Surfer-Submitted Photos
 

I'm looking into the possibilites of adding this feature to one of my sites. There was a thread here in the past dealing with the legal ramifications of such sites. After a little personal research and phone calls, I now know how to make it legal - as legal as anything apparently is nowadays.

What I don't know is how best to setup everything. How to motivate surfers. Getting the ball rolling, I suppose, would be the hard part. High traffic levels would be required, coupled with a frequency of exhibitionists. :)

Does anyone have any experience or knowledge that might help?

I feel I might also be a little naive here. Perhaps the surfer submitted photos belong to webmasters like myself, pushing supposed amateur pics? Or maybe they are the real deal?

In any case, I may have to wait until traffic is at a suitable level. My intial gameplan for generating submissions is this:

1. Add some exclusive amateur content shot by myself.

2. Offer incentives - competitions.

God, I sound lame. *L* Any incite into how I might get the ball rolling would be appreciated :)

I myself have think of sucha a thing , btw i am still thinking i have the domain for it, and still working out the legal part, because i am from the netherlands and the rules there are easier then the rules of the us ! what i think about surfers sending their own content is a great idea, but ....yeah there is the but, i would send them an email or contract wich says they will agree with the rules that the pics will be posted on a adult site + i like to see an identitie for age , and some other legal things! before you start this kind of thing, i would do some marketing, promoot your site tell the world when it will be up , magazines and all, the plans for my site are already roling.........most part telling people what the site is about and when it will be open, for marketing i cound on 4 months before opening..........Lets hope it will work! Btw i know it will work, if you got the idea work it out and explore.Good luck with it.

I have 2 sites like that, one for regular non-adult content and one I'm almost done with that I will allow some adult content on. I have a disclaimer written by an attorney friend of mine that will go up before the site will be open to the public..and will be on the index opening page also..and on it's own page linked to from all the script pages..
I have not started to promote them except for a small link on my tgp. You need to offer something unique to get the ball rolling..

On a past project (5 years ago? LOL) we did something like this - what we did to get surfers interested was go thru our content & find amateurish looking pics & fake submitted them (made up names & emails & bios & whatnot) It did work, because as soon as we put a few up there, people saw that it was legit & felt more comfortable about sending in their pics.

I knew I could count on you folks to deliver. I'm also pleased to see other webmasters who think/know this is a viable type of project. I feel it's important to explore different possibilities. I'm quite excited at the moment about hybrid sites. It's interesting to build one kind, say a standard tgp, and watch it naturally evolve into something more - determined, I would say, by it's niche and the associated exploitable possibilities. Damn, gotta stop reading that dictionary...

Greenguy
That's pretty much what I figured. Actually seeing it come from someone else makes me think it's viable. Can I ask how it worked out? What are your thoughts on this stuff? It seems like a good idea to me: amateur content, surfer involvement, reality, FREE LOL. There's obviously some success stories out there (not that I'm trying to compete, just hoping to diversify). Reckon it's something that I could make work alongside gals, free sites, avs etc on one site?

Harumff..copycat..:)
I did that too..didnt know you didthat..:)

|jester|

It worked really well, but like most of the goofy side projects, we never gave it enough attention & it died :(

I don't think I'd do it again without the proper licenses & releases - even then we found we were getting submits of content that was not "amateur"

And that is the real problem. A site owner can never be sure that the images that are submitted really are submitted with the permission of the person who appears in the photo.

At the legal seminar at Internext I understand that the experts there told those present that link list owners were now likely to be held liable for the content on the sites that they linked to.

If that applies to link list owners how much more will it apply to site owners who display images sent in by faceless, nameless surfers.

Disclaimers probably won't protect you from anything and the only attorneys you should be consulting are those with a solid background in internet law as it applies to the adult area.

Like GG said I think you will always have to deal with morons submitting Non-Amateur photos of content that doesnt belong to them, if nothing else, even with real licensed content you will save yourself the risk, and headache and if you pick and choose your content carefully you can pretty much have the surfers believing just about whatever. Atleast I would imagine, but Ive never tried this type of project before either.

Submitting pictures from surfers is foolish at best at worse down right dangerous. Without full 2257 documentation and a maodel release you are putting yourself in line to get sued.

For instance a couple are going along great and taking some erotic pictures of each other in private. One dumps the other who decides to get even they send the private pictures to you.

You put them on the net they get noticed and the aggrieved party goes to see their lawyer who sues you. Your defense is

"We did EVERYTHING necessary to ensure the pictures were being sent by the model"

Their reply is "You got 2257 documents and a model release?

You "No"

Them "Isn't that nomal in your industry?"

