LL Submitters: Please check your sites in Mozilla/FireFox!
 

First, let me state: I am guilty! I figured I knew my HTML and CSS well enough that my sites would be groovy for any browser. How wrong I was.

I now use FireFox almost exclusively (and I am a happier person for it.) If you are building free sites, you should download FireFox or some other recent Mozilla browser - it's not as forgiving of bad code as IE, and your sites can really fall apart if you're not careful.

For those of you who, like me, railed against the totally crappy NetScape 4.x - this is not the same deal. The latest versions are painfully compliant and will show you the many errors of your ways.

By my stats, close to 15% of users are now on FireFox (that's FireFox alone - not including the various other permutations of Mozilla). I'm not willing to throw away that many visitors. Are you?

Well I agree with Mishi, do check your sites in FireFox I for example have 12% FireFox users, which is enough for me to take optimization for Mozilla browsers seriously.

just noticed that firefox users are becoming more and more - that's a good advice..thanks a lot Mishi! :)

I try to make sites that looks good in Mozilla, but I did not know how many people use it, 15% is really high number. It is rather bad message for webmasters, because they will have to work longer on every site to otimize it for both browsers.

Just some browser stats from LOR:
MS Internet Explorer 82.2 %
Firefox 9.7 %
Netscape 3.2 %
Safari 1.5 %
Opera 1.2 %
Mozilla 1.2 %

Oddly enough, they do change a bit when you look at the board's stats :D
MS Internet Explorer 70.8 %
Firefox 17 %
Mozilla 3.5 %
Netscape 2.8 %
Safari 2.3 %
Opera 2.1 %

Wow I'm 2.3% of the board's users. :D

Mishi
Apparently one of my sites fell apart when you looked at it in Firefox. I've no idea why. Do you find this happens a lot or is it a rare event?
Cheers
japamor

My stuff doesn't look that much different in all browsers.
I've noticed that Windows IE is picky about missing
so that gets me once in awhile since I'm not a Windows user.

my top surfers use internet explorer, i have mention it before i cant make my sites all the same look in every browser for me counds (or counts who cares) the most users of an browser

I think the numbers in themselves don't say that much.

I just checked and 9.7% of the surfers on Booballistics use Firefox. But I would like to know how many of those 9.7% are actually in the group of potential buyers?

The way I see it from speaking to friends (and I could be mistaken) - Firefox is for those people who:

1. Just plain hate Microsoft because they have the "nerve" to make money on computers.
2. Want free stuff - Basically not so different from groups 1.
3. Mac people and other computer minorities.

People from groups 1 and 2 are highly unlikely to buy anything and therefor I really don't care if they can see my sites.

People from group 3 obviously have too much money (or else they would have bought a REAL computer for less money :D ) and I like those to see my sites.

But consulting my serverstats once again I see that only 2.4% of my surfers are on Macs. And I think it is reasonable to assume that not ALL Mac people use Firefox. So I am now down to less than 2% of my surfers that might or might not have a problem.

I can live with that!

What...no Konqueror browser?

Safari is based on Konqueror. My server stats list Konqueror but don't list Safari users.

Ah, mine list both, but you have to read the raw logs otherwise it just gets lumped in the "other" category. Checking my stats if I lump Netscape / Firefox / mozilla together it's around 1 quarter of the traffic. It's not a bad idea to check the pages in both.

Thing that I find more annoying is people that design for 800 x 600 and don't center tables. A lot of high resolution users get ugly pages to the left.

I don't agree with that... I think a lot of firefox users are just computer savvy surfers trying to tame the nasty surfing experience you get with IE. I'm sure some of them would still spend money if you present them with an enticing enough offer - but of course those juicy dumbass surfers (the ones you really want, the newbies) would still be using IE, so the shrinking IE segment will become more and more valuable.

I don't see why people can't just handle writing compliant html anyway... the whole point of writing to a standard is that everyone can see it!

you might want to follow some of the discussions on the CSS groups then. Even though CSS is a defined standard, Microsoft's interpretation of the standard is often at odds with the document that they helped author.

So, even if you use Compliant HTML and CSS, because of the way IE 6 renders the CSS, you still get two separate results.

So, can you convince Microsoft to follow the RFC that they coauthored? If so, it would make a lot of web designer's lives easier.

That is true, I was thinking more of fatal html errors in mozilla that IE would forgive.

What?
Firefox users are people who just want a better and more secure browser than what comes included on their pc. I fear your disdain for us. I'm going to go hide now.

Wonder if Jan works for M$. :D

I only use Firefox because I got sick of IE and all the endless spyware, adware, etc that you get when you use IE. Also because MS wants to monopolize your computer they make the damn browser so integrated into the OS that when something goes wrong with the browser, buh bye, time to reinstall windows.

I had one post that was rejected because it didn't work in FireFox.

So after getting Firefox, and looking at the pages, the dumbass program was defaulting table colors to white, not my page background color. And of course white text on white background don't work too good.

