ahhhh NOPE!!! I am purposely being abusive to ahhhh MEN??? to get my point across about respecting others.

Why the fuck should I respect anyone that doesn't respect women enough to consider that they might just like to have some consent.

I know that people are complaining about condescending posts and the like, they are assuming I am talking to them. I am not making blanket statements, many people already agree with me and some chose to post about it. Others don't post but speak privately about it. To each their own.

Still others come up with poorly thought out or worded explanations as to why they think that site is legal, not offensive to them (did they wonder if it is offensive to women? or do they care?)

I don't give a shit what people do in a consentual context but I will express my distaste and concern for non-consentual porn which people believe more and more to be "real"ity porn.

Heh people really do this shit.....I for one have a conscience...enough to speak out and say when I think something is going too far.

Got lots of attention so far right? The site owners are also sitting back saying "bad attention is just as great at getting the word out as good attention" everyone knows this marketing fact...just look at any post on GFY


You do what you gotta do and I make just as many apologies for hurting some feelings ha ha ha as rage does for making a violence against women site.

|deadhorse |zzzzzzzzz

Susanna, really, sometimes less is more, you know?

I find ethical and political discussions to be the most interesting things that come up on boards, and like other people here, I'm "on your side" in many ways, but it's hard to get people to listen to your side when you're saying that everyone who's not avidly agreeing with you supports rape. And I'm a *chick* saying that this time around, so maybe it might sounds more palatable coming from me.

I don't agree at all with the idea of "assaulting" sleeping women, but I also personally like fantasy, roleplay, and kink with my sex and porn, so long as it is clearly defined as fantasy. My problem with the site is about context and content-framing, which make all the difference in my mind. (Context is a great topic for banter, and I think anyone profiting from content that is not of themselves naked has sometime to say about how they frame their porn.)

I do think this is an open-ended discussion, and I'd love to see it keep going, so it's a shame that in your passion for women's rights, I think you're killing the thread.

Trixie (also female) and I both proposed that non-consensual fantasy sites provide some sort of disclaimer and make it abundantly clear to surfers that it's just roleplay. I see it as a good chance for webmasters to provide a smidge of education to their surfers about kinky lifestyles and about the important elements of trust, consent, and communication.

I think that roleplay is really fucking hot, and as an adult, I can see roleplay porn and say, "this is not real, these are actors", and it can still be fun. I think a move away from text that seemingly glorifies "real" non-consensual sex and a move towards "fantasy roleplay" is a good idea, and as I said before, attracts the real "fantasy" folk, and repels the scum you don't want to do business with anyhow. It seems like a win-win to me.

Do you have a sort of, well, positive solutions? Or, are you saying that any portrayal on non-consensual sex shouldn't exist at all? Content, or copy?

After much thought and looking over my stories category on my link list (that was an eye-opener) and seeing that Rage has put a disclaimer on the mother-daughter tour - I believe I will be starting a little promoting of them :)

Being very old, it probably just takes me longer to get things to sink in |dizzy|

I've been following this post from the beginning reading all the pros and cons.. and i have the same internal feeling that i have when i hear GWB speak.. either your are "for" everything I say or you are not a patriot.. etc..

What, for me, it boils down to is that I have a choice. I, as a wm, can choose to promote or not promote sites that I personally find violates my ethics or just that I don't think I'd be able to do a good job at writing copy for. There are 1000's of sites out that that I can do a GOOD job promoting.

For example: I promote Trixie and all the sites that fall under WebWhoreBucks. I love her stuff, i love the sites, i love the writing and i love promoting her. (see my siggy if you want to promote her too)

BUT i do not promote her "bloody trixie" site myself. i do post her FHG on my TGP but I don't actively promote that site. I don't feel I could do justice to the copy I'd be writing. I don't feel I'd be able to portray that in such a manner that would respect what she is trying to do and sell the surfer at the same time. It's my option.

Likewise with RAGE.. there are some sites I instantly took to and some that I'll leave alone. This doesn't make me anti-fem, or promoting rape because i'm selling their Fucked Tits or Creamed feet sites.. just my preference as a wm.

