Sales Question

tb · 2005-07-05, 04:55 PM

A while back I posted a message asking when I would start to make sales.
I got a lot of helpful feed back.
Well I still have not had any signups yet.
Here are my stats for one program/one sponsor Pussy Pinata, OC Cash
Raw: 1030
Unique:802
Signups:0
Ratio:0:802
Earned:$0.00

People are clicking through to the sponsor,why no sales?
I do not plan to give up.
I just thought that with that many clicks I would have at least one signup.
In total I have sent 1345 unique clicks to OC with all programs.
Any one have any insight, it would be appreciated. Thanks

Toby · 2005-07-05, 05:21 PM

Way too few click throughs to get a true indication of how your traffic will do with a particular program. I'd wait and re-evalutate after 5K to 10K click-thrus. You might send 2500 clicks without a sale, then have 4 sales out of the next 500 clicks. Overal that's now a ratio of 1:750.

Ramster · 2005-07-05, 05:44 PM

That's not enough traffic to judge. I have a sponsor I'd recommend to anyone that is 0:831 today but yesterday made 3 sales on 1492.

It's a numbers game and the more numbers you have the better off you are. If the stats keep bad in the long haul I'd change the sponsor or promote another niche.

Rocco · 2005-07-06, 07:46 AM

mostly it also depends on what kind of traffic you get and to what paysite/program you're trying to sell it

Halfdeck · 2005-07-06, 07:11 PM

Bad ratios are frustrating, although there are too many factors involved for me to ever understand why one sponsor does 1:50 and another one does 0:6000. I usually don't invest much time on a program unless I can get around 1:200 or better.

Anyway, what I try to do personally is presell a paysite as hard as I can. To do this, I actually dig up as much info as I can about the paysite.

For example, for Pussy Pinata, the $2.97 for 1 day trial (although it looks like they'll charge you more per month if you sign up thru trial) and the 11 other sites you get complete access to with just a trial membership would be something I'd heavily stress. Also, the content is apparently exclusive, so I'd use plenty of pics/videos to demonstrate that fact. Finally, since it's a reality site, I might even go into a few of the specific girls that appeared and write a few juicy text about an episode or two.

Basically, the thing I try for when advertising a paysite is 1) establish trust with my visitors 2) tell them exactly what they're going to get out of spending their dough 3) Dispell any fears about being ripped off, infected with viruses, getting email spam, etc.

Then all you have to do is get the right type of traffic to your sites, and you should start seeing more sales.

Just my 2 cents

sue-fl · 2005-07-06, 11:54 PM

Hmm interesting thread. I was wondering about sales also to a sponsor that seemed really bad. Sent them over 1900 clicks last pay period with one sale..

But I take it this mean I heading in the right direction, as I'm sending more hits to them with each pay period. Right??

Halfdeck get info you posted on selling the site thanks!

But here is where I get confused again. Sponosr content? I have asked this many times to people. Guess I'll ask again. How do link list owners feel about sponsor content? I'm turning it down on my link list unless I know you, as that is all I was getting. I buy all my content as I was told by several LL owners to do so. Am I spending money where I don't need to be?

HELP!

tb · 2005-07-08, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sue-fl

But here is where I get confused again. Sponosr content? I have asked this many times to people. Guess I'll ask again. How do link list owners feel about sponsor content? I'm turning it down on my link list unless I know you, as that is all I was getting. I buy all my content as I was told by several LL owners to do so. Am I spending money where I don't need to be?

HELP!

Thanks for the input everyone, your help is always appreciated.

I found it very interesting. what sue-fi said.

It seems strange to me to buy unrelated content to advertise a sponsor.
Kinda like selling steak but delivering hamburger.
Is that what I should be doing?
Right now I only use sponsor content and have had reasonable success at getting listed.

tb · 2005-07-11, 01:37 PM

spookyx · 2005-07-11, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sue-fl

But here is where I get confused again. Sponosr content? I have asked this many times to people. Guess I'll ask again. How do link list owners feel about sponsor content? I'm turning it down on my link list unless I know you, as that is all I was getting. I buy all my content as I was told by several LL owners to do so. Am I spending money where I don't need to be?

