Are Tube Sites Gonna Die...Soon?
 

I'm probably the least savy wm here when it comes to tube sites. The little that I know about them is:

1) Most of the content is stolen from the paysites, not submitted by surfers
2) Tube sites make their $$$ from promoting AFF, Fling, and Live Chat..and the dating sites make their $$$ by scamming with Cross Sales (which MC has just basically killed, and hopefully VISA will follow suit).

I have some questions that some of you may know the answer to and be willing to share:

1) With AFF desperately trying to do an IPO (kinda hard for any company with the recession and I'd imagine exponentially harder for a failing adult site) and losing the ability Cross Sell, hence losing funds, and the ability to pay the tube sites...does this spell the end of tube sites?
2) How did the tube sites get such massive backlinks...the ones that I've seen at the top of Google had 300k+ backlinks. Who's trading with these fuckers? Are they scamming Google and the other engines that rely on backlinks as part of their ranking protocols, by artificially increasing their backlinks? If so, how?

CJS

They're not going anywhere. Some one will always popup to buy their traffic.

-N

Agreed, but what I do think is going to change is the price they'll be able to get for that traffic. Profit margins are going to shrink. That will drive some of them out of business and force others to come up with additional ways to monetize the traffic. Take a look at what PornHub is now doing for a prime example. I see some serious litigation in their future.

Hi Toby...what is pornhub doing that you're referring to?

1) Although it may be wishful thinking to believe that the illegal tubes will disappear, I think tube sites (streaming video), both legal & illegal are here to stay.
2) Backlinks are most likely natural. People have long linked to content that they like without expectations of reciprocal links. These links come from people who are either part of the pirating problem, people who are ignorant of pirated content or people who just don't give a shit.

They've created a $1 Premium membership that allows download of the video instead of just watching them stream online. It also allows viewing of high quality streaming video that isn't available for free.

When they move from being a free site with stolen content that sells ads to charging for access to that stolen content it opens a whole new can of legal issues. We'll see if anyone goes after them.

What these content owners need to start doing, is include Google when they issue DMCA notices. Get the listing removed from the SERPs, or even get the domains blacklisted with enough complaints.

I saw that and wasn't sure if this was something new...I didn't see any other tube sites doing it.

That sounds like a job for Greenie or someone else that has the ear, or other body parts for that matter |whisper|, of some of the content owners. If folks start suggesting that to the pay-site operators/content owners maybe they'll do just that.

CJS

Jay Quinlan suggested banding together to do that over at the zoo, but got screamed down by the prechecked cross sales haters.

Nobody else that I know of has stepped up to try to spearhead a project to get the various sponsors and content producers united in a concerted continous IP attack.

The problem is, the tubes are getting the traffic with the 'half-hour videos of stolen content' biz model. So "people" are siding with the tibes and their traffic.

Well todays topic at On The Bench is Tube sites what ya gonna do! http://www.greenguysboard.com/board/...ad.php?t=50792 come on it at 3pm EST and join in :)

As long as bandwidth remains cheap, they will always exist.

Hell, if in 1997 bandwidth cost what it does today, picposts would have become tube sites by 1998.

Pornhub is charging for a membership now? Wow. Doesn't Brazzers own that site? Any many other tube sites...

Brazzers claim they don't own them, but the WHOIS data tells a different story. At the very least there's a very tight affiliatation with the actual owners.

The question becomes, which other big sponsor whose stolen content is all over those sites has big enough cajones to take them to court.

Toby how do you know for sure that the content is stolen?

You're serious? You're not just asking to be asking?

If you were a content owner would you allow full scenes from your videos to be available for free on tube sites?

I've also read statements from various content owners confirming that fact.

A post about running tube sites with free bandwidth at the zoo.|club|

Tube sites operation revealed
http://www.gfy.com/showthread.php?t=878700

Also the new 2257 regs indicated that the DOJ may be going after the tube site uploaders. They aren't going to want to leave a massive door like that open. Wonder how many of them uploading stolen content have 2257 docs.|cry|

I wouldn't count on the DOJ to do anything about the tubes anytime this decade.

