What internet content label do you think should be the standard and promoted as such?
 

Posted here on behalf of grandmascrotum - http://www.greenguysboard.com/board/...&postcount=104

:)

Thanks Greenguy :)
I voted for the simple meta tag. It's easy and gets straight to the point. While I like the idea of refined labelling, I've been won over by the arguments that simple and easy is best. Easier to present to the public and easy to defend as well.

I'm thinking if refinement is what you're after, we could have the option of using the ICRA one as an extra tag, or as an alternative one.

I'm not sure the "vchip" option is even technically feasable. It would require filtering data at the operating system level. TV's are a different situation, they're essentially a channel browser, running just one application.

Personally I like the meta tag...its just easy to use.

I really like the idea of a hardwired V-Chip that would keep them honest :)

I voted for the simple adult meta tag. Like Toby, I'm unsure of the feasibility of hardwiring adult filtering. It would make life better for us, that's for certain. But I don't see it as realistic at this time.

I've been using a on my pages for about 2 years now. That's all that's needed for some net filters as is.

Simple tags are the best. No need to go back and retro fit millions of computers with some sort of chip. No need for a third party registry. Simple software can block it, and we can all do it in a very short amount of time.

Support the simple solution.

Alex

Well, they didn't refit millions of TV's with the V-Chip once it was invented & approved :)

The V-Chip thing is just something that most people can understand & grasp, since everyone has a TV with it installed. It really is just another version of a program/script that blocks access if it's told to do so (just like the V-Chip)

Even if it's not a V-Chip, some sort of easy to manage pre-installed software on new computers that the user has the option of turning on & that software uses some sort of universal rating system (like the meta tags) would be perfect.

GG, the problem with the V-chip idea is that it works if you have time... we don't have time. Internet time and real world time are different, and I think we are looking for a solution that could be implemented in a shorter period of time, rather than over the lifecycle of computers. You admitted yourself on the radio show that it took a long time for the V-chip thing to finally come into it's own, and that was mostly because it took 5 - 7 years to get more new TV's into people's hands with the option on it. Most people keep and run a computer for 2 - 4 years. Can we really wait for 4 years?

Simple meta tag filtering can be implemented by nothing more serious than a windows update. If 75% of the people do the update, then you have 75% penetration on the first go. All new computers going forward would have the software installed, so it wouldn't be long to get to 80% or 90%. Installing a chip and waiting for a turnover in computers would lead to probably less than 25% penetration in the first year, which is way to slow a pace to really show change. To make that work today, we would have had to start putting them in PCs in maybe 2002 or 2003.

With windows update and other automated updating tools, putting a simple filter system in place is a piece of cake if you can get Microsoft, mozilla, and Apple on board, and there is little or no reason for them NOT to be on board.

Alex

Another vote for the simple meta here |thumb

This shouldn't have to be rocket science...the technology is there...just needs implementation across the board. Like Ana, I've been using the tag for a long time...assuming some filters already respond to it.

I voted for the ICRA tag/other established method. I think ICRA is a bit complex, but, it is a standard that has been out there for 6 years. I don't think a simple 'adult' tag works well because some of the blogs have grey areas, etc. Some of the blogs written by teens would need the adult tag.

I also don't think the meta tag is the best method as hotlinked images, images referred to in emails, images passed around in instant messaging, etc aren't subject to it. I think rather than tagging the pages, there needs to be a way to have a robots.txt type file on the domain root that contains that info. That way, when an image is requested remotely, the browser or email client or whatever can quickly go to the root of the domain in question (or subdomain) and fetch an adult policy file. I don't support doing this in server headers as most people don't have the ability to change their headers.

In any case, any method is a good start as long as there is some solidarity among site owners.

http://www.w3.org/PICS/ is sanctioned by the www consortium and has been around since 98
http://www.icra.org/ is somewhat independent and has been around since 2000.