HELP!

not all "sponsor content" is the same, many programs, including lotzadollars will allow trusted webmasters access to the main paysites to use content for sites/galleries. so its not content that is seen very often.

MadMax · 2005-07-11, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spookyx

not all "sponsor content" is the same, many programs, including lotzadollars will allow trusted webmasters access to the main paysites to use content for sites/galleries. so its not content that is seen very often.

That's the hurdle you face just starting out. Send enough sales to be a trusted affiliate and a lot of programs will bend over backwards to help you sell them.

Toby · 2005-07-07, 12:48 AM

I can't speak for Link List owners, but as a TGP owner I don't necessarily reject sponsor content, but if I've seen the same photo set submitted a dozen times already I'm going to reject it. Also, the better the quality of the content, the more times I'm likely to approve it before it crosses the "overused" threshold. With Link Lists that threshold is much smaller since the free sites don't scroll off as quickly.

Toby · 2005-07-14, 01:09 PM

Sue, you're probably ahead of the curve. Many jump in to the business, have no plan, thinking they're gonna get rich, and give up after they find out that you actually have to work to make money.

After a long hiatus I got back into the biz in Oct of '03. So many changes since I'd been gone that had to essentially start from zero. I didn't make enough to even cover my hosting fees for the first six months. I kept pluggin' away, fine tuning here, reading and learning. Finally in April '04 I broke even for the month. Sales continued to increase each month until Sept 04' when things all just seemed to fall into place and sales doubled or more each month through the end of the year. To be honest, I'm not really sure what I did last Fall that made the difference, but I just kept at it, deleting unproductive sponsors, trying new ones, fine tuning my sites, etc.

This has gotten a bit long, but my point is, just keep at it the sales will come.

Toby · 2005-07-14, 02:38 PM

Sue, is that traffic from banners, free sites, or something else? I don't use a set "rule". I just try every method of promotion at my disposal and if none of them convert well, I cut my losses and move on. I try not to get too worried about raw numbers.

Linkster · 2005-07-14, 06:02 PM

One rule that I kinda set for myself a long time ago - and usually try to stick with - is on free sites, unless a sponsor goes out of biz or I figure out something that I really did wrong in the advertising text - I dont go back and touch the sites. I would rather spend that time making a new site for either submitting or just a free site to get listed on my hub and have for a rainy day submit.

I also pretty much from the start always made some sort of filtering hub - in my case it turned into a linklist that became successful - but it didnt start that way - it originally was just a categorized hub that listed all of my free sites, as well as having deeper pages that had FPA's - and that is where I sent all of my traffic instead of directly to the sponsor - that way I could get the surfer either hotter - or directed to a better choice.

When I put up a sponsor banner - it went to my hubs FPA for that sponsor - and had a directory at the bottom - that basically talked to the surfer and tried to figure out what they really wanted - it also gave me the ability to filter by someone really wanting to go to a paysite, someone that would go for a free trial, or someone that wasnt going to buy anything - and in the end I could always trade off that guy for a new surfer or two by sending them to a toplist or other trade where I knew I would get something in return.

Eventually I built in some traps for the non-buying surfers that would wrangle out even more traffic - and started having some flow around my own network of sites that were built the same way - and with the free sites I was building and other pages I kept adding to the site - the SEs picked up on it - and that provided even more flow.

Time to do this was pretty much over 2 years - before seeing a real substantial profit - at which time I was able to finally retire from my day job and do this full time

Then I converted over the hub to a Link list and havent looked back - but still make my own free sites and galleries - and loads of pages just for the search engines - and I believe that if you ask GG, Surfn, Tommy or any of the others that have been around for a long time - they all still spend hours a day making sites and pages - because in the end analysis - Its all about quantity!!!

