Skipping PR On Export?

[LowryBigwood]

I know it's possible to skip lower pr and get a higher pr to start with, but has anyone ever had or heard of someone skipping pr5 and going straight to pr6? Or even skip pr4 and go straight pr5?

Would be interesting to know if that's possible.

[Greenguy]

A couple years ago when I used to keep track of that kind of stuff, I remember domains going from 0 to 3 and 1 to 3 or 4, so it's not like they bump you up 1 with each update - if they like the domain, you can go up 2 or 3.

I've also seen them drop more than 1

[Mr Exotic]

What's the point in obsessing over google PR?

But to answer your question, yes I have seen some of my domains go from a 0 to a 2 and a 1 to a 3. I have even have had a handful of my free sites go from a 0 to a 4.

[LowryBigwood]

Originally Posted by Mr Exotic

What's the point in obsessing over google PR?

But to answer your question, yes I have seen some of my domains go from a 0 to a 2 and a 1 to a 3. I have even have had a handful of my free sites go from a 0 to a 4.

1. The point is higher search engine rankings.

2. I have also seen 0-4 but never 0-5 or 3-5 or 4-6.

[Linkster]

PR has nothing whatsoever to do with your SE rankings - which is why when people ask to trade based on PR we usually tell them to stuff it

[SheepGuy]

Mine jumped from 3-6. I thought it was a fluke and wouldn't last, but somehow it has. I have no real idea why it jumped.

[Halfdeck]

PR has nothing whatsoever to do with your SE rankings

I wish it was that simple.

[LowryBigwood]

Originally Posted by Linkster

PR has nothing whatsoever to do with your SE rankings - which is why when people ask to trade based on PR we usually tell them to stuff it

So, you are telling me that Google has been telling lies all this time?

I don't know why they would make something like that up, maybe you could fill me in on that? I borrowed the text below from Google themselves.

"Important, high-quality sites receive a higher PageRank, which Google remembers each time it conducts a search. Of course, important pages mean nothing to you if they don't match your query. So, Google combines PageRank with sophisticated text-matching techniques to find pages that are both important and relevant to your search. Google goes far beyond the number of times a term appears on a page and examines all aspects of the page's content (and the content of the pages linking to it) to determine if it's a good match for your query."

text source

Also, just to be clear on my part, I am not saying that it's all about PR, but I do believe very strongly that it plays a very big role.

I respect your opinion, but I do not agree with it regarding this.

[LowryBigwood]

Originally Posted by SheepGuy

Mine jumped from 3-6. I thought it was a fluke and wouldn't last, but somehow it has. I have no real idea why it jumped.

Very cool SG. Thanks, now I know it's possible. I'd be happy with 4-6, how'd you pull that off?

[SheepGuy]

Originally Posted by LowryBigwood

Very cool SG. Thanks, now I know it's possible. I'd be happy with 4-6, how'd you pull that off?

LOL! If I had a clue I'd do it on all of my domains The only theory I can come up with is that it has to do with inbound one-way links from SSI's on AVS Sites, which have inbound one-way links from high PR AVS link lists. If that's true though, you should see a boost since you are on my SSI's

The only other thing is that my site is updated every day, around midnight, after a ritual sacrifice, while listening to devil music.
But everyone does that

[LowryBigwood]

Originally Posted by SheepGuy

LOL! If I had a clue I'd do it on all of my domains The only theory I can come up with is that it has to do with inbound one-way links from SSI's on AVS Sites, which have inbound one-way links from high PR AVS link lists. If that's true though, you should see a boost since you are on my SSI's

I am anxiously awaiting the next export even though it won't be the actual current PR, but hey... it looks cool.

Originally Posted by SheepGuy

The only other thing is that my site is updated every day, around midnight, after a ritual sacrifice, while listening to devil music. But everyone does that

Hmm.. maybe that's the secret!

[oldbrad]

I thought pr was relevant to serps, but only in a small way along with hundreds of other factors.

[Linkster]

Brad - et al - Ill repeat myself - PR (that you have access to by use of toolbars programs sites etc) means nothing in the Serps

Now if you want to talk about the real Page Rank that Google assigns to pages (note the differentiation between sites and pages) it certainly has some effect - although as a small part of the algorithms many inputs
The point Im trying to make is that trading links or accepting/declining the same based on what Google allows you to see is about the most useless endeavor you could ever take - sure 5 years ago it worked when Google still allowed you to see the actual page rank of a page through their directory listings from Dmoz, but other than that its disappeared


Fortunately I can back it up too

[LowryBigwood]

Originally Posted by Linkster

Now if you want to talk about the real Page Rank that Google assigns to pages (note the differentiation between sites and pages) it certainly has some effect - although as a small part of the algorithms many inputs
The point Im trying to make is that trading links or accepting/declining the same based on what Google allows you to see is about the most useless endeavor you could ever take - sure 5 years ago it worked when Google still allowed you to see the actual page rank of a page through their directory listings from Dmoz, but other than that its disappeared


Fortunately I can back it up too

It doesn't have to be actual or a real-time current display of your PR to be useful in judging a sites importance in Googles eyes. Does it?

