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I'm As Mad As Hell, And I'm Not Going To Take This Anymore!
...with a nod to Howard Beale (Peter Finch).
Pre-checked cross sales have gotten completely out of control. So the following has been added to the submit page on all my TGP's. EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY: Any gallery that promotes a sponsor that uses pre-checked cross sales below the submit button on their join page will not be listed. click for example In the grand scheme of things my sites are just an inflamed pimple of the buttocks of the WWW, but perhaps some others with a bit more influence will see this and follow suit. If not, well... at least I tried. |
Hello to all the users of NATS |waves|
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Toby,
For the benefit of some (including me), would you please explain this? I don't know what "pre-checked cross sales" are and why they are not good. Thank you. ---AW |
View the example image linked in my first post.
The two check boxes pointed at by the red text are pre-checked cross sales, meaning that the boxes are checked by default when the page loads. In order to NOT accept the offer the surfer must uncheck the boxes before they click the submit button to process the sign-up. Look further down to find the fine print explaining the terms of these cross sales. If the surfer fails to scroll down and see the pre-checks before clicking submit then they've actually just signed up for three sites instead of just one. If their spam filters eat the join notification emails (which is highly probable these days) then they'll be unaware of the additional trial memberships they just agreed to and therefore won't know to cancel those before the trial periods expire. End result. $1 for intended trial join, $1 for one of the cross sale trial joins, $39.95 and $39.97 for full month rebill on uncancelled cross sale trials. Total $81.92 before it shows up on their monthly statement. If the billing cycles fall just right, or they don't check the bill right away when it arrives in the mail there could be second pair of monthly rebills added on. Do you think that surfer is ever going to join a porn site again? On top of that, many times there will be additional cross sales on the cancel pages. If the surfer isn't on his toes he'll end up being billed for even more sales after thinking he's cancelled the others. This sleazy shit has to stop before it kills this entire industry. |
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I wonder if it might be worth either starting a new thread or listing in this thread all the sponsors that we know are using pre-checked cross selling techniques like this. Some webmasters may not even be aware of the join forms on some tours that have these pre-checked cross sales on them. And maybe some sponsors will see the light if they can read how much their affiliate webmasters object to this practice.
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Is it the sponsor who selects them, or is it the affiliate who requests them? I mean I have never seen an option to "allow cross sales" or anything, but then I had only heard about these before in this post.
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Simon, there are rumblings of the jungle drums in regards to compiling and maintaining a comprehensive list on an independent domain.
Here's a partial list... OCCash TopBucks Brazzers Dee's Evil Empire: DeeCash Rage Cash Extreme Paychecks Triple X Cash Jason & Alex Elite Dollars Mayors Money Join Right Now Bad Girl Bucks Milf Cash Epic Cash Pure Meds |
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There are a very few sponsors that do pay revshare percentages on cross sales, but they are very few. 99.44% of the time they are of absolutely no benefit to the affiliate. |
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*** You guys are talking as if this is some new thing. Epoch has been offering cross sales for YEARS! I can remember when Jim worked at Flash Cash, once of his jobs was to try & find programs to do cross sales with. As far as the surfer joining a site, if they are dumb enough to put their CC info in there without reading the entire page - and there's not a lot of text on the example Toby posted - who's fault is that? Everyone that reviews complains that the submitters need to learn how to read, yet those same people often support surfers that need to learn how to read. I'm thinking it's time for Jim to get back in the game & assist in this thread, since I know he's had 1st hand experience with the affiliate side of cross-sales. |
Yes, I agree, cross sales are nothing new. For quite some time I've had a personal policy of not promoting sponsors using any form or pre-checked cross sale.
What seems to have increased dramatically in recent months is their use below the submit button with text that makes it less than clear that you're really signing up for another trial membership, with terms in fine print even further down the page. If you view the actual page from my example in a browser window at 1024x768 the pre-checks are not visible without scrolling down, and that's not by accident. |
At 1024x768, the bottom thing on my browser is the time that you started the thread:
Yesterday, 08:44 PM I know it's not the same thing, but come on. Who doesn't know that internet pages scroll down? That you should read the entire page before entering your credit card info? This isn't exactly a porn problem either - there's a lot of pre-checked boxes all over the internet. |
Of course you should read the full page, but the sponsor shouldn't be deceptive about it either. They're taking advantage of people, and that's wrong, with potentially serious long term consequences for all of us.
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Thanks for taking the time to explain it.
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If this is a partnership program and the webmaster is not given a taste of the cross sale, I have to say I agree a little. But not much..
To run a PPS program, the expenses are huge. Pre-checked cross sales are mostly used to help finance a PPS program so webmasters can get paid much more than their traffic is really worth. Even if it is a partnership program doing this and you don't get a taste, if they are also running a PPS program, again....it is used to finance the huge expense of paying for PPS. I see absolutely nothing wrong with this practice. |
So deceptively banging the surfers credit card for $80 or more when he thinks he's buying a $1 trial is just business?
Bullshit! If that's what's necessary to run a PPS program then the payouts are too high, and retention isn't what it should be. |
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Crap like Zango is deceptive. This is nothing. |
Pre-checked cross sales are a risk management game.
They are also figured into pps payouts. Like Jim said, they are often being paid less than their traffic is actually worth. I hear a lot of affiliates complaining about things like pre-checked cross sales, and they threaten to pull traffic, etc. but they almost never do...why? because they want the higher payout. |
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Take off your webmaster hat for just a minute and try to think like a porn surfer with a stiff dick. It would not be difficult to think the page ended below the logos. While all the info may technically be there on the page (otherwise it would be fraud and subject to legal action) it's pretty damn obvious to most that the sponsors are trying to slide it by unnoticed. If they weren't it would be above the submit button where it could not be missed. Abusing the surfer financially so that he never buys porn online again is BAD business. |
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What's the old saying? Ignorance is no excuse?