Not necessarily. The thing is, IE is very forgiving of "bad" code. So if you "optimize" for Mozilla (and it's not really optimizing - it's just writing compliant code), your sites will probably look fine in most browsers.

It doesn't happen a whole lot, but it's also not infrequent - if that makes any sense. The most common problem I see is unreadable text - either it's completely invisible until highlighted, or lines of text overlap. Sometimes text in tables goes wonky.

I've never seen a whole gallery just drop to the bottom of the page, like yours did. I'm sorry I didn't have more time to look at the code and see what might be wrong; if I get a chance I'll look into it, 'cause I'm curious myself.

Ok, here's my take on some of the dissenting opinions expressed so far. :)

There are a couple ways to look at browsers in your stats.
1) What Browser are they, the surfer, using. This is good thinking. Know thy surfer (spelled CUSTOMER) and make your sites work with their browser. Thinking that only the newbie surfer sheep running on MS IE are your only viable customers is just plain ignorant. There are hundreds of thousands, probably millions, of horny surfers with open wallets that just plain hate MS IE. Maybe they come from the old Netscape school and when it became Mozilla they kept with it rather than going IE. New to the web doesn't mean open wallets anymore. Your BEST customers are likely more savy surfers that Know What They Want. Just because they "only" represent 10% to 25% of your customer base are you willing to throw them out? If so, PLEASE, PLEASE send them to my sites.

2. What Version of a given browser are your surfers using. If you see MS IE v4 or older or Netscape 4.x or older then Yes these surfers are likely not viable customers. The reason being if they aren't willing to keep current, at all, with their OS and accompanying software on their own computer(s) then they probably aren't worth the time it would take to create a marketing campaign for them - even IF they could view your sites to begin with.

As a business owner I am hesitant to disregard even 5% of my potential customer base - that's 1 out of every 20 people that visit my store! Imagine if BestBuy were to based upon some archaic algorithm of demographics it ignored every redhead that entered their stores. It's hard enough to get good ratios without self-imposing limitations on your own prospective profits.

Hi Mishi
I've now downloaded Firefox and I must say I'm impressed.
The problem on my particular site seems to have been the 'table height' instructions. I've now scrubbed them - and my galleries no longer collapse. I can see your Recip clearly so I don't know what that problem is. I've tried re-submitting but the site's already on your database, so I can't. I'd be most grateful if you you could take the site off so I can try again. This is it:
http://www.japamor.com/sites/lingeri...onsb/index.htm
Many thanks!
japamor |waves|

I looked at that site briefly last night and had noticed that the thumb table had 'dropped' down the page. I was going to PM you about it today, but I see you've already fixed it. |thumb I left it in my queue, so it'll be up today.

Thanks mate |waves|

UW,
I have no disdain for you... I just don't agree with the reasons for using Firefox that most people have.
I work with online porn as all of you do... and I have no - or very very few - problems with IE.
Sure IE was unstable and what not in the past - no argument there. But that was then. That was we had Netscape as a serious alternative.

Mr. Blue,
No I do not work for M$... but if they offer me a well paid job I'm game ;)

The point I was trying to make in my previous post was: "Don't invent problems that may not be there".
Its not about ignoring red-heads. Its about time management and the 80/20 rule.

In the interest of not looking like a complete jerk I actually just downloaded Firefox and installed it. So far all my sites look exactly like they are supposed to. So it appears I don't have a problem.
But lets imagine that my free sites were looking off or some colors were screwed up. Would I then spend the time to go back and correct them all because <2% "might" have a problem seeing them?
My answer is: no way :)

what i see that some banners of mine dont appear in firefoxs but then i use alt tags and text under my banners and those will be seen in firefoxs, i still use ie, and most of my surfers are, so i keep it with ie...kick my ass i dont care:D

It's pretty sweet, isn't it? :)

Cool on the gallery. I don't know what's up with the recip, either - I looked at the code and I can't fathom what's going wrong there. I won't hold it against you. ;)

I've re-added the site to the queue. For future reference, all you have to do if you want a site re-reviewed is log in, click on "View Your Sites", find the site in question and hit edit, then mention in comments that it's a resubmit. It will show up in my pending sites list.

Thanks much, I enjoy working with you.

See, to me, that's like saying, "I paid for ads in The New York Times and the Village Voice. My ads don't show up in the Voice, but that's okay, the Times will cover it."

You're letting people look at your galleries and sites, for free, without seeing your advertising. I know you well enough, Stu, to assume you're using plenty of text, so the loss of a banner or two may not actually be a big deal for you. But I still can't condone suggesting that anyone just blow off a large potential revenue source.

As I mentioned before - and this is directed at everybody who doesn't want to "optimize for all browsers" - if your sites work in Mozilla browsers, they probably will work in most browsers. Aim for the highest common denominator, not the lowest.

In case people aren't aware, FireFox is free.

Thanks Mishi
And congrats on the big 500! |thumb
japamor

Ooh, I did just hit it, didn't I! Yay me! |bananna| |pink |mml|