what are you talking about dude? how am i shifting the blame on affiliates? whats the point of having a discussion with someone who doesn't actually read what you've said? |crazy| its MISUSE of software, not the software and its the responsibility of both the program owner and the affiliate to insure that the agreement you have come to is backed up by a functional use of the software they have chosen to use. its very simple so i reeeeealy don't understand why you're having such a tough time getting it.... or maybe you just like to find things to bitch about?

i'll say it one more time: DO SOME INVESTIGATION & DISCOVER THE PROBLEM. if they are misusing the affiliate software and you continue to send them traffic while they do that, who is to blame? both sides are to blame and the responsibility lies in both hands to resolve the issue.

OK, but just exactly what are we supposed to be looking for beyond simply making sure that the links from the hosted galleries have our referral code?

BTW, nice to see you here.

Why is it my job to make sure the sponsors affiliate software is working?

Oddly enough, I do check most of the tours & hosted materials to make sure that the codes pass thru to the join page, but fuck me if you think that's my job!

9 times out of 10, I just delete the codes & move on - I do sometimes let the sponsor know about the problem, but I do not think that it's my responsibility to make sure the program owners have their affiliate software working properly - it's the program owners & the software developers responsibility.

Who has time to do this kind of stuff anyway when there 100's of programs out there that are set up properly?

And what does any of this have to do with our questions about the NATS software?

DamnQ, you mentioned finding the "real" problem.

If programs can so easily turn sour as a result of a software change then how would it be in the best interest of an affiliate to NOT be skeptical of the software?

I don't care if the program owner is the one responsible for mucking up the works. As a business owner, I have to find trends in the market. And if using a particular software usually accompanies a drop in sales, I have little choice in the matter but to adapt. My survival as a business owner depends on it.

Furthermore, as UW pointed out, as an affiliate, I have absolutely no responsability in insuring the success of a program owner's business.

If something is consistently not right, I'm not going to waste my precious time doing research on a topic that's not going to help me run my business so I can fix someone else's problem. Not when I can easily work with people who can fix their own problems. That's just business.

The "real" problem is that I don't think your values are in line with the values of the affiliate marketers who disagree with you.

I think you're missing the point here as well - a lot of us have done our own investigating & most (if not all) of the time, the problem involves a program using NATS.

If most of us see that our ratios & income drop when a program moves to NATS......

Whether it's the software itself, or the room for fucking up the software allows, the trend still forces a decision. |sad|

GG, the point is, most affiliates using NATS *can't* see a real drop in ratios, otherwise NATS would be a dead duck, and it would have been a dead duck long ago.

You wanna read thru this thread again, especially the posts by Danger Dave & Preacher.

I do have a stats run of 20 NATS programs with pre & post totals, but I'm waiting on one more person to get me their stats before I post it.

The point remains that if ratios were so bad across the board, NATS would not be as used as it is. And it isn't popular with sponsors because it gives them tools to shave affiliates, either.

I agree. Affiliates are all just a bunch of ignorant, whining wannabees with nothing better to do than bitch and moan. NATS is perfect and sponsors would never even consider shaving. You heard it from me first. |thumb

Why is it that apologists always pull out the " bashing" line everytime someone questions an action, process etc..

No one is bashing anyone... We have asked some legitimate questions, and as usual those that have the answers have treated us with contempt yet again.

DamnQ - what is your input in this? that you like NATS? Well "whoopee" for you - you could have said that in one line........



Yes.. NATS is coping some heat here and so they should... Legitimate questions have been asked and though they don't believe it(just yet) the opinions posted here do matter, and their product is being damaged.

but that said.... NATS/TMM isn't going to answer shit! because they know they don't have too While program owners continue to shell out the big bucks for their backend software.. which IN NO DOUBT assists the program owner in making more $$... they aint gonna say shit.... Which is why they ran away from this thread so fast..

DD

_______________________________
No Nats - Find programs that DON'T use NATS
Old Dollars - Selling older women via CCBill for longer than NATS has been around

Well, I don't know how you could agree with something I never said, but aside from that, I don't think NATS is perfect, and neither do I think CCBill are perfect. What I would like to see is more constructive input to address issues and concerns. That would benefit everyone.

