I believe that the people who dont see them when joining and find out later will become a non joiner later

I've looked at some and most are visible...

IMO if your worried about it, educate your surfers about it on your site on some pages of it, take care of your surfers and hopefully they will take care of you by keep joining your pay links

cross sales are a way of life for the PPS programs, if they hide them then it is not acceptable...

IMO it's far worse to have link trades with other sites that have those free join email sites that have aggressive popups on there tours

Visa and Mastercard are making too much money to pull out, and even if they did find out (I am almost 100% certain they already know) unless it is illegal activity, they have far bigger things to be worrying about.

The online income that is generated in adult with visa/mc is but a drop in the bucket compared to mainstream non-adult.

-N

Interesting. Can you please point us to some data about this? I'm not sure at all that this is the case.

I agree that pre-checked boxes under the fold is shady at best. I would think that anyone who gets screwed by those has the sense to contact their CC company and get their money back. Next you would have a lot of charge backs and then the companies would stop - right? I wonder why this isn't happening - maybe not enough people fall for this trick?

I have to agree with tigermom, it's devious but if the CC companies were really getting enough complaints (chargebacks) then they would jump in and monitor the vendors. They do this in mainstream so it would be foolish to assume that they don't do it in adult.

I process just under $1,000,000 in credit cards annually in my mainstream businesses, and chargebacks are rare, but the merchant account companies hate them - they cost way more in time and effort than the CC companies will ever recover so if there truly were too many, we'd see a change in the rules.

Possibly, but it is still a lot of money.

Visa proved a long time ago what it thinks about the adult industry and its willingness to say, "fuck you and your money and the headaches you've created." We'd be fucked without Visa - Visa would be fine without us.

Why, what did they do?

Funny when Toby posted this on another forum I asked if he got the Link List guys opinion on it. I figured you guys would have a lot more piss and vinegar then TGP guys and sure enough...lol

blueeee, lol, it's not exactly an ideal scientific experiment you set up there. What I mean to say is if my father brought me to a porn page and asked me to signup I'd start questioning what the hell he was up to and I'd be expecting a |club| behind the head. So I'm pretty sure he was more observant then he'd be in a real situation:

Real situation, hand on dick, trying to join quickly while typing with one hand. There's a good chance you might not notice pre-checked cross sales below the submit button, especially if he's a cheapskate and buying a trial. If someone is buying a trial, it essentially means they want something on the cheap, not an extra $80 in passes. That guy will never buy another membership after that experience.

With all that said though, I do support Toby, but at the same time realize the inevitability of the situation. Sponsors do this because they’re catering to what some affiliates want and they have to keep up with the Joneses. I personally think pre-checked cross sales below the submit is shady as shit, it hurts the business, but it just gets added onto the very long list of things that hurt the industry. I mean when you see a site like XNXX, a once fine traffic source, turning into a tube site giving away 30 minute videos…umm…yeah, you can see as an industry we don’t always do what’s best in preserving what we have.

Do the Russians still hate you? lol. What I mean to say whether you're right or wrong about it's the responsibility of the individual, it's how the individual perceives the situation that matters most.

So when you ban someone from your Link List do they go, "Gee, GreenGuy was completely right, it's all my fault and I'll suffer the consequences of not reading" or will they go, "GreenGuy is a dick"

9 out of 10 banned people would probably go with the Dick line, even if you were completely right. When I reject galleries or ban people, the submitter that screwed up thinks I'm 100% wrong. Whatever, in that situation you can give them the one finger salute because there's 500 more people waiting to replace that one.

However, it's not applicable when it comes to potential customers. Whether it's their responsibility or not, how are they going to feel when they get an $80 bill for a trial membership that they thought they were buying. You can say what's right and wrong till the cows come home, that surfer / customer, is going to think he's right and got ripped off. Unfortunately paying porn customers in this age of free porn on the net, is not so easily replaced.

That's true! . . . . although I was wearing my lab coat & goggles at the time :D

While there is no doubt that adult generates big money, as an example compare it to the billion dollar yearly industry that is just adwords/Ypn. (Yes I know adult uses it but it's a minor % compared to mainstream)

That is just 1 industry in mainstream. You can also add in the millions made by each of the different publisher networks, such as clickbank, cj, roirocket and so on.

Then there is the shitload that is made pushing Pharma & Replicas.

There is also the multi million dollar field of mlm. Each with it's different areas. One example is payed info forums, with hundreds of thousands of members each paying $99 a month for access.
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As for the Cb issue. A lot of high volume programs use Offshore MA's. They do this as the CB ratio is much higher then the USA level, which gives them more room to work. They also most likely rotate the joins through several MA's so that they don't burn them.

As for customers that claim a CB, you'd be surprised to know that not every customer calls their bank. Most just move on.

-N

In many cases it is not that easy to file a CB. Some banks are a pain in the ass and ask you to get in contact with the program and even ask you for prove of it or threaten you that a CB will automatically cause your CC to be replaced by a new one.

My guess would be that many users will just swallow the 80 bucks and move on as you said, but they will draw their consequences: they will never ever join a porn site again. They will use Google to locate a tube site and enjoy their payback from the porn industry.

BTW: I just noticed a similar screen on a signup page from the same biller, where it would cost around 110$ if the surfer wasn't aware of the prechecked buttons and the small text on the very bottom of the page.

I found this cross-selling scheme on a lot of programs and as a revshare affiliate I was having the imagination that - under NATS at least - I would be receiving a shave-free share of the sales. I am sure it's not a NATS problem, but it certainly shows, that NATS programs have a possibility to play crazy games with the term 'shave free' ... or am I getting this wrong?

There are lots of ways to "shave" the affiliate that don't involve manipulating the data after the sale. I'd have to agree that cross sales on revshare is certainly one of many.

However, that wasn't my concern when I started this thread. I'm more concerned with the deceptive use of cross sales to take advantage of the customer. Whether they actually charge back or not, they're not likely to buy a porn site membership again anytime soon.

I was thinking the same exact thing the other day when I started reading this thread. The reason recips have to be above the Enter link is because surfers don't look below the Enter link. When a purchaser gets to the purchase place I would think he stops scrolling. If a checked box is below where he makes his purchase it's the same as recips under the enter link and usually doesn't get seen.

Ask and ye shall receive.

Twistys now has no-xsell link codes available for both their revshare and PPS programs, 60% vs 70% and $25 vs $30. They're in the process of adding FHG's with those same options.

BosBucks have said that they now also have a no-xsell option, and OCCash have said they will be adding one too.

It also appears that JuggCash (Brazzers et. al.) have now moved their pre-checks above the submit. Not sure if all the pre-check threads on the boards was the motivation or if perhaps a processor took them to task. Either way it's a step in the right direction, albeit a small one.

True, but some percentage will definitely charge back, and given the punitively low allowable chargeback ratios that Visa/MC have imposed on the adult industry, I have a hard time believing that these sorts of tricks are really good business for the sponsors.

I agree with Greenie that it's up to the buyer to pay attention to what he's agreeing to, but I also think that the practices that Toby is pointing to are gonna bite the sponsors in the ass.

That example Toby posted up is very deceptive, it's not clear at all what you're getting.

$80 could mean alot to some people that can't afford it so shame on the desperate sponsors that mislead people like this.
If they need a fix that badly they only have to say and we'll have a whip round.

I'll have to agree with EC on this one. Those programs that have the prechecked stuff hidden from view are the ones I have the real problem with. It's shady, it's deceptive, and it's for all intents and purposes straight-up thievery.

Having them visible on the page is nothing compared to that.

This is good to see happening. |thumb