and if he would of said "man I think your no PR condition is affecting my ranking - I would of happily said take the links down and see what happens, and thats it....no hard feelings...we still have a index trade

and these trades are years old he atleast could have asked what happened to my pages and I could have told him I added 15 category pages all at once and my other pages didnt carry over any PR juice or I think its a toolbar error... or the same thing thats happening to 1000s of other legit webmasters

and I had category PR for years


me and spaceman have index and category on one of his LL - thats ok


and what bill was saying about his pages and free sites are doing the same thing as mine

the people were gonna partner with in link trades should get togther and work out a new scheme that google likes...

but pulling peoples links behind there back is plain wrong


and I dont no why you two insulted DD?

I have noticed people losing PR. That seemed like a "penalty" to me. I just wanted to discuss what other people thought. The only time I have pulled links and didn't inform someone is if they had already voided the trade (by removing the pages we were trading with) or if they were installing crap. That has only been a few sites in the 8 years the site has been up. I would love to get together with people and work out a new linking deal. I am in the middle of re-vamping all of my pages, but anyone who is interested in this should ICQ/email/PM me after next week. Having said that, I still believe that some of my trades are worthless/harmful and I will be checking them all next week.

As for DD, that is twice that I have seen in the last week he has jumped in a thread, not to have an adult conversation, but to degrade the person asking questions. The other thread is here
Of course, he has pretty much always been like that, and I can't fucking stand him. It might be petty of me, but that is how I feel.

This board is supposed to be a community where people can talk about various ideas, thoughts, and opinions. Instead, it has pretty much turned into a high school clique board where many people are afraid to post their honest thoughts and opinions for fear of being attacked. But, I digress.....

I read a lot of stuff and you hear some saying that googles algo is out of control and its so fucked up that they cant even get it right again

also with the recip style linking going to the way side, just think of all those free sites we have on our LL not giving us next to nothing back as far as linking power goes, you see 1000s of free sites that dropped PR and so did the passing of link juice

age of site and one way linking from editoral sites that tell people how good our sites are and other factors is what is needed to do good in google, some seo experts say

with the newer algo a LL around the age of my site has next to nothing of a chance of doing really really good in google right now IMO

Well, when i first noticed this occuring months ago I surfed thru my trades and studied how it affected the se networks of a bunch of my trading partners.

That takes me into the network of sites of about a dozen of the biggest se builders here, including dean & jeff (and their network may include your se domains, if you have many domains beyond your primary ll), linkster, jay, gg & mml, and others.

I saw interior pages that I beleived had pr zeroed out everywhere I went. Their was no-one who was immune to it.

(I can't always be sure that interior zeros had been hit by this, that is, they might have been zeros before, but I have surfed all these folks sites multiple times over the years, I'm quite sure that I saw plenty of "main" pages off the index zeroed, plus all or most of the minor pages. on domain after domain.)

Plus, of course, the small linklists and subsidiary sites of all the small linklist owners here, almost all or many of whom have had the interior zeros at some point, as has been discussed here a fair number of times in the past 16 months.

So, if you haven't seen it, I don't know what to tell you. Go over your domains and friend's domains and look for it. It's happening as we speak.

---

I gather you feel that your linklist offers such unique value to the surfers that you can afford to say "fuck you" to other webmasters, and you don't think you will gain the rep of a linkdropper from this. That's your position, that's your right.

My position is that this is a dangerous road, and, to boot, it's not a solution to this problem.

I'm not a linklist owner. If you guys want to start a linkdropping war it's not that big a deal to me.

I am a linker, and for as long as I've been a linker, the general opinion has been that linkdropping is something only cheaters do.

Did you not read the multiple times I have said I haven't pulled any links over this? So if I no longer want to trade, and I email someone and inform them I no longer want to trade, then I am a cheater? That's a bit dramatic don't you think? I don't think my LL is special at all....that's the problem.

I believe I have always been very polite to people who have come at me politely. I really try not to get involved in drama and pissing. I just asked for opinions. I don't ever like to make enemies. That being said, at the end of the day, I am here to make money. I have children to feed and clothe and put through college. I really can't worry about hurt feelings. And, I think it is childish to have hurt feelings over a business discussion anyway.

She's an aethiest.
If I knew you were willing to sleep with me, I probably would have tried a softer approach. ;)

I've seen pretty much the same thing over the past few months and it looks like a few others have too. I never gave it a second thought. I figure I'm in a transition period. It's biz as usual for me. I'm not losing any sleep over something I can't control or know how to. :)

The few responses I have received from my notices have been positive ones because the webmasters know that they had closed submits or stopped updating and totally understood where I was coming from and I thank them all for that. |thumb

And I gave |greenguy| something to talk about on Tuesday night so you should all be thanking me or all we'd hear about is hi-def programming and hockey results!

Ahhhhhh, my sincere apologies if I misunderstood. I must have misremembered you as saying that you had dropped links. It must have been someone else. I stand corrected, and doubly apologize.

I was mixing up my general concerns about the trust required for linking, and your specific case.

I just want to speak strongly about the importance of linking agreements, and I was concerned that your talk and examples were going to start a panic about linking, about who's cool and who's not, and get people started on a cycle of punitive and quiet linkdropping.