The Gop is gonna steal the nov elections again
 

another terror arrest

FBI disrupts New York City tunnel plot

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060707/...kxBHNlYwN0bQ--


funny how there werent any arrests for years

all of a sudden there are all these weak terror arrests

They are trying to show the voting public
that they should still be very afraid and only the GOP can protect them

Prepare to be assimilated by governor BorgBush of Florida, resistance is futile. :(

You didn't know that after the issues in Florida in 2000? What about he exit poles being so far off in Ohio in the districts that no longer use a paper trail?

We haven't been a democracy since he started running for office in 1998.

I am not a huge fan of bush either but I think I have come to realize the reason I dont like him is mostly religiously based

yes hes sneaky but so is every politician
yes hes lining his pockets but so does every politician

the more I look at it and taking away the religion angle and put aside my bias for being in the porn industry

hes no better or no worse then most other presidents

polls are not scientific

and are almost always pushed in one direction or another
you can change the outcome of a poll just by asking the same question and wording it differently

I think someone watches way too much Fox and the ONLY spin zone. :D

who me ?????
no fox for me :-)
I do sometimes watch Bill O Reilly


remember I started this thread
and like I said I dont like bush, he has made a lot of mistakes
I am just not ready to condem him for everything under the sun

I am just trying to point out that when it comes to politics that this board is very left and there are no opposing views

Tommy
Of all the bad events going on now that involves the United States, which one did Bush not cause?

he didnt cause north korea to fire those missles

hes not to blame for this bullshit coming out of iran

hes not really to blame for high gas prices

the border problem has been here for a long time way before bush

It's not fair to blame the monkey because the guy in the lab coat gave him the gun! He just didn't know what he was doing. |loony|

Sure, but how about the way his administration is choosing to deal with the problems? Or, better yet, how they're NOT?

but lets be fair here

look at high gas prices

the oil companies are independant companies operating in a free market

that means they can charge what ever they want
just like YOU can charge whatever you want on your websites

once katrina came along and knocked out all those refineries and drilling platforms
gas prices went thru the roof to around 3.25 a gallon because of the shortages

but the americian public paid it and demand didnt go down
sure they bitched and cryed but they paid it

now let me ask you a honest question
lets pretend your a oil company excutive

you know people will pay over 3 bucks a gallon for gas and even at that price they wont cut back much on their driving

how much would you charge for a gallon of gas

He and his cronies are FULLY responsible for everything happening in Iraq. It's their unjust war. They sent our troops there. The chaos that occurs due to their decisions is their responsibility. They decided to rape and pillage Iraq and they got just that.

I was at the gym reading the monitor as Bush was on while on the treadmill.

The text read that Bush was going to be meeting with Congress to discuss presidential power. Later on Bush talked about the GOP gaining control of the House and Senate.

Maybe I've watched too the last Star Wars too many time but Bush reminded me of Senator Palpatine who becomes Sith Lord Sidious.

If Cheney runs for president dressed in a black with a cape I'm moving to an island someplace.

But UW lets try and be fair here

thats my whole point of what i am saying
you guys blame bush for almost everything and I am sorry. I see a lot of fault but not to the extent that you guys do


if we never went to war with Iraq

your saying that all the bullshit with Iran wouldnt have happened ??

I think it would have been a lot worse
the iranians now know bush will use milltary force and that hes not the kind of guy that just bluffs

and they have americian troops and bases on their border
those troops arent half a world away fliping burgers

they are 100 miles away and combat ready and hardened

I never could understand how America can dictate who has nuclear weapons and who doesn't. It seems to me that the last people with that power should be the people that have used them in the past.

Clinton talked to North Korea and had a deal in place. Bush ignored North Korea and probably just hoped they would go away. Bush has also been bribing Iran to not make nuclear weapons and North Korea just wants the same considerations. Bush has proved if you stomp your feet and throw a fit, he will bribe you to stop. While he may not have caused the foot stomping, he could have stopped it if he only talked to them.