To make it work, there needs to be a concensus among one method that enough webmasters create a critical mass. If the adult industry starts self labelling pages, and linklists set a date where submissions after a certain date require whatever type of labelling, eventually you'll have enough that it will work.

perhaps even a resource list of where to go to register urls for some of the competing surfing tools along with a section to educate parents. There is a PICS compatible extension to firefox which is free. It only takes a few minutes to register a new domain with the few that still maintain domain name registries of 'adult' content.

http://www.safesurf.com/classify/ (they use PICS as their policy editor)

Whatever is decided, it needs to be easy to implement and implemented on a rather large scale. I've emailed a guy at google to see what they use to determine that content needs to be filtered by safesearch. If Google has a preferred method, obviously helping them make their job easier will go a long way.

I also don't want to see webmasters having to flex and support 14 different standards which is why I think that even though PICS is a little complex, it is probably the wiser choice since it has been around since 98, it can be very granular if you want it to be, or, you can have a simple 'adult' policy. Its supported by multiple caching & safe surfing software already and you're set.

There are 3 places that need to be checked with any system that is devised:

Browser Manufacturers (What does IE, Firefox, Mozilla/Netscape, AOL, Safari have in the way of plugins or support for content ratings)
Search Engines/safesurf (What do the search engines,proxy engines,surf protection software companies look at to determine the rating of a particular site)
Webpage Design Software (What formats are supported by popular webpage editors so that its not too complex)

If we knew how each of those 3 already handled content ratings and adapted to make sure that whatever method was chosen was already supported, it wouldn't require an infrastructure change on their parts and would just work.

Where www.example.org is your domain.

This is a generic PICS record that says that content may be present -- IRCA's system requires explicit classification of the content presented. Safesurf also uses PICS but has different ratings which are somewhat more generic, although, neither has a policy that states, hey, just mark it as adult. Both are a bit too granular to be simple, but, somewhat well supported.

I think the answer is rather evident. All of the safesearch filtering that I can find all use PICS. All we need is 1 location to host a simple policy file that can be defined or utilize an existing bureau's definitions. So, perhaps the rating=mature which is somewhat widely supported and the PICS tag with a bureau that makes it easy to generically tag pages.

In rereading irca, they do now support ircaPlus which does allow inclusion through a header and additionally has specified a bit more granular control over things. It may be a bit more complex than is desired, but, it is in place today, its ready today, the software is free for surfers.

Good point.

I voted for the second option. Its simple but I think its enough to accomplish what we want to do.

My Vote: Adult Meta Tag

Many agree that the IRCA label is a good “stop gap” measure for WM’s to use who want to do something now to filter content. There are many reasons why you as a WM might find it inadequate.

The most important reason which has been repeated often is that the simplest answer is already right there ("meta rating = "ADULT") and its use doesn’t give any “third party” authority or control that it doesn’t deserve and shouldn’t have. Keeping quasi regulatory bodies OUT of our internet is one of the more serious goals in these discussions (use the music industry as a success example).

Also, the meta tag is valid HTML, a complete, ready made solution NOW. Its simple to use, simple to code, simple to implement, simple to explain, simple for the general public to understand, simple for the press to convey, simple for browsers to incorporate, simple for filters to catch, simple to identify violators, its even simple enough for politicians to grasp without argument.

IMHO it should be adopted wholeheartedly for its many advantages unless one comes along that exceeds the above “simple” test. Any solution that solves these many, several problems is the logical choice. For the record I’m not sure the FSC is pushing its own label in favor of the generic meta tag… something to check on.

I voted for "nothing" because I firmly believe parents should be held accountable and have a conversation with their children..

Bad things are out there, just like the truth.

however, the RFC says mature rather than adult :)


"14 Years", "General", "Mature", "Restricted", "Safe for Kids" are the tags defined by w3c. Restricted is considered X-Rated, Mature is considered R Rated.

I agree with docholly. I did vote for the simple meta tag though, as keeping things simple is what I like. The same as keeping children off adults sites as that is simple also. Ton's of software and ways to block your pc from your children when your not around to supervise them.

I voted for a more complicated meta tag.

Seeing as the web is a world-wide phenomena I think it's important we not single out what could be considered "adult" based on the values of just one society/culture. A tier-leveled rating system would be essential in allowing different communities to determine exactly what is safe and for whom.

As for having a third party verification system? If there's anything I've learned from reading all those sci-fi novels on my shelves it's this: Don't let any one organization have absolute power and control! EVER!!! |angry|

I agree with cd34 in the short-term but I personally would like to see the tags evolve into something that is inclusive as well as exclusive. In other words, relevant for SERP. If it is made such, it makes it much more likely that those who do operate sites just south of mature would also see the benifit of using such a tag.