If the toolbar shows me a site with a pagerank 2 and another one with a pagerank of 6, it's easy for me to make a good guess at what site is viewed as more important to Google. Are you saying that the above example would be completely useless?

If so, I'd like to see what you're talking about backing up as I'm interested in this topic.

[DangerDave]

Originally Posted by Linkster

Brad - et al - Ill repeat myself - PR (that you have access to by use of toolbars programs sites etc) means nothing in the Serps

Now if you want to talk about the real Page Rank that Google assigns to pages (note the differentiation between sites and pages) it certainly has some effect - although as a small part of the algorithms many inputs
The point Im trying to make is that trading links or accepting/declining the same based on what Google allows you to see is about the most useless endeavor you could ever take - sure 5 years ago it worked when Google still allowed you to see the actual page rank of a page through their directory listings from Dmoz, but other than that its disappeared


Fortunately I can back it up too

WHAT HE SAID!!


This about the 10th PR thread this week... and in this forum many of us older heads have been trying to tell you same thing for YEARS now..

Do not waste your time chasing PR... there are much more worthwhile things you could be doing...

* rel=nofollow Thread - http://www.greenguysboard.com/board/...ad.php?t=39218
What a monstrous waste of time... you could actually be out there doing something constructive.. rather than applying an inappropriate tag to links where it is most likely ignored!

* Another rel=nofollow Thread - http://www.greenguysboard.com/board/...light=nofollow
REPEAT same message!


Linkster and I , and Bill and.... and... and.. have been telling you all to ignore that little green bar for years now...

When is anyone going to listen?

DD

[Halfdeck]

PR (that you have access to by use of toolbars programs sites etc) means nothing in the Serps

I wasnt talking about the Toolbar PR to me is a short for Public Relations or Puerto Rico.

If the toolbar shows me a site with a pagerank 2

There is no such thing as a PageRank 2. PageRank is a percentage, a number that represents the chance some dude accidentally winds up on your url by randomly clicking on links - a number between 0 ~ 100%. From that POV, assuming Google hasn't messed alot with their original algo, the sum of all webpages' PageRanks is one - where 1 = 100%.

with ~5,810,000,000 pages on the Interweb, average PageRank of a webpage is miniscle.

Imagine a scale. When a Googler gets on it, it reads 152.234 lb. When you get on it, it reads 4. Two months later, you gain 47 lb - it still reads 4. The scale reflects your weight; but lack of granularity and delay is enough to limit the accuracy of what you see.

I wouldn't say the number is meaningless, but there are better indicators.

Fortunately I can back it up too

That would be interesting

PageRank is flawed:

1. "Rich gets Richer" syndrome - domains that rank high gains organic links much quicker than new domains that are invisible.
2. PageRank is query-independent. Using only the PageRank algo to rank pages, a high PageRank page that's irrelevant to a query can outrank a less important page that's more relevant to the query. To deal with that shortcomming, people thought up stuff like Hilltop, CLEVER, HITS, and Topical PageRank.
3. Artificial links. Google's artificial detection algo is improving but its still far from perfect. Thus the advice to rel=nofollow; They wouldn't ask people to use that if their algos didn't need hand-holding.
4. Google's TrustRank algo can't tell between a low PageRank quality page and low PageRank spam. One possible reason you might see a new site outranked by a lot of garbage.

PageRank is built on the assumption that authoritative pages link to other authoritative pages. For example, LOR links to tommy's bookmarks, DangerDave, Linkforsex, Penisbot, etc, while a smaller LL tend to trade links with less authoritative sites. Authoritative sites tend to be very picky about who they link to; Google relies on that tendency to find "quality" websites.

Relevance is also important, but sometimes, WHO is saying something makes or breaks a message.

Google's crawl frequency and depth also depends on PageRank. Lack of PageRank means more pages in the supplemental index, and since IBLs from supplemental pages are weaker, having a large number of pages turn supplemental due to low PageRanks can cripple a site's ranking.

If you own blogs, you'll notice as you publish more posts, a page that used to rank high starts to lose position. On-page optimization hasn't changed. The page's authority score hasn't changed. Anchor texts on IBLs haven't changed. The only thing that's changing is less internal links pointing to the blog post (e.g. page rolls off the front page, no longer displayed as "recent post", etc).