As for Iran, you said it yourself in the title of this thread and your first post. Did we just discover that Iran was going nuclear? Or, have we known about it for many years?

High gas prices are not really a problem. We pay less for a gallon or liter of gas than almost any other country in the world. Even at $3/gallon, it's still some of the cheapest liquid we can buy. How much is a pint sized bottle of water these days? And, at $3/gallon, gas prices are still lower than the inflation rate since you might say, gas was cheap. If you follow the inflation rate from 1969 when gas was $.34/gallon until today, we should be paying over $6/gallon.

And again, there is only a border problem if you make one up. A lot of illegal immigrants come to the US and pay taxes. A lot don't pay taxes but still, a lot do. What happens to the refunds or Social Security taxes? These immigrants can't very well ask for a refund. This came out Wednesday. "The economy of the country's largest city and the entire nation would collapse if illegal immigrants were deported en masse, New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg told a Senate committee hearing Wednesday."
http://www.forbes.com/work/feeds/ap/...ap2859726.html

Again, you answered everything you just wrote in your first post. It's all Republican Politics and you do have to look at the party leader for the cause.

Speaking as an outsider (non-American) I rarely see a "opposing view" from America. I would say that at least 95% of Americans who have expressed political views are of the view that George w. is an asshole and responsible for most of America's problems. I can honestly say that (going by people I have spoken to or read articles by) a larger percentage of the Europeans think George W. is OK than do Americans. Hell I'd say a larger % of French like George W. than Americans (and the French look for any excuse to say bad things about any American).

(Not arguing the point, genuinely asking for clarification.) How do illegal immigrants pay taxes? You need a tax id number to do that, and you cannot get one if you are there illegally.

He needs to sit down and chat with them. Face to face. The USA has lost a lot of pull because we're in debt to China due to Dubya's tax cuts/spending policies and allowing China to peg their currency to US dollars. NK sees Iran pushing the USA around and figures it's time to do the same.

If Sadaam was still in power he would have rolled his tanks into Iran. Unfortunately when Sadaam tried to open a dialogue (at least 3 times) through his brother's in Jordan sending letters to Dubya they went ignored. Peace could have been achieved through talk but Dubya's supporters want killings instead. The USA can't go into Iran without making things much worse here. They know it. Of course Dubya will either nuke them or at least start some shit right before he leaves office just like his daddy did.

That's true. It was Rice that wrote the memos saying that US oil companies need to cut production in order to raise the price of gasoline in the USA and it was Cheney that met with the oil company leaders behind closed doors to define the US Energy policy. Those are the two largest effects.

However, pumping up the Chinese economy while weakening ours, devaluing the dollar and destabilizing the middle east have some effect on gas prices. There's no way to deny that.

He did not cause this in any way. He did nothing about it until it became an election issue at the exact same time that the feds decided to stop producing the M3 report. He is not to blame for it all. I don't think that Clinton or Gore would have done much to prevent it either. I do think he's using it to draw attention away from the lack of the M3 report. It's in his friend's best interest and it's also the best way to print fake money for about 2 years. Isn't that how long he's in office?

Actually it's estimated that 30% of illegals pay taxes. It's estimated that 70% of business that hire illegals do NOT pay taxes. Just nother reason why it's so profitable.

Imagine how much money the IRS could get if they went after this money. Of course they've decided to go after the smaller business instead.

You're talking with Americans that are smart enough to communicate with people from other countries. Most conservative republicans that I know are either very wealthy or so close minded that they think there is no reason to speak with anyone that even lives in another part of the USA much less in another country.

It's really scary in places where Dubya supporters hang out. A difference of opinion is met with extreme anger or just plain hate. The capability for rational discussion is almost nonexistent. Not all but at least 9 out of 10.