Before the board crash a few years ago..i'd written a post on ethics among adult webmasters over a site i found while surfing that showed big "african' men in tribal dress with pictures stolen from the movie Shaka Zulu, fucking little white women they'd 'carried' off to their village.. I found it disgusting and was pretty angry about their stealing the pictures from Shaka. But what i realized after my anger settled down was the best way for me personally to 'rage' against this was to NOT promote that sponsor AND to portray interracial love in a good and positive way.. choices..

|blinky|

hmm for some reason i'm very wordy today..

|pimpin

If you have read all my posts then you know I dont have a problem with fantasy, I do however have a problem with the fantasy being about non-consentual sex. Its not thread killing to "say it like it is". You have chosen to keep this thread going too ha ha ha

I have also said that I would love to see a disclaimer (linkster, the mother daughter site is not an issue to me, consenting adults, related or not, can do as they please ADULTS...incest to me is about children...again my opinion but I am not varying from what my opinion is on consent and non-consent).

This is not about womens rights...I have never said it was about womens rights. At the moment it is womens rights being trampled on. I am not a feminist. I do not want women placed above men ya da ya da. I would like to see a smidge of consentualism.

I have also said in a post that a domain change would be half the battle. Of course this is not terribly hard but it means admitting something which I am not sure that the site owners will admit. Time will tell I guess.

I agree with some others that it could just get them in trouble one day which everyone else will pipe in and say "so its their business what do you care". I care that my business will be damaged by people pushing the limit.

I had a conversation with someone recently about how fuckin hot the site would be if they removed the non-consent. If they talked about sleeping-sex vs. sexual assault. Most everyone has had someone wake them up during sleep by slowly caressing, sucking or whatever. It is hot, it is pleasure. Heck I would buy em a new domain ha ha ha

The text still talks of non-consentualism which is not even the somnophilia kink. It is the sadist kink, the rapist kink what ever, its about harming women and taking what they want whether the gal wants it or not.

I have offered to re-write some text for them, no strings attached, if they didnt think it was hot they didnt have to use it.

I say portrayal of non-consent is never appropriate. Its not even a fantasy to have non-consentual sex. Sorry. It is true deviant behaviour.

I might even like a front of tour solo disclaimer that says "this is fantasy role play, we intend no harm, we dont want you to hurt women" etc.

What are your positive solutions?

The URL says it all... sleepASSAULT.com. And the text on the tour makes it a cut-and-dry case, IMO. It's not a sex-while-she's-sleeping fantasy site; it's a sexaul-ASSAULT-while-she's-not-conscious fantasy site.

There's no getting away from the word ASSAULT in the url and title, legally or ethically.

Not cool RageCash, IMO.

as·sault

1.
A violent physical or verbal attack.

2.
a. A military attack, such as one launched against a fortified area or place.
b. The concluding stage of an attack in which close combat occurs with the enemy.

3. Law.
a. An unlawful threat or attempt to do bodily injury to another.
b. The act or an instance of unlawfully threatening or attempting to injure another.

4.
a. Law. Sexual assault.
b. The crime of rape.

How about fem-dom sites that are offensive to guys? CBT type stuff, etc.? How about anal sites that are offensive to me? How about *any* site that is offensive to *me*? I think its pretty plain here, some are comfy, some are not. Not comfy? Don't promote it. Comfy? Promote it.

Without getting into the whole 'yes but no but' argument, is this site the worst thing any of us have seen? Really? I highly doubt it. I'm by no means as articulate and clever as some of the posters here, but fuck, as was said earlier, I do have *some* semblance of a brain, and sure as hell can make my own choice(s). This thread is on page 4 - wtf? We all sell fantasies, we all sell bullshit.

What another chooses to promote I may not agree with, and what I promote (be it watersports or such) someone else may not agree with. Last I heard, if it's legal, then free speech had a play in there somewhere, much as those of us who disagree with whatever particular aspect of that may not like it.

'2 cents smiley here'

I've made two wordy posts with positive solutions, if you haven't taken the time to read them, I'm not spelling it out again. (Or maybe you have, since you're essentially just re-hashing what I wrote.)

I think you're just getting defensive with that last comment, like you don't want to be upstaged or something. I'm not trying to upstage you, I'd just rather shift this useful thread away from a battle of the sexes.

Meow...

Let's not miss the fact that RageCash.com has gotten absolutely golden press here. Whichever side your on... or even if you dont have a side... you won't soon forget RageCash and its not because of the skin......
controversy = gold
IMHO

For the most part, yes. But I don't think any sponsor wants to be the next E--- C---, lots of press or not.

furrygirl

Take a break and submit another gallery to me :)

I think this deserves highlighting.

I think most people promote things they have no idea how to sell, and it applies extra for amateur or small niche sites. So many of my affiliates sell me as a "horny teen who sucks cock", but when a surfer arrives at my site, it's not at all "teen", and I have little hardcore content. People really should stick to what they know, which is going to benefit everyone's bottom line in the long run.

I have read your posts yes, infact I commented on them being well worded. I have said all those things before you did, there are other threads. You asked me what my positive solutions are...I rehashed what I have already said ha ha ha

You sound like your getting defensive now. We might as well quit this questioning each other since I think its taking this thread in a direction away from the point of it... and oh my is it thread killing?

Back to the regular scheduled discussion of the inappropriateness of having "fantasy sites" on the net about non-consentual sex.

Susanna

It's hard to have a rational, productive debate with someone who can't even decide what they're trying to convince me of. You're really all over the place with your posts, and I don't think I'm the only one who's a bit bewildered.

On the one hand, you're accusing anyone who doesn't hate Sleep Assault of being rapist-sympathizers and trying to profit from hurting women, and on the other, you find fantasy sleep-fucking is extremely sexy.

In the same paragraph, you avail yourself of being labeled a "feminist" and say that this debate has nothing to do with "women's rights", but follow it with, "At the moment it is womens rights being trampled on."

You say that you think a disclaimer and a domain name change would be a good solution, but then you say that all non-consensual fantasies are "never appropriate" and "true deviant behaviour."

Which is it? What are you talking about? Can you, in 200 words or less, define the problem with Sleep Assault, provide a solution, and a plan for how a fix could be implemented? Think of it like a debate class assignment or something. Or should the company just go outside and smash all their hard drives and start making romantic erotica to suit your site?

It's also hard to take someone seriously who ends or segments their sentences with "ha ha ha" or ellipses and doesn't know the correct spelling of what it is that they're arguing about. (Yes, I'm a grammar asshole, because I believe that if one is trying to convey their ideas in a medium of works, they should know how to write. If one is trying to communicate ideas using photos, for example, I expect better than 320x240 web cam stills.) You've repeatedly bragged about your "high IQ" and how you're the smart, conscientious one here, so act like it. Know what it is that you're trying to convey to us, keep on topic, and stick to your guns.

furrygirl, a simple question: Is the picture of a nude 12 year old with a disclaimer that "this isn't porn, it's art" make you feel any better about the content?

Sex is an act between two consenting adults. There is no visible way to determine the consent on this site. In fact, they play up the specific terms that it isn't consentual, that is what makes it so exciting.

It is very hard to justify a site that encourages and panders to would be or wannabe rapists.

Alex

Anyone making book?

LOL

Where have I said I like the site or am seeking to defend porn that pushes "assault" as sexy? Just because I disagree with Susanna's own brand of angry finger-pointing rants doesn't mean that I'm defending rape. (Yet again, why is this discussion all "you're either rabidly against it or your a basically a rapist"?) I have repeatedly stated that I disagree with the site and that I think as it stands now, it caters to shitty people and encourages shitty behavior. I'm not "justifying" copy that tells men that raping sleeping women is hot, I don't get where you read that in my posts.

The positive two cents I'm offering in terms of the site has been about changing the copy and the theme. I could say, "Rage Cash should smash all their hard drives and run away in shame. We should go burn their offices." Since I imagine that the company put a lot of money into making their sites, I figured I'd make the suggestion that the they could rework the site and make something better out of it.

I don't have a problem with role play and kink when clearly presented as role play. Arguing that fantasy force or domination role play is the same thing as rape is incredibly insulting to any one who has actually been raped. As a rational adult, when presented with entertainment which is packaged as fiction, I understand that it is not a guide for action. A movie I watched recently involved a jilted lover killing his ex, but does that mean I'm a misogynist who advocates shooting women who leave you?

Are you really saying that two consenting adults engaging in role play or BDSM in porn is on the same level as CP or actual rape? Just this morning I engaged in some naughty talk while fucking my boyfriend, I guess I'm as bad as people who rape children.

No, but I'm saving it for masturbatory purposes.

I have a Debates and Articulacy Fetish.

I'm singing the never ending shit fight la la la, la la la, la la laaaaaaaaaaaaa

Damn swedguy that totally cracked me up!! Too funny! Thanks for the huge laugh this morning!

Not even commenting on the attack from furry girl. What is the point !!!

I am very pleased to see that rage cash has changed the text on their sleep assault tour! Congrats to them for hearing so many of us in these threads and/or thinking this thru a bit.

That site is very hot now! the title is still a bother but with the text change it is fantasy and the the text change was done very well! I might just put a few links up in some of my hardcore fetish areas.

Incase some of you do not know, I am not a kid, and I am not just about couples sex and for women sex. I have a server full of fetish, some of it very hardcore. I have no reason to change my signature and so I dont bother.

Oh and clerification on consentual...it is a very canadian english spelling of the word. I make zero apologies for spelling errors but since furry girl thought it necessary to educate all of you, I thought I should add that it is an appropriate spelling. You can search yahoo and get 173,000 pages based on this term.

Anyway, Thank You to Rage Cash for changing the sleep assault tour.

yawn |yawn|

I agree with Fonz that this is a bit of a yawn.

I do, however, wish to make one observation.

Many films are about fantasy, some of them violent. If any of us actually did the things that are protrayed in many films, we would be jailed. Maybe I come from a different, more permissible era, than most here, but I can remember when Straw Dogs was released. If any of you here are old enough to remember that movie, it was quite controversial - and quite disturbing.

Regardless of its level of controversy or discomfort, it was still made, released and shown in theatres.

I guess I just can't get too worked up over the production of fantasy sites. Personally, I would not promote the sleeping woman site as it was originally released because it made me uncomfortable. The mother daughter site, if I were still promoting alot of porn, would be one of my top sites already, assuredly (anyway, most incest related laws that are geared toward adults are based on sex between men and women because of the obvious genetic risks involved in a pregnancy). Anyway, I don't see the mother/daughter tag teams that have been on Jerry Stringer heading off to jail.

Mostly, I am simply surprised by how uptight some people who make their coin pushing porn are. When people produce a publication on the net dealing with an issue that has been dealt with theatrically and in literature, I just don't get it. The right of free speech is important and always protected for the simple reason that people who are uncomfortable with it will try to shut it down, and I am somewhat disconerted seeing pornographers of all people slinging judgements about other people's fantasies and publications. Other than child porn or the active production of real imagery that violates others rights, I really don't understand the issue of "ethics" in production content if you are involved in an artistic or entertainment business.

Susanna: your Canadian spelling notwithstanding, you seriously need to take a writing class. You can have the most impassioned, brilliant concept to share with us, but that can't be conveyed if you have the writing skills of a little kid. Sorry, but as I said before, how can anyone take seriously your proud touts of having a "high IQ" when your sentence structure is all over the place and you can't even seem to decide what you're talking about. (I wouldn't even pick on you so much if you hadn't bragged about having a high IQ, BTW.)

Here's a quick lesson:

Ellipsis, those little dots traditionally in clusters of three, are not for ending or segmenting a sentence with, unless you are quoting someone and skipping over some of the source material, and then they should probably have brackets around the ellipsis to show that they were not in the original text. Unless, of course, you're citing material APA style, in which case you would not use brackets. |rock|

Plus, I imagine that even in the cold frozen north of Canada, they teach you people to end questions with a question mark, not three exclamations.

I think you'll find that ellipsis can also be used to show a pause in the flow of a sentence.

Ellipsis, schmellipsis, when did grammar and splelign become such an issue anyway?

"Excuse me, where is the library at?"
"Here at Harvard, we never end a sentence with a preposition."
"O.K. Excuse me, where is the library at, asshole?"

I can't find the "glass houses" smiley. LOL

Scrotum, the reason I'm harping on Susanna is because she's bragged about how smart she is and even said that she has a high IQ. If someone was bragging about what a brilliant webmaster they were, and all their pages were filled with broken links and image sources were going to their C drives, I'd make fun or them more than I would a newbie who wouldn't know any better. I've never claimed to be a perfect writer, and like everyone else, I screw up on spelling and grammar sometimes. I know you want to defend your comrade against the evil tyrant Furry Girl, but even you must know that you'd be up all night outlining the writing mistakes she's made on a single thread.

If we want to get into real glasses houses, and I had the time, I'd be happy to construct *yet another* analysis of why the porn made by your kind is some of the most offensive, anti-woman, and flat-out sexist I've ever seen. Jeez, chicks, you're about as glass house at is gets when it comes to critiquing the messages sent by porn.

Go focus on writing "Obedient Christian Housewives Weekly" or something, because I don't like any smut that marginalizes and stereotypes women, be it made by a man or a woman. Whether a site says that women like to be raped, or that they are so frail that they can only tolerate thinking about sex in "romance" fantasies, they're both saying that women are feeble, submissive creatures who hate sex. Women don't hate sex or need love to have sex, but I suppose some of you prefer making "porn" sites that are frighteningly in synch with the most repressed, right-wing views of female sexuality.

I'm a chick, I like fucking, and I don't need true love and gentle fonts and soft pink to fuck. I don't think I'm alone. And, I don't need anyone telling me that I'm some kind of backwards freakish deviant for not toeing your line of "what women want".

ROFL |pokefun| Now come on Furrygirl, you left yourself wide open there. I couldn't resist.

I've got an English teacher's diploma on the wall. I like to see people write nicely. But this is a webmaster board not an essay competition. I gave up marking people's work ages ago. Now I just try and get the gist of what they're trying to say and respond to that.

You need to relax. Go back to work making your own special brand of porn. We're done here.

Or do you plan to call me a moron again? I love it when you get intellectual in your comebacks.

By the way, if anyone else bothers to read this, you may want to read my long, detailed and quite comprehensive responses to Furrygirl's rather rabid and completely inaccurate assertions about the nature of my particular porn niche here . I don't normally link to other boards but this will simply save me from writing a six page essay in reply on GG&J.

We've had this conversation. We didn't agree. We're done.

Christ in the morning, is this still going on?

I will sum up my thoughts in one tidy little post.

I do not see a thing wrong with any of the Rage Cash sites.

Porn isn't about being pc.

As long as it is legal, promote what you are comfortable with promoting.

There's always going to be someone who doesn't think you should promote a niche.

And it wouldn't matter if all we did was push sites full of nothing but missionary sex between married couples, we are still making our living from the pornography industry.

We're never going to win brownie points for that from the straight world.

OMG we need to start using and writing proper English? I lived my preteens in the northeast and raised in the south with the Latins so I guess I'm fubarded.

As far as this thread goes I only have a problem with their sleep assault site and really don't care what other's opinions are.

I am the very model of a modern Major General |pink

Todays Fact. Money can't buy free advertising. :D

-N

I no speaka ze engrish, but can read and speel:

I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg
The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at
Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a
wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be
in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed
it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid! deos not raed
ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? yaeh and I
awlyas thought slpeling was ipmorantt!

I'm taking beginners Spanish and it is just totally messing up my English grammar and spelling even worse then it was already.

This is easier to read than most of text in some of my submits |monkey