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Try to justify the practice any way you want, but tricking the surfer is wrong. |
Well here's my take.
Pre-checked is ok if it's not hidden from view, and I know there is a lot of that going on now. Toby, if you're going to ban all programs that have pre-checked cross sales on their join forms, you're going to run out of people to promote in short order. Times are not just tough for affiliates, they are tough and competitive for program owners as well. I don't agree with any sort of shady business practices within the adult industry, but pre-checked cross sales in the buyer's face is ok in my opinion. |
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Toby - be honest :) Did you know that, when posting:
You have the option to not show your sig? You can turn off smileys? You can attach a file? You can rate a thread? You can choose to subscribe to a thread? All these "Additional Options" are located below the "Submit Reply" button when you reply to a thread :) |
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A few years back Ibill and a few AVS had this practice of doing the same thing. If I recall correctly they made the text with the pre-checks far smaller to make sure no one would have a chance of reading them. It's certainly a very questionable way of making money imho. I would never promote a sponsor if I knew they were playing such tricky games. |
I don't really have much to offer here except that I am in agreement with Toby. Having the pre-checks below the submit button and/or below the fold is deceptive. The entire purpose of asterisks and fine print is for the purpose of deception, just like their placement on the page AND the fact that they are PRE-CHECKED in the first place. There's plenty of room for the true costs to be right there with the pre-checks and there's plenty of space for additional offers at the top of the form instead of below the submit button.
Professional marketers study advertising statistics. They know that HUGE amounts of surfers do not scroll below the fold for further information (only 10% did earlier in this decade) or read fine print. Sure, we webmasters realize how dangerous it is to place trust in sponsor programs, but a horny surfer doesn't know what we know, nor is he or she in their correct state of mind, at least not if we did our job correctly. ;) Is it the surfers fault for being lazy or ignorant? Perhaps, but that doesn't make it ethical for a program to take advantage of that ignorance. Ok, I have to go to my telemarketing job now and see if I can sell some supplemental life insurance to senior citizens who aren't eligible for the benefits, but at least they can afford it. |thumb |
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Hey - I wanna put the "Enter" link above the LL recip table on all my Free Sites and make sure the table starts at say the 800th pixel from the top. Of course, all my adds will be within the first 768 pixels. |couch|
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BTW - I completely understand what everyone is saying, I just don't think it's that big of a deal. Consoles, on the other hand, pop regardless of any boxes being checked & that annoys the living shit out of me. The world of advertising & marketing lives off stupid people. If it's on sale 2 for $5, you'll buy 2 even if you only need 1, which costs $2.50. I do this EVERY time I go to the grocery store. Why? Because I'm a dummy. |
I only wish we could have cancellation policies like AOL has ;-)
In all fairness, affiliates can choose who they promote. If they choose to not promote us because of pre-checked cross sales, I'll wish them well and tell them to go ahead and promote another sponsors. Those that love the checks they receive from us and the size of them as well as everything we offer are more than welcome to keep continuing to send us traffic. Everyone has the right to decide who they will conduct business and who they will conduct business with. No one should let people on a message board dictate to them how they should run their business. They need to decide for themselves and even though Toby and I probably disagree, at least he's willing to state publicly his intentions to pull links and really, let's see if he does. I would never tell anyone how to conduct business nor should anyone listen to me in such regards (unless they want to send to us and earn big checks ;-)). |
I tell people how to conduct their business all the time & everyone loves me! |couch|
Banning a sponsor is BIG, regardless of how big your site is. I've only done it twice: Epic Cash & Ultra Cash - and I think everyone can agree that I had VERY valid reasons for each. I completely understand what Toby's doing. I sometimes wish there was an option to turn it off & take a lower payout like programs do with consoles. But, this is a BIG part of the PPS business model & I'm a PPS kinda guy |thumb |
Toby - before I forget, great topic & I love the anger.
It's also perfect timing for a long board discussion seeing as it's Monday. If this thread started on a Friday, no one would remember it Monday morning :) |
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Brazzers and AFF were already on my banned sponsor list for other unsundry activities, and I regularly decline submits promoting those sponsors. As I noted in a reply to this same topic on another board, I don't go on the war path often, but when I do I neither fight fair nor take any prisoners. |
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I understand what he's doing as well and truly do wish him well...I don't begrudge anyone conducting business the way they want. I also admire the fact he's arguing his point without resorting to name calling or anything like that. We could use more of that in this industry. |
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I just showed a join page to my 22 year old son. I asked him if he were buying how he would go about it.
He looked at the sign up page that had one pre-checked box and one unchecked box. He looked the page over for a minute. “I thought you wouldn’t have to buy porn”? he said |loony| “Would you please throw me a bone here and pretend your buying it” I said He grabbed the mouse and unchecked the pre-checked box and checked the one that had been unchecked (it was less expensive) “I would probably get this one but not both” I asked him if he thought the pre-checked box was deceptive “No I can see it right there . . . but if it were unchecked I probably wouldn’t have noticed either of them” Let me add he was not coached and the boxes were in full view without scrolling at all. My take! There is a line between “suggestive selling” and “sneaky selling” |
From a similar discussion on another board. Reposted with the authors permission.
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Epic Cash. Shit, I can type Epic Cash. Wasn't there a time when I couldn't type Epic Cash? I would just get **** **** or ********? Okay, I know I am bringing nothing to the thread here but I just wanted to say it.
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