Folks have talked about tubes and their massive backlinks, the cost of bandwidth, and the illegal content. Here's what I've gathered from doing a bit of research since I started this thread:

Although Google claims to want to go after folks that buy back links for pr and placement I don't think that they really do that. I don't think that reporting anyone for buying links is a good thing. SEO is SEO, if someone finds a way to rise in the rankings, good for them. I do find it odd that Google doesn't look at a site with 300,000 to over 1,500,000 backlinks and not wonder how they got all of the one way links pointing in. Of course, if those links come from surfers posting links to their favorite porn...good for the website, that's what it's all about. However, it seems that it'd be quite easy for Google to determine whether the incoming links were from posts or from other websites that are selling links. I'd imagine that in the not to distant future the sites that sell backlinks will get targeted by Google and lose all of their pr and then the sites that they link to will follow suite. I've seen Google knock SEO tactics like this out, in one fell swoop, on more than one occasion in my 12 years in this business.

IMHO the immediate dilemma for tube sites is more along the lines of converting their traffic into more money than it costs for the bandwidth.

If their major financier, Adult Friend Finder, is unable to pay the tubes as they used to for ads, and MasterCard regulations prohibit folks that advertise on the tube sites (remember the normal advertiser on adult sites is the pay sites but they can't really advertise on the tube sites because the tubes are basically giving away pay site content for free...hence the pay sites don't have much to offer a surfer to join up) from stealing from the surfers that sign up (that's basically what they were doing with the check boxes), then the $$$ coming into the tubes becomes much less. If this happens, and their bandwidth fees stay the same, they could not be able to pay for bandwidth and be forced to shut their sites down.

I agree with that assessment, with the exception of that last statement.

A few may shut down but I most will make some changes to alternate income streams while reducing bandwidth cost.

Why would they die soon? they get tons of users

It's the stolen content and the IP issues that are their achilles heel.

As long as the government accepts them, it's just the stolen content and "user contributed" stolen content that can be addressed.

We adult webmasters have as big an interest in intellectual property (IP) control as all the other creatives producers around the globe.

So the questions we should be asking are questions like, "If I contract to get content made, and it gets on the tubes, will I be paid for it's use?".

And as small webmasters, we should be thinking about how to benefit from the tube model - which looks tough to do so far.

nekrom, right you are. remember the phrase om Mr. Mark Twain who said that rumours about mu death are strongly dramatized =))) they will have to cut costs and lok for othler ways of traffic moneytizinlg but it is not going to cause their death of course =)

Well this decade is almost over, and their comments seem to indicate that they are eyeing the social sites.

Plus, the likelyhood of getting convictions there are almost 100% compared to going after legit WMs.

There are a couple things that bother me about porn being on the tube sites. For one, most are not behind a warning of any kind. Yeah, I know, those warnings really don't do much except if you land in court or are dealing with attorney types. If your visitors bypass the clear warning page and admit they are of legal age by clicking enter, you may be saving your own neck. Where's the 2257 information we all have to provide? Why should a tube site be any different from a free site builder? Just like with us, the site owners need to be held responsible for the clips submitted. If they are not willing to do it, they need to re-examine why they are around.

I know a lot of people complain about the various paysites and sponsors putting up clips. I don't have a problem with it as long as they are giving away the same quality and length clips they are letting use in galleries or for free site building. Why would they want to shoot themselves in the foot by putting great quality stuff up on a free tube site? If Joe Schmo Surfer can get his jollies off for free at Red Tube, he isn't going to visit ANY paysites at all. However, if he only gets shorter low-res clips or only gets the foreplay, then a tube site is doing nothing more than any other free site.

The average surfer on these sites doesn't care about quality, and certainly isn't going to pay for any kind of subscription. Do I really want them on my sites? Nope. I want them to visit me when they want a better grade of porn and are willing to pay for it. They are not my target audience, get it? The tube sites, legal or otherwise have as much impact on me as a TGP or MGP. It's a fad that will run its course and die out eventually.