I bolded that cause I was very hard-headed for the first two years - and wouldnt listen to Tommy and a few other friends - so I kept beating myself around about quality - everything had to be just right - well - I've learned my lesson

Sue as far as those ratios - Ive seen worse - but I would just experiment - build another free site that uses a little different approach - maybe all text or less banners and a different sponsor - you will find that magic match between you and some group of sites that will come back and slap you 6 months later

Last - an old lesson someone once gave me about how to write advertising on a free site:
Think of your free site as the back page ad on a Sunday newspaper - most people "glance" at that automobile ad and if a "special deal" on a car jumps out of the page at you - the ad worked! You just spent longer looking at that ad than the average surfer looks at a free site which is usually around 9 seconds.
Now - how do you get that surfer to look longer - and even more importantly how do you "hook them"
You have to have something that literally jumps out of the page at them - if you have a banner that is the regulation size - they wont see it - surfers eyes tune out that size graphic after the first few days of surfing - so if you use a banner it has to be unusually sized (BTW - this also gets around most of the banner blocking software programs surfers use)
I know - youre thinking - well I just cant write ad copy that well - here's a little suggestion - get a Sunday paper - look at those inserts for the national chains - what jumps out at you? Then get something like a Hustler magazine - read the ad copy on their ads - And I can tell you in most cases - dont ever use the text links that sponsors have

Either 500 people have already used them, or they dont know how to write ads either.
Thats the reason that some people keep repeating the mantra of finding a niche that you are passionate about to sell - they dont know why they keep repeating the same thing over and over - but here is the reason - you will naturally write better ad text if you know the subject and either enjoy or at least fantasize about the niche

Also - don't be real picky about typos - a well-placed typo can attract attention

Getting the theme here - dont just put out a free site that says "you can get access to this site here - click here" when you could say "Nasty midgets the right size for munching pussy standing up"

Seriously - the more you look at how the professional advertising firms write ads - the more you can practice it and the better you will become at it.

Toby · 2005-07-14, 08:57 PM

Nothing in this post of substance, just a suggestion to back up one post and re-read Linkster's post again. There is way too much great information there for all of it to sink in reading it just once.

MrYum · 2005-07-14, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toby

Nothing in this post of substance, just a suggestion to back up one post and re-read Linkster's post again. There is way too much great information there for all of it to sink in reading it just once.

Agreed!

Very well said Linkster, some of the best and most honest advice I've read in a long time

sue-fl · 2005-07-14, 09:59 PM

I agree with Toby, Linkster gave me some get info. that may not all sink in with one read. I copied and pasted it and plan to use it as a guide when making my free sites.

Linkster thanks a million for all the great advice! When I make my free sites I often copy from my sponsors and put it on my site. What you said make so much sense and I never thought of it that way.

I think I see a lot of my problems now. Hell I used to do phone sex years ago. I have no problem making up sex fantasies! I just never thought that would come into play in a freesite. So making up my own dirty text is something I'll will do. And those few words that really jump out at you also.

Thanks so much!! This is the most I've learned since I've started doing this! I know you don't have to take the time to help newbies out. I think it's awsome that you do...

Surfn · 2005-07-15, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sue-fl

I think I see a lot of my problems now. Hell I used to do phone sex years ago. I have no problem making up sex fantasies! I just never thought that would come into play in a freesite. So making up my own dirty text is something I'll will do. And those few words that really jump out at you also.

If you do that I think you will see a pleasant upward spike in your sales

ArtWilliams · 2005-07-15, 07:21 AM

This is the best teaching thread I've seen in a while. Thanks everyone!

sue-fl · 2005-07-15, 03:29 PM

Guess all your great help sent me some luck also...nice sales day for me!!

Surfn · 2005-07-15, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sue-fl

Guess all your great help sent me some luck also...nice sales day for me!!

ponygirl · 2005-07-15, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sue-fl

Guess all your great help sent me some luck also...nice sales day for me!!

it's kinda wierd...but me too
shhhhh...don't jinx it lol

Ponygirl

MrYum · 2005-07-15, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponygirl

it's kinda wierd...but me too
shhhhh...don't jinx it lol

Ponygirl

That's good stuff!

Congrats Sue and Ponygirl

As we say in the biz, lather...rinse...repeat!

pornrex · 2005-07-22, 01:11 PM

What an awesome thread indeed!

I was once told that if you use never before seen sponsor content (first come, first submitted sort of thing) that it was ok and chances are it would be listed.