You "Yes, but it's not required in law according to a court in Georgia"

Them "So you did not do everything possible?"

Great defense, how much do you have to lose in damages?

And all the while their are lots of content providers supplying amateur pictures that can be made to look grainy or worse.

Well, you'd think surfer submitted photos would be illegal, but they're not because picposts are legal. I wouldnt use surfer submitted photos in a paysite member section though.

What is legal and what is going to get you sued in a civil court are two different things.

Also put up a picture of a 16 year old and see if that is legal.

Defense "The guy clicked a box on my site to say the model was over 18"

Judge "18 months, enjoy your stay. Next case."

Okay - first off: Paul, chill out. You seem to have taken the mere proposal of surfer-submissions as a personal affront. If you're going to address me or the points originated by me in a thread, be sure to keep two civil hands on the keyboard. This is a discussion forum, not GFY, not an after-game brall.

Overall it seems we're back to square one. There appears to be no definitive answer about the legality here. I've spoken to internet lawyers here in the UK who have conflicting views. I visit successful sites employing surfer-submissions and wonder who is right. Before I submitted this thread I assumed I knew the legal side; now, thanks to the help of Paul :), and others, it appears that nothing is certain. Sites of this nature exist - successful sites. I think all any of us can admit, without being spurious, is: We don't know.

Greenguy - Is it possible for you to get the owner of one of the more successful sites like this over here? I'm sure if everything is kept civilised, we could all learn a lot. I know I'd certainly like a clearer picture. Any chance you could swing it?

Well I'm no lover of Paul Markham but I didn't see him as coming across in a manner that was uncivil.

There are some of us who don't mince words and we use blunt terms. If you don't like that blunt approach well .....

In truth the very last people you need to hear from are those who run the sort of site you are interested in. The people you should be talking to are those lawyers over in the States who spoke at that Internext seminar.

They are the ones who know how things stand in the States and that is where you need to worry about what is acceptable and what is not.

Just because you live outside the US does not mean that you and your site are not governed by the laws that apply there.

Ackkkkkkkkk thats what its in my mind all the time, i am thinking of 2 lawyers, i have a dutch one but all my sites are hosted in the us, and all english.......i use all sponsors not dutch.....(i have one sponsor dutch, but then they have all stuff agains the rules of us)now what if i ask dutch people to send in pics? here in the netherlands 16 years they can be on adult sites? This is agains my rules!I am fighting with that part, i know i get pics from dutch people but how to do that with the us rules?So yes it isnt that easy to start sucha site....but with alot of diging and exploring and knowing all the legal parts it will work! So kristian go for it!

The prosecution rests your honour!

Well i wonder that, if i have my stuff on a dutch domain,dutch adult host... (you know the rules are different in the netherlands for adult) by dutch rules , wich is agains the us rules, but i live outside the us i live in the netherlands, who is gonna stop me then from being on the net?

Gutnick v Dow Jones

look for that in Google - there is your precedent.

lets see, with 14 we may have sex, with 16 we can be on a adult site, with 18 we may drink booze and smoke grass(grass legal in the netherlands) and we may vote|sad| animal sex is alowed here, scat all the dirty things are legal..........and me wondering why more and more dutch webmasters are getting blocked by using some sponsors.Now dutch rule says 14 year old girl may have sex even with an older person, why, because the goverment say:they can choose themselfs with that age, now animal sex ...i never heard a sheep saying yes i wanna have sex with you??? You go here to a tabacco shops and see magasins like, ****** , sixteen etc etc............Now nobody can stop that..why dutch rules its legal here. As long it is dutch with dutch people its oke, i have read some interviews about owners from sex magazins here, they get lots of pics send in from people who wanna be in that magazins, the owners shoose the pics and they dont look if the girls or guys are 18+ well CP is still forbidden here, but hee age 16 is not forbidden???but for me everything under the age of 18 is CP.I know if you got something with dutch on your site below 18 is forbidden in other countrys, but in this way, i dont force surfers to be on my sites...they make that choise themselfs, so if i would not promoot that site in other countrys but i am in the ses....who is gonna stop me then, i dont force them to look inside my page, so will it be .....a person sees my site and say damn these girls are 16, but then dutch girls, dutch host, dutch site ist legal, on that point i only think a dutch can do something, well nothing because i dont do something illigal......

Not long ago, I had someone submit a site very similar to what is being spoken about here...

The guy said that he was 2257 compliant.... his ownly proof of ownership was an email from the people sending in pics of whomever... how does one know that that pic belongs to the person behind the email...