Also, webmasters in area's not under US controls would be more apt to use the tag.

I voted for number 2, the simplest to use.

Though, I already use the
I would use whatever the accepted version of "rating" should be to shout the mouths of anti porn activist.


Ben

"Restricted" is equivalent to x-rated? Holy shit, I'd never heard that before.

I've been using content="mature" since 2000. I just started added content="adult" last year.

I should have been adding content="restricted". I'll start doing so.

I am so glad you brought this up, because I was contemplating replacing "restriced" tags with "mature". |banghead|

http://www.html-reference.com/META_name_rating.htm

I cannot find the actual w3c reference even though I have searched a number of their pages. I saw it this morning when I posted this, but, even looking through my history I have about 55 pages from them and I have glanced through each and don't see the source recommendation.

But, the above url is confirmed with a number of other sites.

See, here is my problem. When parents started complaining about these problems on TV, the gov stepped in and said by a certain year, all tvs would have a v-chip. I don't know why they are not doing that with doing that with PCs.
http://www.fcc.gov/vchip/

The thing is, Jim, all a vchip is, is a little dedicated computer that reads a kind of software tag attached to the television program.

Every computer today made is already a million times more powerful than a vchip.

You don't need to insert a vchip into a computer - just tell the computer with a snippet of instruction, ideally put into the browser software, to read the ratings tags we already put on our pages. (hell, this already exists, it's just that parents don't know how to set their computers to safe surfing. Solution? Every computer can be sold _already set_ to kidsafe surfing, and the adult has to turn on adult surfing.)

The reason the old style TVs needed a chip put in is that they had no brains, no processing power. We already have all the processing power we need to do a vchips job in every computer.

My vote was also for the meta tag. I've been using the meta tag "mature" as well as the ICRA tag on my sites since I heard about them early last year just to cover bases. But, I think simplicity is the key.

Honestly, as a parent, I can say that most parents are retarded. I'm not kidding, they are really stupid and would barely put the effort forth to shout "STOP" if they saw their kids about to drink a jug of antifreeze. Unfortunately, if it's not simple, nobody will do it. If browsers are shipped by default to block out mature and restricted meta tags, then dad will be forced to figure out how to work the filters, because we all know that surfers let nothing come between them and their free porn. Once dad is empowered with this divine knowlege, if the kids see porn, I say tar and feather the lazy parent, then pour antifreeze down his throat.

I like what walrus said about finding a way to get SE benefit as well. That would be kick ass!

And yet, there is a vchip in my brand new sony grand wega. Not just special programming in the TV itself but an actual chip.

There would be a lot of unhappy parents LOL Reminds me of the time I set up my dad's AOL account and put parental controls on it as a joke...it took him a week to figure out what I had done and he was not nearly as amused as I was! But it's also the best way to teach parents how effective parental control settings can be!

since a couple of months i use ICRA label , before that i used sites with the metatag mature, i like the vchip you guys are talking about, we dont have that stuff as far as i know here in holland, i can say i am worried about the porn thing on the net for kids, well in a certain way, and i dont know if i explain it right, i have an eleven year old daughter who is very smart and always works on her laptop and find her info on the net for the topics of her scripts, now what i realy hate is the fact she looks say for snakes , find a page in google which says snakes (non adult, heay snake word can be use in adult:D), she clicks and gets porn, now i have asked her , how they deal with that at her school, the kids work in groups on their puter, say 12 kids 12 puters in one room and there is a teacher there to watch where they are surfing, but even the kids search for non adult links, most links will redirect to porn, i realy dont know if there is an solution, but i like the idea for the Vchip:)

Findpics and link2x now have simple meta tags on all pages.

Alex

~raises hand~

Okay, that confused me a little. I have been (along with ICRA tags) using



Does the above quote mean I should be using

instead?

Hmmm, I always thought the "R" in R-Rated meant restricted.
And, the "X" in X-Rated meant XXX hardcore porn.

I like the simple tag. Although you might want to add some kind of age rating to it so other "non-adult" sites could use similar tags.
Instead of Adult, use Age-18 or Age-21, etc.