I don't extend my argument to anything outside of Iraq. I'm only referring to what has happened in Iraq since we invaded. My sense of global politics isn't large enough to go beyond that. ;)

Fake tax ids. A lot of employers genuinely don't know they are hiring illegals. Sooner or later, it catches up with the employer but only for submitting inaccurate TINs. They are fined about $20 per TIN. I know that's what I was fined for submitting inaccurate TINs :)

also these are not easy problems

and the Arabs want it complicated

there isn't a clear cut solution to any of these things

fucking around with a country's that have nuclear capabilities is VERY DANGEROUS

remember most of their nuclear programs are probably a lot further along then they let on
we keep shit like that classified why wouldn't they

so of course he has no choice but to play nice for now


Jim I feel the same as you
Gas is way under valued, I feel sorry for the average Joe and that the increases are cutting in to his wallet but everything sooner or later goes up

Sir Moby do you really think the CEO of Exxonmobil needs Rice or Cheney to tell them how much they can charge

these are billion dollar company's and they have the best and brightest people this country has to offer

just like when they talk about refineries
its all bullshit
do you REALLY belive Big Oil couldn't build a refinery if they wanted to

we are sticking nuclear waste in yucca mountain

But big oil with all their lobbyists and political contributions
cant get a refinery approved... Cmon Please


UW the muslems were getting a bit uppidty and someone needed to get bitch slaped :-)

are you wrong about the war , no your not but your not exactly right either

Imagine how much the IRS gets from the 30% that pay taxes :) There are millions of illegal imigrants working in the country now. That is a shitload of money going unclaimed.

I just like to consider it rent for working in the US.

and 30% is nothing

we end up paying all the medical bills
they use our roads, our police and all of our goverment services

in fact they cause our goverment services to spend more money

if they obyed the law and came here legally then they wouldnt have to worry about not getting their money back from social security

thats why I really like the Fair Tax act
http://www.fairtax.org

it removes federal withholding and replaces it with a federal sales tax

which means no more IRS, no more forms to file
employers wouldnt have to withhold anything

and this way all the illegals would have to pay federal taxes
every one of them would pay their fair share of taxes

How about this?

George Bush declares that if an illegal alien jons the army for 8 years and kills an enemy , they get citizenship.

Two birds with one stone.

Then all we have to do is bring back the neutron bomb.

Every time a US serviceman is killed, we neutron a muslim town. Muslims respect power, they are only rebelling because they see us as weak.

It would work. Right now the us soldiers just look like meek little fairys, hiding behind walls.

Thats bullshit. Sadaam ignored ever countries attempt to get him to comply with the UN for 10 years. Of which Clinton did nothing but sit back and get blowjobs. It was only after someone came in office and said enough is enough did he want to talk. Wanting to talk was another bullshit smokescreen he was trying to blow up the worlds ass for no complying. Clinton was to busy fucking around on his wife for 8 years then managing this country. To busy showing up on Leno to blow sax and worry about 1 billion people just being rolled over into a communist state called China.

Also this 30% pay taxes thing SirMoby is right. It's estimated. That means they don't know for sure. I can estimate and say it's only 2% and I would be just on the mark as those who claim it's 30% cause no one knows for sure. Hell I can estimate my cock is 10 inches when I'm sleeping but for some reason when I wake up it's not true.

Fair Tax looks good. I recently saw a movie on Yahoo about taxes. Someone took out a full page ad in the New York Times offering a reward of $50k to anyone that could show him the law saying we have to pay income tax. They had an IRS worker saying, "I thought I would kill 2 birds with 1 stone. I would shut up the people that claim there is no law and pocket $50" She went on to explain that she looked and looked and could not find the law. A federal court finally ordered that the government did not have to show a law to collect income taxes :)

As for immigrants, recent numbers are at about 12 million. So, that would be about 3.6 million pay income taxes and more importantly, social security. The 3.6 million paying this more than makes up for them using our roads, medical services and such. Even if it didn't, they buy our products and do help the economy more than they hurt it. Again, from your boy Bloomberg, Tommy..."Although they broke the law by illegally crossing our borders . . . our city's economy would be a shell of itself had they not, and it would collapse if they were deported," he said. ``The same holds true for the nation.""