This is all nonsense & it's getting stupid.

If John (who has really disappointed me & others) or anyone else from NATS would like to come back & reply to my legit questions:
http://www.greenguysboard.com/board/...8&postcount=51
as well as the legit questions from others, please do so.

Anyone that does not work for NATS is just speculating on the problems like we are & in all reality, your input is not required.

Youre right - its not popular because of that - its popular because its cheap - any idiot can start a program using it without ever doing any programming on the back end(which unfortunately a lot do)
Also - comparing it to ccbill isnt a real comparison tool as they are two different things - while ccbill does give a few tools to look at it is not an an affilate program software standalone - it is a processor that gives a few tools and thats it - apples and oranges.
As far as the shaving - while it may not have anything built in - any monkey programmer can take care of that pretty easily - just like any other program out there - not saying its the programs fault - its just people are people - and if it can be done they are going to do it.

Ya know a long time ago someone in this industry (I think it was around 1999 or so) called me on the phone cause I had made a post at another board about one program back then that I had caught shaving - and he said real simple - why point out just one program? - they all shave - you just have to figure out how much and figure that into your biz model :)

an error in a join form entry can cause the transaction to stop before it even successfully reaches the process. you'll see the traffic to the join but no signups.... this is not because the site doesn't sell or because nats is fucking your ratios... its a setup error by the program owner. test a full, completed transaction... this will let u know if all is good..... moving on 2 the next question :D

bashing = criticizing something without actual evidence that it is the cause of the problem. you and many others are doing that. insert whatever software/program into that. its obvious YOU don't like nats... if u would read what i said before, my entire point is based on logic. YOUR point is finding a scapegoat for a problem rather than finding a resolution.

1) there are errors in the USE of the nats affiliate software that can cause the changes in ratio that all of you are complaining about. because many of the "new" programs with slick designs & nats on the backend LOOK good, doesn't mean there are people there are 100% competent at running the software. hell, anyone can make a mistake so this certainly is a possibility as i have made errors during my learning curve while using the software that caused this. even a data stream setup problem with the processors can cause missing rebills BUT THAT ISN'T NATS FAULT.

so your point is to damage their product and not find a resolution? |crazy| no one is going to stop using a good product simply because there are "haters".... ask Bill Gates. most of the complaints i've seen are cosmetic, personal issues that just have to do with your comfort level when accessing affiliate resources within the application. your misunderstanding of the software and how it works is apparent based upon your complaints.... your lack of experience and effort to thoroughly research the problem before pointing the finger is painfully obvious. i'm not tryin to insult you, i'm just OBSERVING your posts and your behavior. "NATS IS EVIL, I'M NOT MAKING SALES, IT MUST BE NATS FAULT!" come on dude... u sound like a kid.... really.


i don't know about you, but i DO have a life offline... family, other offline concerns and distractions. i doubt anyone is running from anything... this sounds like talk from people on that other board rather than experienced, sensible, logical webmasters...|cry|

i think experience counts for something... so basically if we oppose your way of thinking and we don't work for NATs then our input isn't welcomed? |confused|

You know, Q, mabye if you weren't talking to mature experienced webmasters, you wouldn't sound like such a fucking asshole. But that's what you're coming off as. And I'm not saying that just because I'm in complete disagreement with you. And stick that |crazy| smiley up your ass.

I really didn't think I had to spell out the logical connection there, but apparently I do.

I guess the relevance was that you stated "why would i WANT your sales to go missing or not get credited". Why then would the sponsors that you outed as shaving "WANT your sales to go missing or not get credited"?

After mentioning the slipping ratios to the guy who runs the program, the first thing I did was ask if it was Ok to try a test join, which I did and they refunded all which showed up in the stats. So what's the next thing I was supposed to test?

Would I ask you why my cable box isn't working just because you have one as well? No, I'd call the fucking cable company because it's their fucking box. They own it. They programmed it. They're responsible for fixing it.

I'm not opposed to your way of thinking. I'm opposed to you or anyone else that does not work for NATS speaking on their part - especially after we had John from NATS in here answering questions 2 weeks ago. He said he was going to come back. He was on the board reading this thread a couple days ago. He has not posted. This simple fact has me very upset with NATS.