With the new 2257 laws coming into affect and Ashcroft having the justice department wading through the porn industry, I've heard that even a link list owner will be prosecuted if they are listing the likes of this type of site and a complaint is made.

So not only will the webmaster who owns the site go down so will any lists accepting and listing his/her site...

Scary thought to be prosecuted because you listed a site that didn't hold the correct 2257 information for the images appearing on that site...

Are link list owners prepared to take that risk and lose everything that they have worked hard for???

As I suggested to this webmaster, perhaps he needs to be writing to the guys who know internet law and the adult industry, I sent him to adult site law... now whether this guy took notice or not.. who knows....

stuveltje

Thanks for the encouragement, dude. If I find any definitive answers I'll certainly keep you in mind, as well as posting the info here. Best of luck to you too!

The Other Steve
You're more than blunt; you're acidic and argumentative. I came here for help from webmasters with more industry-experience than me. I've spoken to internet lawyers, as mentioned, and asking webmasters here - who may own such sites and/or have had numerous dealings with lawyers on these issues - still seems like a good idea. I would love to see the owner of project voyeur, for instance, relate to us part of his knowledge and experience. If you cannot be friendly with me, please don't even address me or refer to me.

stuveltje

Gutnick v Dow Jones

means that where the site is hosted, posted and whatever is totally irrelevant.

It is now down to where the site is viewed and how badly the Justice Department wants the brownie points for convicting someone that they consider to be a paedophile.

ROFLMAO - sorry if I'm not touchy feely enough for you and I hope I haven't scarred your emotional psyche too much.

|waves| hya marie! yep us rules and every where except netherlands!!! we dont need that thing here, now i wont do anything to go agains the rules with content, but i have seen sponsors with pics , with the 2257 laws and those girls on the pics, well believe me they are definitly not 18.papers can be fake. As a LL owner i can make rules but its not my duty to check every sites content which is submitted at my LL if the 2257 is real. As a free site builder and i buy my content and i get the 2257 with it, i expect it is real, but what after a while its not???With this case it will be the same the picks sending in.....thats why i say, dig in the legal part , be sure you have done what is to be done, and then yes a site like that will work...

Kristian|waves|
you can always contact me thru icq...btw i am a dudin
and we are close neighbours|shake|

Hi Stuveltje |waves|

The new 2257 requires you to have the custodian of records listed on every page of your site... not just the warning page....

The custodian of records is the person who owns the images... so for example... if I bought a set of pics from Paul Markham then the custodian of records would be him or his photographer who has all the legal documentation.... 2 forms of id - proof of age and signed model releases....

Now with a site like this - sure it can be done... however just having on a page that the models were over the age of 18 at the time that the photos were taken is not good enough anymore.... Where is the proof that the images belong the person who sends the email to the guy running the site????

Better still - where is that image viewed, where is the link list or site hosted???? Doesn't matter which country you are in, if a US citizen can view porn on his pc using the internet and is offended by what he sees then the dutch law, the australian law... the figian law doesn't come into it..... or for that matter the UK law doesn't come into it either....

Take note of what Greenguy said... which seems to have been missed a little by some....

Marie|waves| i totally agree with what you said, but just like you mention GG quote, i mention something the same in my first post Because yes , you know i mention to you a while ago, i am working on a thing where the surfers are involved and this mentioned here has all to do with the site i am working on!

Sorry if I did not say what you wanted to hear, but I talk straight and there is very rarely any malice in my intentions. You wanted someone with experience well how about 25 years shooting & selling porn?

The Internet is not judged by different rules than anything else when it comes to this question. You post a nude picture of a girl without the proper preperations, you could be lining yourself up for a lot of problems.

Don't bother asking an Internet lawyer just ask a lawyer who knows publication laws and ask him what wil happen if;

(1) You post a picture of a 15 year old in the UK?

(2) Or a 17 year old who signed a model release?

(3) Or a person who did not give permission to have their pictures posted on the net?

Answers.

(1) Go to jail and be listed as a sex offender.
(2) Her parents have to sign the model release she is not old enough.
(3) Hope their family have not got enough money to sue you.

And the bottom line is Visa are changing the rules and making it twice as tough as it needs to be, why? Because of people who want to put up pictures without 2257, model releases and the proper preperation.

Or think if they are in Holland they can do as they please. Fine then find a Dutch dialer to take the business, while the rest suffer.

If you want to make money go around searching ell the content providers for amateur pictures there are 1,000 of sets that will do the job. Plus you will be legal and above board. Downside is it will cost you money.

he just got an idea and want to try that, and yes then you have to deal with legal stuff and all, and we all know that!!!Sometimes you can have an idea but dont know the all ins and out of it, and you find out its harder to make that idea happen then you thought........thats bizz learning and exploring and thats why he posted on this board, nothing bad just asking advice! Yeah and the dutch rules suck, and we all know that not one country can make the rules for the whole world!