Illegal immigration is nothing new. Just as flag burning isn't anything new. Why do you suppose these have been such a big issues? I was glad to see the flag burning issue go down the tubes. And, I will be glad after November when the hoopla about illegal immigration goes away again. It seems to me that the government as a whole could really be working on things just a little more important.

Bottom line..., Bush is the worst President in History. He makes Hoover look like a genius and Nixon look like a boyscout. Because of his lies, thousands of US citizens and over 100,000 Iraqis have been killed. Because of this moronic war, he has made the military so thin, they are scraping the bottom of the barrel to fill boots. The quality of the solders has not been this low since the end of the draft in 73. He thinks history will show him as a great President. I believe history will show him as committing the worst war crimes since Hitler.

high taxes is a major issue
and nobody knows how many illegals are here

when a group of people that number between 12 and 20 million dont pay taxes that means everyone else has to pay a lot more

also if ya think about it
a family medical plan runs around 1000 a month
thats about 30% of what most of em make

think about it from a business prospective

can a business survive if only 30% of the people pay for the goods or services they use or consume

could you run a deli and have 70% of your customers walking out with out paying

Not sure if this whole post was just a typo or something else. First, The Communist Party of China (CPC) has led the PRC under a one-party system since the country's establishment in 1949. Next, Bill Clinton was on Leno in June of 92 while he was running for President. He was President from 93-2001. And as for the UN, the US needs to start to comply with the UN before we expect that from any other country.

Isn't it possible that those workers would be replaced with US workers earning a higher wage and paying in a higher tax bracket? I can't imagine the illegals are doing work that no one really needs done.

It's not bullshit. Those communications did occur.

My opinion is that the middle east could still be at peace. Your opinion is that we needed a war in Iraq. Does that mean that the facts I mention above are bullshit? :)

When bank robbers end up taking hostages do we go in and just start killing everyone or do we try to negotiate in order to save the lives of the innocent?

30,000, 50,000, 100,000, 1,000,000 lives. What is the number of innocent lives lost that makes the war a bad thing?

Clinton may have been sleeping around but he achieved some great things. What has Dubya achieved so far?

and since those workers would be getting paid a fair wage
wouldn't they be spending more

wouldn't they take their kids to Disneyland and buy cars and living room furniture

wouldn't that help the economy also

AND they would pay federal taxes

instead of the illegals sending the money back home to Mexico to pay for beans

The idea sounds good and while I don't disagree with it I'm concerned in how it will effect the country.

1. It encourages savings and now that we are a service oriented country if people start saving instead of spending our economy dies. We no long manufacture anything of value.

2. What happens when I start buying things from other countries? If I were to take all my profits from investments and simply buy things from over seas. I don't buy a vacation home in the USA. Instead I buy one in Canada or Mexico.

3. When I buy things in Canada (they have a VAT) I can always not pay the VAT by using cash :)

Maybe these things are easily addressed by minds that have more knowledge on this issue then mine.

Sir Moby please explain to me the great things Clinton did other then make people feel as though they were talking to a movie star. Did he create the internet like his buddy said? My opinion is not that we needed a war. It's that talks were going on for 10 years and nothing came from them. No other country was willing to put a stop to him dropping people in meat grinders because they were benefiting from trade with Iraq. You keep saying talk talk talk. Well you know there are some people in this world who love it when governments just talk. There’s an old saying. Talk is cheap. Actions speak louder then words. When you talk to someone for ten years about fixing an issue and all they do is toss you the finger, then what? Talk more? Tommy said this war was not Bushes fault and he is correct. It's not his dad's either. Ever hear of the Iran contra affair? That's where all this shit started. In fact it goes back more; it goes back to the late-70's when another democrat was in office. And that democrat claims he was attacked by a rabbit while on a boat and also saw UFO’s. His thought’s were, hey let's help the Afghanis against Russia and give them some weapons, lets not worry if any other countries like IRAN will get pissed and maybe take some Americans hostage for 444 days. I don’t blame him for trying; hell the Russians were trying to topple a democratic government. But he should have known better, the country has been in and out of civil wars since 600ad. Then once again a republican gets in office and people shit their pants. Knowing republicans have traditionally used the military without hesitation. I agree with Tommy 100% the Bushes did not start this problem. It’s crazy to say he did when you are dealing with countries that have been warring since the dawn of time over sand.