But after reading what Linkster wrote in a couple of posts here, I see that there are 'better' ways to make it in this business than simply relying on sponsor content and I have certainly learned a number of lessons this month from hosting to freesite building to SEO (still learning this part of webmastering - lol!) to content issues, that's for certain.

Thanks for the help!

JohnnyR · 2005-07-23, 06:06 AM

Linkster... you rock man

. Thanks for that post.

spookyx, great to see you posting here. I'm gonna hit you up on ICQ later if that's ok

2005-07-05, 04:55 PM	#1
tb I'm going to the backseat of my car with the woman I love, and I won't be back for TEN MINUTES Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 80	Sales Question A while back I posted a message asking when I would start to make sales. I got a lot of helpful feed back. Well I still have not had any signups yet. Here are my stats for one program/one sponsor Pussy Pinata, OC Cash Raw: 1030 Unique:802 Signups:0 Ratio:0:802 Earned:$0.00 People are clicking through to the sponsor,why no sales? I do not plan to give up. I just thought that with that many clicks I would have at least one signup. In total I have sent 1345 unique clicks to OC with all programs. Any one have any insight, it would be appreciated. Thanks

2005-07-05, 05:21 PM	#2
Toby Lonewolf Internet Sales Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Houston Posts: 4,826	Way too few click throughs to get a true indication of how your traffic will do with a particular program. I'd wait and re-evalutate after 5K to 10K click-thrus. You might send 2500 clicks without a sale, then have 4 sales out of the next 500 clicks. Overal that's now a ratio of 1:750. __________________ Latex Vixens Babes In Boots Well Heeled Women Dressing For Sex Stocking Vixens

2005-07-05, 05:44 PM	#3
Ramster Life is good Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 11,867	That's not enough traffic to judge. I have a sponsor I'd recommend to anyone that is 0:831 today but yesterday made 3 sales on 1492. It's a numbers game and the more numbers you have the better off you are. If the stats keep bad in the long haul I'd change the sponsor or promote another niche. __________________ Pornstar Legends \| Live Cam Model Shows \| Hungarian Girls Skype: robmurray999

2005-07-06, 07:46 AM	#4
Rocco www . * * . com Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,546	mostly it also depends on what kind of traffic you get and to what paysite/program you're trying to sell it __________________ Sex and Porn Submit your FreeSites here

2005-07-06, 07:11 PM	#5
Halfdeck You can now put whatever you want in this space :) Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: New Haven, CT Posts: 985	Bad ratios are frustrating, although there are too many factors involved for me to ever understand why one sponsor does 1:50 and another one does 0:6000. I usually don't invest much time on a program unless I can get around 1:200 or better. Anyway, what I try to do personally is presell a paysite as hard as I can. To do this, I actually dig up as much info as I can about the paysite. For example, for Pussy Pinata, the $2.97 for 1 day trial (although it looks like they'll charge you more per month if you sign up thru trial) and the 11 other sites you get complete access to with just a trial membership would be something I'd heavily stress. Also, the content is apparently exclusive, so I'd use plenty of pics/videos to demonstrate that fact. Finally, since it's a reality site, I might even go into a few of the specific girls that appeared and write a few juicy text about an episode or two. Basically, the thing I try for when advertising a paysite is 1) establish trust with my visitors 2) tell them exactly what they're going to get out of spending their dough 3) Dispell any fears about being ripped off, infected with viruses, getting email spam, etc. Then all you have to do is get the right type of traffic to your sites, and you should start seeing more sales. Just my 2 cents __________________ Success is going from failure to failure without a loss of enthusiasm.

2005-07-06, 11:54 PM	#6
sue-fl You can now put whatever you want in this space :) Join Date: May 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 2,837	Hmm interesting thread. I was wondering about sales also to a sponsor that seemed really bad. Sent them over 1900 clicks last pay period with one sale.. But I take it this mean I heading in the right direction, as I'm sending more hits to them with each pay period. Right?? Halfdeck get info you posted on selling the site thanks! But here is where I get confused again. Sponosr content? I have asked this many times to people. Guess I'll ask again. How do link list owners feel about sponsor content? I'm turning it down on my link list unless I know you, as that is all I was getting. I buy all my content as I was told by several LL owners to do so. Am I spending money where I don't need to be? HELP!