[Maj. Stress]

Originally Posted by Halfdeck

Relevance is also important

BINGO, if you have relevant ibl's building your pr, then pr is a bigger factor. If you dont pr is just another number. And as pointed out, the toolbar pr is pretty much useless. It's better to look at how a site is structured before doing a link trade than looking at pr.

[LowryBigwood]

Originally Posted by DangerDave

WHAT HE SAID!!

This about the 10th PR thread this week... and in this forum many of us older heads have been trying to tell you same thing for YEARS now..

Do not waste your time chasing PR... there are much more worthwhile things you could be doing...

* rel=nofollow Thread - http://www.greenguysboard.com/board/...ad.php?t=39218
What a monstrous waste of time... you could actually be out there doing something constructive.. rather than applying an inappropriate tag to links where it is most likely ignored!

* Another rel=nofollow Thread - http://www.greenguysboard.com/board/...light=nofollow
REPEAT same message!


Linkster and I , and Bill and.... and... and.. have been telling you all to ignore that little green bar for years now...

When is anyone going to listen?

DD

Nothing personal... but just because you or someone else tells me something doesn't mean I'm not going to investigate it further and come to my own conclusions. And discussing it out in the forum is a way for me to do that. Sorry you don't like the topic.

And yeah I started one of those threads above? Was it not a legit question?

Halfdeck - Nice post, thanks.

[Linkster]

I guess the easiest way to do this is to break down some myths and unfortunately the leading "SEO" experts out there disagree with me, but then they have just come along in the last 3 or so years and are blinded by what the Google public relations people have been putting out.

First - PR does not equal page rank - its just a little logarithmic representation created digitally for surfers because they like cool gadgets on a scale from 1-10 - the base of the log is somewhere estimated around 6-7

This scale is applied to all PAGES on the net that Google knows about - note this is NOT SITES - and is a representation of the closeness of a page to Googles index page (the #1 page at the top rating of 10)
There are many factors that go into this display and anyone that tells you they have broken the code and have figured out how to display a real time version of this is lying - and has no idea as this is one of many closely guarded secrets

The one thing known about this little display for sure is that you can manipulate it to show whatever you want - Im not going to demonstrate how to do it - as there are enough code idiots running around that already know how and sucker people into link trades using this "feature"

Conclusion - (at least mine and some others that have dealt with this for many years) - if you base a business model or even your little hobby on a little green bar - you deserve to fail

Page Rank - Google has dealt with this issue many times in their published college papers - this is what is created from their algorithm based on hundreds of factors from major ones like "Votes" to little things like html compliance and on and on
You can take guesses for years on what is included in this algo - and believe me there are many who have been trying for their entire careers - and still not know all the factors.
Again - this is something applied at the PAGE level - not the SITE

This Page Rank is the secret stuff that determines where you "rank" in the search results - again it has nothing to do with the PR listed above

Now to confuse the issue a little - there is a third element - called algo filters - these are little things that are applied to a page based on something Google doesnt like - an example would be hidden text - if a page has some hidden text and they detect it (which they do pretty well) - then that filter is applied to that page after the ranking occurs
Some other general type filters that get used - if you have more than two pages from the same domain that would rank for a particular search - then they apply this filter to only show two pages in the top 1000 search results
A good way to see this filter in play is to either go to the end of the results and click on the "display ommitted results" link or you can just add &filter=0 to the end of your URL in the address box of the search results

To generalize here a little - you will run into many people that "think" they know how Google works based on their own experiences or repeating the claims of other "experts" - but I sure wouldnt want to run my business on heresay and unproven theories - if you do - Good Luck

[Greenguy]

Lowry - I was in the same place you are about 3 or 4 years ago. Trust me when I (and people like Linkster & DDave) say that PR has very little importance.

I currently have a page that ranks #1 in Google for a mid-level term that has a PR0. And we've all seen pages that rank higher than pages that have a much higher PR.

PR is sorta like seeing your site on the top of a counter's "top sites" list - it make you feel important, but it doesn't really mean anything.

Trade traffic, not PR. Clicked links from similar sites will make you money - PR will just make you think your cock is bigger

(of course, this is also a "theory" but it's easier to sleep at night if you don't worry about little green bars)

[Linkster]

To give you an idea on how ridiculous some things can get out there with the little green bar - there was at one time a paper written that investigated the little green bars beside site listings in the google directory
Ex page : http://www.google.com/Top/Adult/Comp...Sites/Variety/

Note to the left of each listing is a little green "PR" bar - the paper (which doesnt seem to be available anymore for some reason) - looked at the width of the little image and concluded it was a total of about 40 pixels wide - if you then viewed the source of the page you would find this in each link - img src="/images/pos.gif" width=22, height=4
By taking that width (22) and dividing it by 40 or whatever number he came up with you had what your REAL PR was

Note - this was long before the advent of the google toolbar and was the first attempt at people trying to reverse engineer the scaling factors - and amazingly - this became the SEOs favorite tool for figuring out who to link to/with - now Im sure youre sitting there shaking your head that a ton of people were that stupid to follow that advice???

[Halfdeck]

Now to confuse the issue a little - there is a third element - called algo filters

Hey, let's stay on topic

you will run into many people that "think" they know how Google works based on their own experiences or repeating the claims of other "experts" - but I sure wouldnt want to run my business on heresay and unproven theories

Jeez, anything you disagree with is an "unproven theory" and whatever you agree with is fact, right? BTW what I'm saying is far from mainstream. Most SEO "experts" dismiss PageRank as a non-factor. In fact, a couple months back when I wrote PageRank is the primary factor determining supplemental results, Rand Fishkin (the guy who tried to propose during the last superbowl) told me he thinks what I said is "bogus." A relatively well-known black hatter also agreed with him.

Conclusion - (at least mine and some others that have dealt with this for many years) - if you base a business model or even your little hobby on a little green bar - you deserve to fail

PageRank is not a business model. It's more like gravity. If you have a good site, respected by other authoritative sites, you got a good chance ranking high on Google irregardless of what the toolbar says for a particular page.

TBPR is a rough reflection of a site's visibility. A TBPR 9 site (a site with a TBPR 9 root) is usually a site we've all heard of; there are a ton of TBPR 0 pages no one knows they exist.

By taking that width (22) and dividing it by 40 or whatever number he came up with you had what your REAL PR was

Well, that's just ridiculous

The one thing known about this little display for sure is that you can manipulate it to show whatever you want

Fake TBPR does absolutely nothing for your site, I don't have sympathy toward people who linktrade based solely on TBPR, and the tactic is well-known, so in case you didn't already know:

All you gotta do is redirect a page to a X TBPR page using a header PHP code or htaccess. I've tried both; one method works - I forget which. After PageRank export, you remove the redirect. Then you linktrade with high TBPR pages so that by the next update your TBPR will be "real."

A better indicator of domain strength is freshness of cache dates and the number of pages in the main index (as opposed to pages labeled as supplemental).

I currently have a page that ranks #1 in Google for a mid-level term that has a PR0. And we've all seen pages that rank higher than pages that have a much higher PR.

Yeah, but like Linkster said, what you see in your toolbar isn't PageRank. If the only ranking factor was PageRank, that fact would prove Google doesn't sort results according to PageRank, but I don't think anyone is insisting PageRank is the only ranking factor.

Bottom line: build a valuable site and build traffic to it - bookmarkers, organic links, sales, ranking, and PageRank will follow. There's a reason why Google's spam team leader thinks sites like Link-o-Rama and The Hun are quality porn sites - and the reason isn't high PageRank.

Build crappy niche hub-pages and try to linktrade your way into Google's front page - I think you'll find you just wasted your time.

[LowryBigwood]

Wow!

So much information to take in here. Thank you Greenie, Linkster, and Halfdeck for the replies.

Linkster - There was some confusion on my part, no doubt. But, when I say PR, i am referring to pagerank not really what the little bar shows. I did a LOT of reading yesterday and last night on this topic on various boards and I read about much of the same things you are saying now.

I was aware of how others could redirect their PR and make a site look higher than it really is, but for the most part I'm trading with people that post here on the board and don't think it'll happen to me.

I'm not trying to base my business model off the green toolbar, just trying to learn and improve, that's all.

Those last 2 posts were great, thank you for information.

Greenie - Thanks, yeah I just like the way a high pr toolbar looks. But I do value Linkster's, and even DD's advice, ths the reason I posted the question here.

Halfdeck - "A better indicator of domain strength is freshness of cache dates and the number of pages in the main index (as opposed to pages labeled as supplemental)."

Wouldn't that be determined by pagerank or no?

Thanks for replies also, very informative as usual.

Sorry this is the "10th PR Thread This Week" but it is loaded with a lot of very good info and I would of hated to miss out on this. I'm guessing many others will get a lot of good value out of this thread.

I have a better understanding now, and I thank you all.

[Halfdeck]

Wouldn't that be determined by pagerank or no?

PageRank is one of the major factors. It's not the only factor because, for example, there are algos that address things like high PageRank spam.

The explanation Matt Cutts gave when people complained about pages falling out of the main index last year during the release of Big Daddy is that 1) crawl depth and indexing is dependent on PageRank and 2) the loss of pages in the main index is largely due to devaluation of links that look artificial.