Ok I love argueing with you guys but I'm on my way home. Post back later. lol

its very radicial so its a bit scary

but it reduces the size of goverment and thats always good
people saving money is always a good thing

and sooner or later saved money gets spent

and how many times does a contractor ask you for cash or offer a discount for cash

avoiding taxes by using cash happens now

I am not saying its perfect the way it is
it needs some work but I think its a great idea and great ideas dont come around that often

I read somewhere that there are one hundred and sixty thousand pages in the federal tax code

and a few lines of text replaces that

also the way the tax system is now
the common man cant understand it and that allows to politicans to use the confusion to fuck the average Joe

this is so simple
the tax is 23% if it goes up everybody instantly knows it

juggernaut
bill Clinton created the housing boom

and that's one of the best domestic things any president has done in the last 50 years or so

the housing boom that allowed Bush to go around taking credit for how good the economy was

housing is usually 8 to 15% of the nations GNP
but in the last 5 years its hoovering around 40 to 50% of the nations GNP

what would happen to this economy if the housing boom didn't happen

it would be in the toilet

would you like to know how this happened

see Clinton made a trade agreement with china called
Central America Free Trade Agreement Implementation Act

and that allowed china to invest their money in the us

china choose to invest their money in americian Tbills

the us goverment takes the money from Tbills or tresurarys and lends that money to banks

since there were so much money available to lend to banks that forced the intrest rate to come down and it made the lending requirments looser

since the intrest rate came way down and mortages were easyer to get a lot of people were taking mortages and buying houses

since there was such a demand for houses the houses went up in price

but thats not the end of it

since the intrest rate was so low and the value of a house went up so much
people that already owned homes took equity out of their homes and used that money to buy cars and furniture and computers

which drove up the demand for workers

but thats not the end of it either

those new workers that had money to spend
they went out and bought clothes and pizza and computers and tvs

and that created a demand for even more workers

If that is true then the majority Muslim population of Iraq are the last people who should have Dubya bombs lobbed their way. Saddam Hussain lead a secular, non-Islamic government. Any goodwill towards Muslims from Saddam has merely been for PR and ultimately control (descrating a Koran by printing it in his own blood comes to mind.) They were victims under Saddam and they are still victims now. Perhaps worse off.

One could say "well great, that's why the US is bringing them democracy!" If thats the case then it isn't going well. Throughout the world there's a lot of pissed off Muslims who have seen the US foreign policy under Dubya in action over Foxnews (in all its pretentiousness) and Al Jazeera -- or have experienced it personally. Because of Dubya's administration non-Muslims in other Western countries have had their view of the US sour. Dubya is not totally to blame. Bad US foreign policy is nothing new. It's just that its a lot more transparent and seems magnified under his administration.

Before and during the Sept 11 fallout I was inherently Pro-American. I was glad to have my country lend any support needed to find OBL and his band of terrorists. Up until the months after Sept. 11 I hardly considered the US very much different from Canada. I was younger and ignorant about my country (when you're young and constantly being exposed to US television its easy to forget you're Canadian if you don't keep your nationality in check.) The Bush Administration has created a polarisation which I did not expect.

Bush's America seems very different than the one I grew up with. And if America has made any mistakes in its past this administration is repeating them during record time.

The world (and much of the US population, obviously) feel like Dubya is kicking the proverbial bee's nest for short term gain at the expense of future stability.

A flat federal sales tax would reduce to almost nothing the governments surveillance of individuals in their homes.

Therefore it won't ever happen.

Especially not here in the US. It might be tried in europe somewhere.

Besides, it would instantly quadruple the cash gray and black economy.

Quadruple? shit, Octuple.

they'd have to make cash illegal.

It would be great tho. Tax would be completely visible anytime you bought something. Income tax is semi invisible - for most people - the money just never shows up in their paycheck.

I'd vote for it.