Paul - I agree with what you're saying, just not with your aggressive and argumentative tone. I came here for help from people with your experience, not to hear presumptions about A) how much money I have, B) what I intend to do and C) how I intend to do it.

I have enough money not to work ever again. I work in this industry because I'm hoping to eventuallu actualize an ambition with a different professional agenda. I also shoot my own content - certainly not on your scale - and buy regularly from 5 different providers.

I came here for help. And, just in case no one tells you, there are good ways and bad for offering advice.

If anyone has a problem with me, send me your address and we'll discuss it in person. I'll be in the states for a vacation after I move house in a couple of weeks. I'd be more than happy to sit down with you and discuss your issues. Actually, I think I'd find it incredibly rewarding, both in clearing up any anamosity you might have towards me and picking your brains - since I clearly know very little :)

PM me or email ksellers@btopenworld.com

Thanks :)

I like this idea... but how many would do it.... how many of them will sign something they don't understand..... how many will lie saying they belong to the pic??? how do you know that they do or don't, unless they are in the pic itself....

A lot of people won't want to give you their information, they don't know who you are, they are dealing with a faceless person on the internet, someone who is suddenly asking for the personal information.... the same as a faceless person is sending in a pic which may belong to them... or then again, it may not....

Using amateur content - like Paul says will make it legal.... the models see a person, they hand over the ID that is required along with signed model releases which are kept by the custodian of records.... and yes its going to cost something for the images which will give the webmaster a license to use that content... but at least then you won't go to jail or be sued for posting pics that don't belong to the faceless emailer...

So learning something new everyday is what this business is all about, unfortunately some don't like to be told the downside of the adult business....

This thread is very interesting indeed....

How did this thread turn into what it is now? LOL

I can only give advice based on US laws, which state that you MUST have a model release or license to use the content that is on your site.....PERIOD.

I'm sure there are alot of popular websites that accept surfer submitted pics - this does not mean it's legal.

If you're US based, don't put anything up that you don't have paperwork for - plain & simple.

If you're not US based, contact a lawyer in your cournty for the legal terms & whatnot. Also, don't be surprised if you don't get link trades because your laws differer from mine. Just because it's legal where you live doesn't mean I'm gonna link to it :)

Be legal = stay safe :D

oke , what i told are some possibllitys, what if a make an appointment with those people and see thm face to face and explain them the rules and lett them sign the papers, i have spoke with my dutch laywer about this, because i wanna know the dutch side and the us side, for us i cant make an appointment with the people but for the dutch i can! so many possiblitys, but i am going to wonder if this is about getting free pics for your site and taking money away from the content providers or just rules........ anyway i hope all works out and these kind of threads are good to see what everybody thinks........ Have a great day all!!!|waves|

Apologies

Listen, I know I've come across sounding a little harsh in this forum. I'm sorry if that's pissed anyone off. Probably it's the way I write, my tone (and some what I've said). If you could actually hear/see me though, you'd know that I genuinely only want to learn from you people and make a few friends on the way. When it comes to this business, I know only a handful of what I should, but I suppose my enthusiasm makes me as opinionated as I am hungry to learn.

I also hate finding out that I'm wrong :)

Sorry )|roses|


Paul is still a wanker tho! (KIDDING)

I know, that's why I've lasted so long. Empathy with the consumer. |jester|

I did that with my first site, JamesandVictoria. We made it such a hastle that not a lot of people submitted pictures. We accepted the pics and then sent model releases to the submitters and would not post them until we had them in hand. Some of the pictures were crazy and took a lot of cropping. One woman sent us a picture of her standing next to a bed with a 2 or 3 year old boy standing next to her. What the hell are people thinking?

Paul

Lucky for me I'm not one of your customers |pissleft| he he :)

Jim

That kind of situation has pretty much turned me off the idea. I suppose it's the problem that always occurs when you deal with the masses who don't hold professional ethics.

Another question for Jim or anyone else who might want to chime in:

What do you reckon about faking it with paid amateur content? Fake tgps - if you have enough and the traffic - work okay. What do you think?

As far as I know 2257 is an untested law.. as in .. no case has ever gone to court... someone want to correct me...??

So despite laws and arguments, saying that something is "illegal" is sort of "wrong" till it is tested..

If you do it, you should be aware of the consequences, as with the rest of your biz.

DD

Holly shit I went to bed at 3am and this thread had moths at best, now it's a full fledged 2 pager....

|knockout|