2005-07-11, 01:37 PM	#8
tb I'm going to the backseat of my car with the woman I love, and I won't be back for TEN MINUTES Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 80	sigh

2005-07-07, 12:48 AM	#11
Toby Lonewolf Internet Sales Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Houston Posts: 4,826	I can't speak for Link List owners, but as a TGP owner I don't necessarily reject sponsor content, but if I've seen the same photo set submitted a dozen times already I'm going to reject it. Also, the better the quality of the content, the more times I'm likely to approve it before it crosses the "overused" threshold. With Link Lists that threshold is much smaller since the free sites don't scroll off as quickly. __________________ Latex Vixens Babes In Boots Well Heeled Women Dressing For Sex Stocking Vixens

2005-07-14, 01:09 PM	#12
Toby Lonewolf Internet Sales Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Houston Posts: 4,826	Sue, you're probably ahead of the curve. Many jump in to the business, have no plan, thinking they're gonna get rich, and give up after they find out that you actually have to work to make money. After a long hiatus I got back into the biz in Oct of '03. So many changes since I'd been gone that had to essentially start from zero. I didn't make enough to even cover my hosting fees for the first six months. I kept pluggin' away, fine tuning here, reading and learning. Finally in April '04 I broke even for the month. Sales continued to increase each month until Sept 04' when things all just seemed to fall into place and sales doubled or more each month through the end of the year. To be honest, I'm not really sure what I did last Fall that made the difference, but I just kept at it, deleting unproductive sponsors, trying new ones, fine tuning my sites, etc. This has gotten a bit long, but my point is, just keep at it the sales will come. __________________ Latex Vixens Babes In Boots Well Heeled Women Dressing For Sex Stocking Vixens

2005-07-14, 02:38 PM	#13
Toby Lonewolf Internet Sales Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Houston Posts: 4,826	Sue, is that traffic from banners, free sites, or something else? I don't use a set "rule". I just try every method of promotion at my disposal and if none of them convert well, I cut my losses and move on. I try not to get too worried about raw numbers. __________________ Latex Vixens Babes In Boots Well Heeled Women Dressing For Sex Stocking Vixens

2005-07-14, 06:02 PM	#14
Linkster NO! Im not a female - but being a dragon, I do eat them. Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Sex Delta Posts: 5,084	One rule that I kinda set for myself a long time ago - and usually try to stick with - is on free sites, unless a sponsor goes out of biz or I figure out something that I really did wrong in the advertising text - I dont go back and touch the sites. I would rather spend that time making a new site for either submitting or just a free site to get listed on my hub and have for a rainy day submit. I also pretty much from the start always made some sort of filtering hub - in my case it turned into a linklist that became successful - but it didnt start that way - it originally was just a categorized hub that listed all of my free sites, as well as having deeper pages that had FPA's - and that is where I sent all of my traffic instead of directly to the sponsor - that way I could get the surfer either hotter - or directed to a better choice. When I put up a sponsor banner - it went to my hubs FPA for that sponsor - and had a directory at the bottom - that basically talked to the surfer and tried to figure out what they really wanted - it also gave me the ability to filter by someone really wanting to go to a paysite, someone that would go for a free trial, or someone that wasnt going to buy anything - and in the end I could always trade off that guy for a new surfer or two by sending them to a toplist or other trade where I knew I would get something in return. Eventually I built in some traps for the non-buying surfers that would wrangle out even more traffic - and started having some flow around my own network of sites that were built the same way - and with the free sites I was building and other pages I kept adding to the site - the SEs picked up on it - and that provided even more flow. Time to do this was pretty much over 2 years - before seeing a real substantial profit - at which time I was able to finally retire from my day job and do this full time Then I converted over the hub to a Link list and havent looked back - but still make my own free sites and galleries - and loads of pages just for the search engines - and I believe that if you ask GG, Surfn, Tommy or any of the others that have been around for a long time - they all still spend hours a day making sites and pages - because in the end analysis - Its all about quantity!!! I bolded that cause I was very hard-headed for the first two years - and wouldnt listen to Tommy and a few other friends - so I kept beating myself around about quality - everything had to be just right - well - I've learned my lesson Sue as far as those ratios - Ive seen worse - but I would just experiment - build another free site that uses a little different approach - maybe all text or less banners and a different sponsor - you will find that magic match between you and some group of sites that will come back and slap you 6 months later Last - an old lesson someone once gave me about how to write advertising on a free site: Think of your free site as the back page ad on a Sunday newspaper - most people "glance" at that automobile ad and if a "special deal" on a car jumps out of the page at you - the ad worked! You just spent longer looking at that ad than the average surfer looks at a free site which is usually around 9 seconds. Now - how do you get that surfer to look longer - and even more importantly how do you "hook them" You have to have something that literally jumps out of the page at them - if you have a banner that is the regulation size - they wont see it - surfers eyes tune out that size graphic after the first few days of surfing - so if you use a banner it has to be unusually sized (BTW - this also gets around most of the banner blocking software programs surfers use) I know - youre thinking - well I just cant write ad copy that well - here's a little suggestion - get a Sunday paper - look at those inserts for the national chains - what jumps out at you? Then get something like a Hustler magazine - read the ad copy on their ads - And I can tell you in most cases - dont ever use the text links that sponsors have Either 500 people have already used them, or they dont know how to write ads either. Thats the reason that some people keep repeating the mantra of finding a niche that you are passionate about to sell - they dont know why they keep repeating the same thing over and over - but here is the reason - you will naturally write better ad text if you know the subject and either enjoy or at least fantasize about the niche Also - don't be real picky about typos - a well-placed typo can attract attention Getting the theme here - dont just put out a free site that says "you can get access to this site here - click here" when you could say "Nasty midgets the right size for munching pussy standing up" Seriously - the more you look at how the professional advertising firms write ads - the more you can practice it and the better you will become at it. __________________ Pussy Chompers Porn Links NSCash