I'd just like to mention 'legal' tube sites are fine, the ones that have 10-30 sec clips from sponsor's movie FHGs, or even pre-approved 1-2 min FLV clips from the sponsor. Yes even sites that purchase even longer movie clips to list. The 'illegal' ones allow any size movie to be uploaded without any copyright checking. You Tube used to be like that, when you could find full length episodes of TV clips, etc. Then I think Google bought them and they proactively cracked down on copyrighted video uploads.

Do y'all remember way way back to when the net was all nice and shiny and new, and everyone seemed to know a place where you could get stolen porn pics for free? Did they hurt paysite sales? Did they hurt free site builders? And the same thing happened with Usenet. Oh, the stuff we could get back then! Tons and tons of free stuff -- small, grainy pictures. 9 out of a series of 10 with always the best one missing or broken. The first 3/4 of a story with the great fuck scenes missing.

When paysites came along, didn't a lot of the BBS users and Usenet groupies move over to them? I sure knew a lot who did. They had their favorites all bookmarked and we would swap links (and sometimes passwords). Wow, then we had movies in different formats.

File sharing is blamed for a lot of the demise in the music industry, but, stop and think here. A true fan is still going to BUY the CD even when they can get it for free because the information is there, or they collect that artist, or any other goofy reason you can think of. If the product is quality, the people will pay for it. Yes, I still buy CDs and DVDs because I do collect certain ones. I ignore the rest. If I want just one song, I can pay for that download.

The same is going to hold true in this industry. The people who adore the free clips are not the same ones who want to drool over that monster picture you posted. We do want someone (not us because we have bills to pay) to host some of the clips to show the freeloaders what they are missing, and we do want to be teasing them with tantalizing images from great sponsors.

We are smart people - we can do this. Tube Schmoobe - just another flash in the pan. Will it outlast the 8 track tape? Oh, or maybe Betamax??

Legal tube sites will never get enough inbound links to compete.

If you want a big tube site you need to make it illegal as possible, keep it that way for 6 months to a year, then switch to legal and say how sorry you are that it was illegal before.

you'll then be running a legal tube site with a shitload of inbound links.
People will quickly forget that you were a scumbag for a while, especially if you send them traffic.

I've seen so many people role over for money/traffic it makes me sick.

Yes Toby is right, that is free advertising, for those who knows how to use that to achieve their purposes and use this type of marketing for them.

Huh? That's not what I was saying at all.

tube sites are definitely here to stay, surfer demand is too high

Anyone who thinks tube "porn" sites will be gone anytime soon is out of their mind, whether it's legal or not. Countries like Sweden host ThePirateBay (among others) and don't give a shit about organisations like the RIAA & MPA why should they even care about the puny porn companies? As long as their is DMCA tube sites will never be shut down (in the USA).

And even if the loophole in the DMCA is ever closed down all you will see is the mass exodus of these sites to countries like Sweden, Russian etc. Really there is no stopping this now, either adapt or fail (yes it sucks, but if you were around when people first started building TGPs this was exactly the same they were saying then)... the reason all these tube sites are taking top rankings is not due to the massive amount of links it is due to the massive amounts of traffic that is coming to these sites.

Google now factors in alot more than just links in it's system, infact it has been proven many times that google factors in usage data as well as links.

Like it or hate it, there is no closing down these tube sites. If you close down one another will take it's place probably bigger, wider and with more hunger...the only way to control this is at the source....CONTENT! If paysite owners do not start protecting their content in proper ways this whole industry will fall flat on it's knees.

simple as. It's a dog eat dog world out there and no one takes any prisoners, for one Iam relishing the chance of a new beggining. Tube submitters will become the new gallery submitters & video editors will be in high demand to ensure maximum promotion minimum pleasure..... and this is how it should be.

You sir are a twit.

1) On most of the larger tube sites most of the content is "nowadays bought DVD content" from producers, yes they still contain alot of illegal videos but they harbor under the safe haven of DMCA (which is 100% legal!), until rights holder tells them to take them down they are entitled to keep them on their site. THAT IS THE LAW!