There's a lot of things that I do like about NATS. But some things make me scratch my head. I posted those questions 2 weeks - as did others - and we are all still waiting for replies from a NATS representative.

Personally, I'd love to hear about the scrubbing code that Flash Cash removed.

no one said its your job... if you hadn't noticed, in the TOS of most programs, you're agreeing to a partnership. basically, you're saying you just want the program owner to do all th work and you make all the money? lol... "give me hosted galleries.... give me linking code i can figure out.... give me... give me" IT'S A PARTNERSHIP. PARTicipate in helping to run it.

why would any program owner want to partner with people who don't take their partnership seriously? why should they be concerned about what someone like that thinks? if a program has a site that you KNOW is great... you have had good history with sales and retention, but then something happens and that changes. do you think it will be easy to find another site to replace the one you have PROVEN to make you a fat check? so doesn't it behoove you to make some effort to fix the problem... something as simple as going thru a signup with the site just to check functionality?

but thats a little too much for you.... u just want to put up links and get paid. fuck the program owner (your partner)... if that's the case, why should an affiliate program owner care about ONE or TWO affiliates when there are THOUSANDS out there that are looking to make money from this site that sells so well? you want to say FUCK them but you want them to care about each and every one of you |hammer

personally, i'm on both sides so i can see it. i've noticed changes when programs change from one software to another. i've noticed when they don't change at all. the biz isn't perfect traffic isn't perfect... the real question is do you trust your affiliate program owner? have you spoken personally with the guys that are sending you checks? met them in person? NATs is just software.... misuse of it and other factors can and DO affect your sales numbers. don't find scapegoats for anything... help find a resolution or you are just as much a part of the problem. i think CCBill is cool but of course i prefer a solution that will logically make me more $$$.... whether its nats, mpa3 or partnersoft... i'm going with cascading over any dependency on my money coming from a processor. that's just me.... that's all i'll say on this. feel free to continue nats bashing, or bashing whatever u choose.... you'll get tired and find something else to scapegoat eventually. have a good 1.

so if i used to install cable boxes or repair them then you wouldnt..... awww fuck it :D

Yes. And I imagine you want me to send you traffic so you can get paid.

Do you have a lot of affiliates who ask for more then you feel they deserve?

You really are fucked in the head & I did have a much higher opinion of you until this last post.

1st off, I can't even begin to understand how you can direct those "give me" comments at me. The ONLY thing I need to promote a sponsor is a link code. I barely use hosted galleries & my use of hosted free sites has actually declined over the last 6 months (even though more & more are being released) I only use a handful of banners and I have no use for RSS feeds or blogs or whatever promo material is the current fad.

You know what my job is in affiliate/program relationship? My job is to get surfers to the program's site. That's it - nothing more, nothing less. It is their job to convert & retain them. It's their job to make sure their scripts & servers are working. It's their job to count the hits, credit me with sales & send me my cut of the money.

Sure, I do help out some programs when I see something that needs to be corrected. But I'm doing less & less of that these days as most of the time it falls on deaf ears or I get told to mind my own business (yes, this has happened)

Are you saying that you can (but no longer) install & repair NATS software?

the point is simply that experience can mean mountains when it comes to dealing with something, you don't have to be the one who made it to be able to help those who DON'T have experience gain a better understanding of it. i guess you won't see that since now... you're mad. moving on....


if my posting on your board (on the internet), my logic and stance on being open minded, and not finding scapegoats for problems is all it takes for you to think less of me, then your opinion of me isn't that important anyhow.


then you and i are in the same boat on the affiliate said AS I WOULD SAY THE EXACT SAME THING ABOUT MY SITE AND THE WAY I SEND TRAFFIC... so y are you crying about an encoded/un-encoded link code, dude?

u know what? i wouldn't do that... to anyone, let alone an affiliate. not every sponsor is the same, they are not all run by the same PEOPLE (note i said PEOPLE, not affiliate tracking software). i'm not seeing any advantage over my affiliates when using this software and if anything, u should take that to mean a bit more than just a program owner with no experience running a site VERY similar to yours rather than get heated cuz i mention some truths not everyone wants to hear at the moment.

to me, this is a forum, its a discussion, that's it.... i'm still cool with you. if you're mad at me about it? there it is again... nothing i can do about that.

You're right, but that "give me" comment which was directed at me personally really rubs me the wrong way.

But we've known each other for a long time, so I can let it slide |shake|

Forget about everything in this thread with the exception of my 1st post that started the thread (we'll get back to everything esle later)

Do you think that those are useful options?

actually i think that's a silly way to display stats and i'm not sure y anyone would set their NATs to display that way. i've seen some unique ways of setting things up but i've always been comfortable with the default setup (i haven't had any complaints or requests for additional stats displays on the owner's side either). i can understand wanting to give more detail but just as u said, this actually my cause confusion rather than accomplishing their initial goal.... which was probably to give u more data. |potleaf|

It's not even that it's more data, but more like the same data that everyone is used to looking at side-by-side sorted into different tables.

I do like seeing the totals on the bottom that say how much was generated & how some sponsors fuck you out of 24% of the gross |thumb

Ok - that's it for me. The only other questions/suggestions that I have can really only be address by a NATS rep.

Statsremote just added something like that...I haven't used it but I did see a blurb about it on the login page.

I am sending this thread to TMM...maybe Albright or Charlie will get in here.

Guess not. |yawn|

Just a passing thought...

Since many programs who start as CCBill-only and then downgrade to NATs often allow affiliates to maintain their original CCBill links, why don't programs offer the option for us to use CCBill or NATs? I mean, if they are really looking to please the affiliate webmaster, wouldn't that be the smart thing to do? Anyone out there brave enough to do that?

Only one off the top of my head that does is Radical Cash :D

Well that settles it. I'm a fucking genius. It can be done. |thumb

And don't forget "all around bad ass mofo" |thumb

KatVixen's CCBill program still works even after the site was added to JayMan Cash.

We do that.


If a program stops using CCBills script and still allows you to use your old CCBill links then they are allowing you to choose either or. (providing they have things set up correctly)

The problem occurs when hits from your CCBill links are sent to the new tour used for the new script.

Any other affiliate scripts are not going to recognise a CCBill code besides theirs. You will still see clicks in your CCBill admin, but you will be seeing no sales in your CCBill admin or the sponsors new admin.

If you are still using your old CCBill link codes the sponsor should have a CCBill tour set up just for that traffic. If not chances are that sales are not being tracked.

Here is an example of how BikiniVoyeur works. It was originally only using CCBill's script and still does for this style of link: http://refer.ccbill.com/cgi-bin/clic...0000&PA=620577
will take you to the CCBill tour here: http://www.bikinivoyeur.com/index-ccb.php

Our new codes looks like so:
http://www.bikinivoyeur.com/affil.php?affilid=147 and will take you to its own tour here: http://www.bikinivoyeur.com/index2.php

If you notice both tours look similar but the CCBill tour has a different join page that's able to track the ccbill link code.

If I was to send that traffic to the other tour no affiliate sales would be tracked.

Conversion ratios and NATS
 

I just spent some time computing my conversion ratios for the year (yeah, it might be thrown off by a last-minute massive surge of NY Eve sales, but I doubt it).

Anyway, I found something of minor interest here. Both my best-convering sponsor (at 1:213) and my worst-converting sponsor (0 sales out of over 23,000 uniques |shocking|) use NATS.

So NATS alone is obviously not costing me sales or loss of ratios, but I do suspect that the way NATS is set up by individual sponsors to count sales may well be a factor.

Alas, I have no data for any of my CCBill sponsors yet, since CCBill's stats are giving me error messages if I try to grab more than one pay period worth of stats at a time. |banghead|

Is the 1:213 first page, second page, or join page ratio?
If it's 1st page then thats a dam good ratio. |thumb

Unique hits. But a.) it was a highly specialized niche, and b.) most of my sponsors didn't convert even close to that well, so I'm not a miracle worker. :)

Hm - I did do 1:422 on a particular sponsor's gay twink site (non-NATS) but no, I'm not telling which. :D