2005-07-14, 08:57 PM	#15
Toby Lonewolf Internet Sales Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Houston Posts: 4,826	Nothing in this post of substance, just a suggestion to back up one post and re-read Linkster's post again. There is way too much great information there for all of it to sink in reading it just once. __________________ Latex Vixens Babes In Boots Well Heeled Women Dressing For Sex Stocking Vixens

2005-07-14, 09:59 PM	#17
sue-fl You can now put whatever you want in this space :) Join Date: May 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 2,837	I agree with Toby, Linkster gave me some get info. that may not all sink in with one read. I copied and pasted it and plan to use it as a guide when making my free sites. Linkster thanks a million for all the great advice! When I make my free sites I often copy from my sponsors and put it on my site. What you said make so much sense and I never thought of it that way. I think I see a lot of my problems now. Hell I used to do phone sex years ago. I have no problem making up sex fantasies! I just never thought that would come into play in a freesite. So making up my own dirty text is something I'll will do. And those few words that really jump out at you also. Thanks so much!! This is the most I've learned since I've started doing this! I know you don't have to take the time to help newbies out. I think it's awsome that you do...

2005-07-15, 07:21 AM	#19
ArtWilliams You can now put whatever you want in this space :) Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 6,244	This is the best teaching thread I've seen in a while. Thanks everyone!

2005-07-15, 03:29 PM	#20
sue-fl You can now put whatever you want in this space :) Join Date: May 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 2,837	Guess all your great help sent me some luck also...nice sales day for me!!

2005-07-22, 01:11 PM	#24
pornrex feeling a bit better Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 1,779	What an awesome thread indeed! I was once told that if you use never before seen sponsor content (first come, first submitted sort of thing) that it was ok and chances are it would be listed. But after reading what Linkster wrote in a couple of posts here, I see that there are 'better' ways to make it in this business than simply relying on sponsor content and I have certainly learned a number of lessons this month from hosting to freesite building to SEO (still learning this part of webmastering - lol!) to content issues, that's for certain. Thanks for the help! __________________ colo-cation - the only host you'll need

2005-07-23, 06:06 AM	#25
JohnnyR I can now put whatever I want in this space :P Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Boobville... I like it way better here Posts: 557	Linkster... you rock man . Thanks for that post. spookyx, great to see you posting here. I'm gonna hit you up on ICQ later if that's ok __________________ With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine!