what is the diffrence

[stuveltje]

whats the difference between toolbar pr and live pr? and which pr is the right pr?

[stuveltje]

no answer on this one yet? there are urls which show you google toolbar pr and the live pr .....i realy wanna know what pr is the right one and why showing 2 different prs

[Bill]

Well, Stu, google kinda intentionally 'hides' or delays showing the current pr in it's toolbars, so, with the google toolbar, the pr you see is out of date, by between a few days to maybe 4 months.

I don't know what "live pr" tool you are using, but tools like that attempt to use a mathematical formula that checks the pr of the pages linking to the page you are testing, does a few calculations, and show you an approximation of what the pr of the page would be if google were to update pr that day.

Neither pr, the official pr on the googlebar, and the calculated pr from the "live pr" tool, is necessarily the "real pr", but nobody but the google engineers ever really knows the real pr of a page anyway.

[stuveltje]

ha thanks bill oke i will show you an link which i use for pr checking in several databases, and it confuse me what the right pr is, bad is i use other pr checkers too and all show different pr results and that sucks huge, because i cant figure out what the real pr is. oke this is one of the urls i use:
http://livepr.raketforskning.com/

[stuveltje]

that pr urls is showing my hubs and linksites will show an pr4 in toolbar and an pr5 in live pr, it also shows me an pr5 for my blogs in toolbar and a pr2 or pr3 in live pr, so what the hell i have to pick for real pr, i think i will go for google toolbar

[Bill]

Well Stu, let me put it like this. I've never heard of a single serious SE person who uses any of the "live pr" tools for anything.

It's a gimmick. The only real use I can think of for it would be to try to convince somebody your website has a higher pr than the googlebar shows, so that you can talk them into linking to you, or buying your website for a higher price.

Now, if you have a property you are trying to sell, and you think your buyer can be influenced with a higher "live pr" than the googlebar shows, well, it's your choice.

But there is absolutely no guarantee than the 'official' pr the googlbar shows will match the "live pr" when the next pr update comes.

[Maj. Stress]

Originally Posted by stuveltje

that pr urls is showing my hubs and linksites will show an pr4 in toolbar and an pr5 in live pr, it also shows me an pr5 for my blogs in toolbar and a pr2 or pr3 in live pr, so what the hell i have to pick for real pr, i think i will go for google toolbar

One thing to remember, a pr3 on the google toolbar can be anywhere from pr3 to pr3.9. That could cause some of the confusion if the "live" pr that you are using rounds numbers up and down.

[Halfdeck]

Stu, that's what I was using yesterday (or 2 nights ago?) for checking your domain PRs

Originally Posted by Bill

It's a gimmick. The only real use I can think of for it would be to try to convince somebody your website has a higher pr than the googlebar shows, so that you can talk them into linking to you, or buying your website for a higher price.

That live PR link runs a tool built by one of Jim W's friends and it does a RK lookup on various DC's, including 3 main BD. Jim W suspects that RK might be Google's internal PR. A few will say it's voodoo of course but its interesting nonetheless. Even randish has picked it up, and posted about it on digitalpoint. Personally, I would not call it a gimmick. It is flawed; it doesn't send the site:xxx.com query to Google from what I've read; someone else wrote an ajax code I can run off my desktop, which is what I play with.

[Bill]

By gimmick, I mean it's of marginal practical use.

If you think it's not a gimmick, what use would you put it to?

[Halfdeck]

By gimmick, I mean it's of marginal practical use.

If you think it's not a gimmick, what use would you put it to?

For one thing, I wouldn't use "live PR" as a bargaining chip for linktrades But even if there were no practical uses, as I said it's one piece of the Google puzzle, however small that piece might be, and food for thought when I have a few minutes to kill.

I don't know what "live pr" tool you are using, but tools like that attempt to use a mathematical formula that checks the pr of the pages linking to the page you are testing, does a few calculations, and show you an approximation of what the pr of the page would be if google were to update pr that day.

To go back to your previous post, this particular script (and a few others I've seen) doesn't do any adding from what I understand. It sends a query to Google, then Google answers back with an XML file. The PR displayed on a page as *Live PR* is a number taken from that XML file.

Future PR probably does involve some math, but I have no clue how that works.

[stuveltje]

well i have bin focusing today all day on the live pr and the google toolbar, gues what certain moments of the day the google toolbar indeed showd the same result as the live pr i got for my blogs, so my pr5 blog was an pr3 in toolbar certain moment of the day, a couple of hours later it showed again an pr5 in toolbar and later again an pr3, same for my other blogs, so now i do believe the live toolbar has an purpose

[Bill]

Originally Posted by Halfdeck

To go back to your previous post, this particular script (and a few others I've seen) doesn't do any adding from what I understand. It sends a query to Google, then Google answers back with an XML file. The PR displayed on a page as *Live PR* is a number taken from that XML file.

Future PR probably does involve some math, but I have no clue how that works.

Well, as I'm always the first to say, there are certain types of technical details which I pretty much ignore. So if you say the tool queries datacenters and gets an xml file which it then processes and extracts a number to display as a live pr, I'm happy to stipulate.

I instantly sort everything I study about the SE's into two categories - practical use and no practical use.

Once I've put something into the no practical use pile I tend to flush the details from my memory, and store a synopsis. So, that was my summary.

I still don't see a practical use for it. It's a little amusing that the "real" google pr is so easily available, as a number in an xml file, when google goes to so much trouble to obscure it.

But I don't see a way to convert that into sales, so I'm planning on dumping it back into the no practical use bin.

[Linkster]

First off - I dont know why anyone would want to know what the PR (displayed anywhere!!!) of a page is (note I said page - and not site).
It keeps being bantered around as the bargaining chip for link trades etc and yet it is one of the smallest indicators of where a site will rank as far as Google is concerned. It certainly plays very little into how important Google thinks the site is since it is able to be manipulated so easily.
That said - the facts about PR are - the displayed PR on the toolbar is updated about every 3 months, the PR Google uses for its algorithm is updated almost every day and the best representation of a pages PR is in the Google directory listings - for example: http://www.google.com/Top/Adult/Comp...Sites/Variety/
Note the pages have a little bar to the left of each listing - if you view the source of the page you will find the code used to make those imgs - /images/pos.gif" width=11, height=4 The width goes from 1-40 and it is somewhere around a mathematical logmarithic base 7 number, not linear.
Interesting stuff but it still has so little to do with where a page ranks in the SE results pages, that as Bill said - it might as well go in the "no practical use" bin.

I also have always had a standing rule that says if you contact me for a link/traffic trade - you better not mention PR or I automatically say NO.

[Halfdeck]

First off, the title of this thread is "what's the difference" between live PR and toolbar PR, not "Will bigger PR help me rank higher in Google?", "will I get better linktrades using live PR?", or "Will knowing how live PR works make me any money?"

Bill posted that live PR was calculated by crunching numbers and resulted in a highly speculative PR, and I just said live PR isn't calculated at all by the script.

Anyway, here's one url Google spits out for those interested in stuff that won't make a dime

http://66.249.93.104/search?client=n...linkforsex.com

[Bill]

Well, halfdeck, your summary of how the tool works was better than mine, so I've stored it as my new snippet.

I've ended up deciding I must have stored that original summary from some earlier tool that did use the site: command (or however the tool would have gathered page data), and just never updated my definition for this most recent generation of tools.

Note that I still haven't researched for myself to be certain your explantion is accurate, because again, that kind of technical detail isn't something I concentrate on.

I do still find it interesting that, if true, there is a realtime PR number available from the datacenters, after google went to such trouble to obscure pr. That just strikes me as odd.

[Halfdeck]

Originally Posted by Bill

I do still find it interesting that, if true, there is a realtime PR number available from the datacenters, after google went to such trouble to obscure pr. That just strikes me as odd.

Bill, I'm definitely not making an assertion that live PR is Google's internal PR. Still, If you look at the url I just posted, it has 8bb92c8b3 as one of the query strings which is a security measure to make it difficult for people to access Google's database. Try looking up another domain with that URL and you'll find it won't work.

That hash was cracked long time ago by reverse engineering the Google toolbar from what I heard. I'm not sure the script I used to generate that url is even legal.

[Bill]

So, is the live pr tool doing something google would consider a violation of terms then?

[Halfdeck]

Originally Posted by Bill

So, is the live pr tool doing something google would consider a violation of terms then?

I have no idea. The fact that there are no adsense ads or anything on that page should tell you something though.

[Linkster]

Halfdeck - that link that you posted is checking the stored text file that Google has for that url to get posted in the toolbar PR display - what makes that any different than just using the toolbar other than not putting cookies on ones own computer? That datacenter is one of the standard BD servers.
That xml is how Google transmits the text file to the toolbar and that has been around since 2002 and works as long as you know the checksum for your urls - it shouldnt be a problem using unless you are doing any auto queries.
Its interesting that they still serve the xml as they replaced that with a little text file some time back (a few years ago) to transmit the PR to the toolbar

[Linkster]

Originally Posted by Halfdeck

Still, If you look at the url I just posted, it has 8bb92c8b3 as one of the query strings which is a security measure to make it difficult for people to access Google's database. .

That isnt a security measure - that is the checksum assigned to each url by google - you can get it by looking at the cookie google places on your computer when you use the toolbar

[stuveltje]

mmmmm me reading all,and i am still not sure if i know now the difference between the live pr and the toolbar pr, on the url i show you it was the first time i saw the name Live pr, what i do know there are several pr checkers and that some all can give an different result when you check the pr of an site, also a thing i dont understand.

[Halfdeck]

Originally Posted by Linkster

Halfdeck - that link that you posted is checking the stored text file that Google has for that url to get posted in the toolbar PR display

Linkster, if you look at the url, I ran a site:xyz.com on a BD dc (I can check any DC I want and any query string, instead of site:xyz.com and return anything from 1 to 100 results). The XML returned represents a list of SERP results.

Here's the XML for the search "free porn" on 64.233.179.99 (random DC I chose) that returns the first 100 results.

http://64.233.179.99/search?client=n...&q=free%20porn

The checksum isn't a "security measure" per se (ok, I exaggerated). One reason for Google putting it there is probably to prevent people from using scripts to send loads of automated queries. Yes, there are various ways you can pull up the checksum, including cookies.

[Linkster]

I understand what you are doing with the xml - but what good does it do anybody - the rank in the results is the rank displayed in the toolbar, and certainly doesnt give any more info than just doing the same search and viewing the source of the resulting SERPs - seems kinda like a waste of time???

[stuveltje]

i dont understand any shit of what you all are saying and the worse is i still dont have an good answer what the f... difference is between toolbar pr and live pr.......i will try to find it out myself, one thing i do know, yes some moment of the day the google toolbar shows the live pr result for my blogs or sites.it has to have an reason

[Halfdeck]

Originally Posted by Linkster

the rank in the results is the rank displayed in the toolbar

Linkster, RK and toolbar PR tends to be the same for established domains with stable PR, but take an inside page like

http://www.linkforsex.com/adult-links/group-sex.html

My Google toolbar says PR 3 right now.

http://66.102.9.99/search?client=nav...group-sex.html

RK = 4

RK is not always PR displayed in the toolbar.

Live PRs / toolbar PR across multiple DCs:

http://livepr.raketforskning.com/?u=...group-sex.html

Originally Posted by Linkster

seems kinda like a waste of time???

I never said it isn't