2) You would be surprised how much traffic & sales a tube site can send from one full length video, it is alot more than 99.9% of TGP,MGP or LinkLists can hope to send in a single day. As well as the amount of trafic which gets your "brand" out there. You would be surprised how many "trusted" companies are working with these sites.

3) AFF don't deperately need an IPO, if you even knew how stock markets works you would realise AFF is not in trouble, infact it is Penthouse who owe the debt to the previous owners, worst comes to worse the previous owners pursue the debts and take control of AFF + Penthouse (wow !)

4) Viral marketing is the key, they give people the tools to simply embed their videos onto other sites, which means tons of other "webmasters" promote their brand. This plus the massive amounts of traffic + easy access content make it very easy to grow way faster than any TGP/MGP/Paysite/Linklist could ever do.

also anyone who believes tubes will go bankrupt via hosting costs are just crazy, when you run that amount of bandwidth through a host the discounts are MASSIVE, simply because the amount of extra bandwidth you run through the system allows the host to barter for better prices.

simple, they are here to stay.... if the MPAA & RIAA cannot get rid of sites like surfthechannel, how do you expect porn companies to get rid of sites like redtube, porntube, keez, pornhub etc etc..... It is never going to happen...

Hmm, you're here with 2 posts calling Captain Sparrow a twit.

If everything you say is true (any references behind what you assert?), I wouldn't be saying it in such a cocky manner. If Pirate Bay is the future, we might as well start flipping burgers now.

I think this is the one thing people need to stop and think about. If you want everything for free, who's gonna bother to make it for you? Where's the incentive to keep busting your butt if people just rip it off?

Yup, great way to start off. |banghead|

There's at least one item in his second post that is blatanty incorrect. All the other unsubstantiated "facts" are also questionable.

sogetthis, I have a question for you. You said:

Can you show us some examples of these tube sites that you refer to that are promoting paysites (I'm assuming that's what you mean by "trusted" companies), and doing a good job of it?

Not sure I should reply as many seem very anti-tube but hey.

The notions that tube site traffic is only made up of freeloaders and that surfers never signup from tube sites is absolute hogwash. Though if you have something wrong with your brain and go putting 30 min full clips on your tube site and then wonder why people arent paying for your DVD sponsor memberships .. of course you really need to wake up.

I run a rather large tube site and take great pains to ensure we dont have 20 min clips etc uploaded, and I know for a fact that not only does my tube make me money, it also makes the webmasters who submit videos money.

The very nature of surfing is changing with this revolution of youtube style sites and media on demand. Surfing habits and the way people surf is changing, and the way we market to surfers has to change with it. I have had to change significantly because if I was still doing what I was doing in 2004 to make money I would already have died out. You adapt or you die.

Hey LB, good comments. Can you explain how surfers submit legal clips to legal tubes? I would like to get into that but I don't know where/how to submit. Are WMs submitting short sponsor clips (30sec - 2min) or are they buying their own clips to submit?

On my tube site we actually only list 20-40 new videos a day and all are reviewed. I also supply a spot for a hard affiliate link and tend not to list videos that aren't webmaster uploads obviously using legit sponsor content. Have a list of sponsors and sites I know don't want their content on the tubes so I don't approve them, and have a lot of sponsors happy to upload their stuff so generally its not much work.

My suggestion to you is to stick to 1-2 min clips, check with your sponsor first before you upload them (most sponsors are fine with tube submits but some do have a few rules you should hear from them first).

Its not going to be long before tube sites like mine go partner account submit only though. Just like with tgps and linklists you get idiots who submit illegal or obviously stolen stuff without a care. As for ratios from my experience your content sells ... and you could experience anything from 1:20 to 1:1000 depending on the tube and the content.

Unfortunately the number of tubes taking webmaster uploads are dwindling.

Thanks LB...I'm glad that you did reply to this post.

LB...would you care to share the url of your tube site?

Not sure the current board policies re spamming so threw you a pm mate. :)

Thanks LB...I sent you a PM as well.