Loyalty in business
 

Where does loyalty and gratitude end and business sense start ?

We all probably had people help us achieve to the point we are at, but is there a point where you are a little more selective with the help and support you offer those who helped you climb the ladder if it is a bad move for your business, or do you continue to nurture those you have passed out of gratitude forever?

I tell myself that there is no emotion in business, and biz is biz, but always end up doing what my gut tells me is the right thing as far as others are concerned even though it may hold my business back. Am I an idiot ?? |confused|

I don't think you are an idiot. I've found myself in the same situations and try to keep moving forward even if it means dragging friends kicking and screaming with me :)

you have friends ????|jester|

One or two :D

I'll be your friend, for the right price of course :)

Seriously, helping your friends is not a trivial thing and there's nothing wrong with continuing to do so. Lucky for me I'm clueless enough that most people never bother asking for help :)

LB
I think you are not an idiot at all. What goes around comes around. That is a cliche but it is true. Do what your gut tells you to do as long as it is ethical. If you are supporting someone that is acting ethical then fantastic but if at any time they cross the line, stop the support.

I try to help people. I think this board in general is a helping board and there are only a few like it online today with people helping others for nothing in return.

I was told a long time ago your reputation can be everything in this business. Ruin it and it is hard to get back. Keep it and you can go a long way.

Very well said Ramster...on all counts |thumb

LB, you mention something about 'if it is a bad move for your business'. One must always look out for their own business and ethics first and foremost. I would never let anyone convince me to do something that went against my own business sense. That said, some of my best friends on the planet are in this business and I'd do anything in my power to assist them if needed.

Sure sounds like your gut is serving you well |thumb

I strongly believe in Karma ....I come from the restaurant industry and dealing with customers and staff (kitchen staff -- stress) is a test for anyone. Anyways, I believe business is business and you always need to look after yourself first, but this doesn't mean ignore or treat others wrongly. As mentioned by others, Ethics is a big part, professionalism, and most of all, you have to be a people person.

I personally don't mind helping others and as one said, if someone decides to take advantage of your efforts in a bad way, then you need your Gut feelings and business smarts to make the right decisions. Maybe a quote from spock...lol..."the needs of the many, out weigh the needs of the one" :) ...within reason of course...hehe

I know I run a directory, and constantly building upon it with listings and other features, but I am also there for the webmasters and to help them in any way I can to see them succeed. In fact, 50% of my efforts there is dedicated to find ways to help webmasters...even here at GG. There are times I even need help too and always happy to get the feedback from everyone :)

This business is never perfect for anyone and understanding that its an ongoing effort to keep learning and improving on ourselves :)

Yeah I was thinking along those lines too.... its just nice to have it said back to me.

But let me clarify what sparked this thread is recently someone who helped me out as a newbie asked for (almost expected) quite a substantial loan to start an affiliate program, and personally I don't think he has what it takes or the business sense to run one so it would probably be a one way gift.

I believe in doing the right thing and helping those who helped me, but where do you draw the line I guess is what I'm asking.

If you can afford it with no serious negative effect to your life do it. If it jeopardizes your way of life or your businesses then say no. We all have different levels of risk.

Tough one there LB for sure. How much did this person help you, did they help/have an absolute role in you earning the same amount they are asking for, or more, would you have learned anyhow elsewhere, that kind of thing. One thing to have gratitude and repay in kind, another to possibly lose what sounds like a large sum of money. At the end I'd agree with Surfn's last post. Tough call and good luck with it.

I have to agree....it really depends on where to draw the line. It's great to be able to help someone, especially when its a stranger as well, but you have to "ALWAYS" (as my parents say) "if you ever have conflicting feelings on whether to do something or not, go with the not".

If you feel that this person just doesn't have it in them to run this kind of business, perhaps the right thing is not to help out on this one. Perhaps not providing the help to this person is actually helping them in the end. I'd be totally open and honest with them....and it appears that coming here for the thoughts of others is a way to assure yourself that you really cannot do this because it almost sounds like its borderline risky on your part. I am sure this person would respect your honest thoughts and want to listen (or I am hoping so) and as long as they know you can perhaps help in other ways that won't jeopardize your way of life (as Surfn) said.

LB, honesty is the biggest part of loyalty. If you really thought he would flop with this paysite then telling him, even a little bluntly, wouldn't be a sin.

Loyalty is everything to me and that means being honest with people even if its not always what they want to hear. My friends know if they come to me for advice they won't get things candycoated to make them feel better.

If he listens to your advice, great, if he doesn't, well you can lend him the money if it doesn't hurt you too bad financially...that's probably what I would do as there's only 2 people in the adult biz that has my 100% loyalty and I would bend over backwards for them if they needed or wanted my help...even if it wasn't a wise financial decision.

Don't confuse helping someone out with giving them money. Those are two different things.

SirMoby makes an excellent point. Unless the help that was given you was financial, perhaps you could return the favor in kind instead of making a (substantial) loan?

I've lost what I "invested" in friends' ideas more than a few times, so I may be a little prejudiced.

Simon

--
Money can't buy friends, but it'll get you a better class of enemy.

In my five years in web publishing (not necessarily adult) I have found that what goes around comes around really holds true. However, as others here stated, giving this guy the money might not be helping him in the real sense of the word. Maybe if you tell him you are interested in becoming an investor and want to see a valid business plan, you might be able to help him see the flaws in his plan and avoid future problems. I'm sure that the last thing he wants is to take your money, fail and then owe you.

Yeah I have to admit I agree with you and SirMoby ... and no the guy helped me out, helped me get contacts back in the day, but I have never been given money by anyone ... I started with my own money so thats not a factor.

I think I will offer him help, try to throw him some things to help him get started, and give him access to one or two of my employees for help occasionally when needed, but I don't think I am about to hand over tens of thousands.

Good decision LB.....smart business thinking and also a cool way of handling the situation.. I bet this will make both parties happy in the long-term....I also bet you feel better now with the decision you made..

That sounds like the wisest decision you could make given those circumstances |thumb

Very good point, and I think it deserves repeating/emphasizing.

Even if you were to provide only assistance, and no $$$, putting pressure on this person to form a clear and solid business plan would be more helpful than anything else, imo. Maybe helping them work on one should be your first form of help.

LB - forgive me for putting in my two cents :) I'll never forget where I've been, the paths I've crossed and the people who guided me, picked me up, or just told me to hang in there along the way. I'd help anyone that has helped me and go above and beyond to help them out. My only barrier is money. Somehow, I've never felt comfortable to ask anyone for money - other than my bank, I don't think I've ever asked anyone for money. Although, if I see someone struggling and have some bucks in epassporte, I'll donate to something or someone who's plea/story I believe in - but that's just a small amount. Not 10's of thousands of dollars!

Since they didn't help you financially, I don't think his/her 'expecting' financial help is justified. I'm all for helping him/her get financing from a bank, helping him/her with their business plan, guiding them with their thoughts, helping with their strategy and marketing plan - but putting your money on the line if your name isn't on the company is not a good idea - unless you STRONGLY believe that it will work, you STRONGLY believe in their work ethics and you STRONGLY believe that no matter what, you'll get your initial investment.

Not throwing away your money, doesn't make you an ingrate - just makes you wise businessman/woman and your decision can also be preventing them from throwing their own money into a bad investment. You'd be serving them well by offering your expertise and helping with getting the plan to work rather than throwing your money into the unknown.

Ok that's my 2 Canadian Cents!!

You draw the line at going against your better judgement with "quite a substantial loan".

You must REALLY feel like you owe this guy to even be considering such a move. You can pay him back by giving him the benefit of your experience in starting a sponsor program and running paysites, maybe even giving HIM some contacts.

If you really think running an affiliate program is going to be a disaster for this guy, maybe what you need to do is point him in a direction that might be more profitable for him.

LB have you considered partnering with your friend? This way you could both have a financial stake in the company and your knowledge could go a long way towards it being a success.


JIm

I considered this !

But dealing with him over a period of time I have noticed he tends to lack the ability to stick to things and finish them. He is an ideas man, but has great difficulty in actually doing that hard work. I would end up probably doing all the work and I already have a program that keeps me more than busy :)

That's a shame LB because I know if someone said that to me (if that was a problem of mine) I would get kind of defensive and try and argue that it wasn't the case. So i can see how you have been put in kind of a difficult position.
He really shouldn't have asked you for cash. I feel for ya

Jim

So what are you saying now? You're not going to give me the money? |club|

What are his reasons for starting up his own paysite? Is he strictly looking for independence? If not, how much do you value the potential of his ideas? Enough to work with him in a partnership, knowing you'll be responsible for a good portion of the work in the end?

Personally, I've always valued good ideas above most anything else. But maybe that's cuz I don't think of myself as having the most dedicated work ethic. |loony| However, I know most of my ideas to be bad ideas. In order for me to know the difference I have to share my ideas with people I trust - the kind of people who have a work ethic higher than my own.

Maybe a situation where the two of you pit each other's strengths/weaknesses against each other might prove beneficial for both of you.

Sure I'd return the favour of assistance and contacts/whatnot. But not money, I consider that kinda rude. Esp if the reasoning behind asking for a loan/funds was because you were helped.

-N

Agreed.

While there are plenty of things you could do for the person who helped you out, I personally would probably draw the line at money. Under the circumstances you described, that is.

If I thought the person was a ball of fire, with a program that would rake in the cash, loaning money might be a consideration.

If he is an ideas man then I would consider this:
Its people that make a succesful business not ideas. A hundred people can have a great idea but only one exceptional person would succeed.

If this guy has problems seeing things through then the WORST thing you could do is give him an easy ride by giving him the money. It takes away all the pressure because if he fails he loses your money not his. If however he has to raise the capital himself there is a much better chance he will see this through to the end and motivate himself a lot more. And you can always be there to offer a helping hand in the tough times. I have not been in the business long but I know starting an affiliate program would be fucking hard and that a helping hand would be worth its weight in gold.

From the amount of help you have given back to the adult WM community you need not feel guilty about not giving this guy money. The adult WM community is getting harder and harder to break into for newbies and if it was not for the help and advice of people like you so many webmasters would have failed. I have so many of your posts bookmarked and a few saved radio shows of yours too. You've already helped me quite a lot and I'm probably one of atleast a few hundred.

Think of all the webmasters you have helped over the years and what they would say if you asked them for a substantial loan for a questionable business idea. I could imagine getting a free linkback off many of the people you've helped would be hard enough!

Just a quick question that no one seems to of asked. How much where the buisness contacts worth? Did they single handidly catapult you to sucess? was this something that really only that person could do?

Where those contacts worth $10,000 or however much he is asking? Is there another way to repay him? Why not show him a few of your contacts that could potientially make him the money he needs? 10k is a big investment, did he try the bank, why didn't they loan it to him?

I'm a bit shrewd when it comes to deals, and even more when it comes from friends. I've always been over generious, and try to give back twice that of which was given to me. I do, however, like to know who i'm getting into bed width and why. I always ask myself 3 questions. What would he do if the situations where reversed? What do i have to sacrafice for this? and what can i give back thats in the same realm of what he gave me? It seems that the last questions answer would be to find him some contacts, and help him get his idea off the ground. 10k doesn't get an idea off the ground, hardwork and dedication do. 10k just mearly buys the resources in which to start.

Personally, I am extremely loyal to my friends. There is nothing that I generally wouldn't do for them and in the biz sense I will provide my services, contacts, references, equipment, tools, whatever.... no problem, no questions. BUT, if cash is involved the answer is generally no without the caveat of my having a percentage and if its major cash or the major portion then I have to have the major percentage... bottom line. Generally, if the person is that "on fire" then he shouldn't have a problem of getting cash and is just being lazy.

I also always remember this: friends screw you much less often but it always hurts more! |cry| IMHO