I have always been under the impression that mature was 'less' adult than restricted and several pages that talk about that meta tag tend to agree.

The w3c replaced that simple tag with PICS ratings because a policy could be generated with your own rules if someone wanted to get sophisticated enough to write a policy. ICRA made things a bit too granular, but, are the largest 'standards' based group that I have seen and most of the 'safe surfer' technology is based on ICRA's work.

I think with a PICS rating from ICRA and the rating metatag and some enforcement, it can be said that the adult industry IS concerned with making sure people do have a method to control access if they deem it so.

Personally, I don't feel adding a new system or meta tag will be adopted by the search engines, browsers, plugins, etc anywhere near as quickly as using a system that has been defined and in place since 98.

Jim, a V-chip in the TV world works because of the way that the encoding is made. The data for the V-chip encoding is done in a similar manner to close captions or XDS encoded data. The information is broadcast on a continuous basis, not just at a single time at the start of the show (the little logo you see at the start of the show is only there to show you, technically it does nothing.

http://www.linkelectronics.com/htm/techvchp.htm

Web pages are served in a different manner, one shot there you go, all the data is in one place. Making the browser (which is the software normally used for reading web pages) check for a simple meta tag is a piece of cake job, a very few lines of code and you are off to the races.

The government needs to pass simple rules: All web pages must be rated (General to Restricted / adult / XXX ) and all browsers must support a simple system to read these tags and block unwanted websites.

Done.

Sadly, the simple answers will never be simple.

Alex

So there are two valid systems available (even if those using one of them appear to have generally got it wrong).

Can we have another poll asking whether the FSC should bother trying to reinvent the wheel?

As for locking my new puter down in kiddy mode and requiring me to make it suitable for my use... fuck that for a joke! I bought the fucking thing. Dumbing things down, to mollycoddle children and the dickheads who are apparently so fucking proud of the fact that their parenting skills leave a lot to be desired that they won't stop admitting it in public, is not the answer imo.

Yeah, but your an aussie Wazza. Youtr people have a dram or two of common sense left.

American parents have these teeny-tiny brains, and they can't do a thing without a giant federal beauracracy to help them. If they didn't have government help to wipe their butts they couldn't even take a shit on their own.

Actually, I think the solution isn't to make computer vendors sell every computer set to kid-safe, I only suggested that because I know it's exactly how our politicians think. If we say to the politicians "go ahead, sell everything kid safe and let the idiot adults figure out how to turn on the porn", they'll fucking love the power we are giving them. Then the lobbyists will bribe them to adopt some other more practical solution.

You see, in america nothing gets done without stroking politicians egos.

I believe simple is best but I also believe the far right won’t accept something too simple. The arguments are too easy to make that if ratings are just for pornographers then why not just force pornographers to use AVS, which we all know does not work.

The w3c standard separates R rated type stuff from X rated type stuff. The R rated stuff includes the news companies that will be spreading the propaganda. If the proposal is made in a way that they also need to label content then they can’t be as harsh on just one type of content. After all, shouldn’t violence be controlled using an AVS as well?

The V-Chip was only needed in TVs because they don’t have any intelligence. Computers have an entire operating system in place so they have the intelligence to do everything the V-Chip can do.

I know that a simple tag is the easiest to use but stop thinking like a webmaster for a few minutes and start thinking like the far right. If you haven’t spent most of your life around them, don’t know the political mindset and understand how voters are manipulated start watching Fox News around 9:00 PM.

Remember that many of them grew up thinking a one legged pregnant black woman carrying a baby didn’t have the right to sit down if a healthy white man was standing. Here’s what runs through the minds even if it’s not running through the mouth.

“Pornographers are sinners and they’re not like us. The Constitution and Bill Of Rights doesn’t include sinners. They’re lucky that we don’t hang them. We need to make it impossible for pornography to be seen. This rating system is only designed for pornography so there’s no need to make it easy.”

A tag that’s too simple and only includes pornography will quickly be turned into an AVS requirement and probably the only acceptable technology for this will be patented by a law firm in Florida that happens to be governed by the 2012/2016 Presidential candidate.

Only when a proposal is made to rate content other then pornography do we stand a chance of freely rating content.