What Makes A Paysite Go Choke?

[DJilla]

Help me understand this. I've seen more than a handful of paysites disappear in the last year or so. I can't figure out how or why this happens and to me it really doesn't make any sense.

Let's disregard those sites that are just stealing money and finally get caught.

But, if you have a site, with content, especially niche content and your own servers or even hosted, even if you get in trouble and have to lay off employees or get a job, why would a site not just make enough little money on its own just sitting there with typical links, affiliates, etc. whatever.

What would be you five most important rules not to fail?

[RawAlex]

Much of recent closing have been related to 2257 fears, and a lack of valid documentation on content used on these sites. With the restrictions on foreign documents and other wierdness, combined with the number of sites shooting content in other countries, etc... it's been a pain.

That is numbers 1 to 4 in your top 5 all by itself.

Alex

[Tommy]

it could be partners that cant along or dont wanna work together anymore

[Ramster]

What Tommy says is very much true.

Other things can be the owner has no idea about traffic generation and after a few months of opening and very little in sales he/she decides to close it and sell the content. Or doesn't renew the visa fees.

Some sites just don't convert so programs "pull" the site as to not degrade their program.

[Jim]

Very true Tommy
Or, the person that owns the paysite may just be burntout. They may be just done with this business and figure on living on recurring. Of course I have seen people just walk away finding god or claiming they found god. Or then the person that figures out that what he is doing is harming women.

All sorts of reasons...

Another reason is the business is changing. Traffic generation is important, but if the traffic lands on a page that has poorer content than it's competitors it's worth less than it could be.

What's better, generate 10% more traffic, convert 10% more or do both?

Those relying on number 1 will lose out. Those doing 2 will get the affilaites who send traffic slowly but surely. The guys doing both are the ones moving forward.

[Surfn]

I think it's the reason most any business fails adult or otherwise...undercapitilization. People believe they have the next great wonder of the business world but do not have the funds to weather them through the tough times that often accompany startups.


And of course there is the smaller percentage already mentioned that either get burned out by the business or their partners or both. I also know for a fact that some grow rich and let others run their businesses not caring if it goes belly up or not because they had made their's...

Originally Posted by Surfn

I think it's the reason most any business fails adult or otherwise...undercapitilization. People believe they have the next great wonder of the business world but do not have the funds to weather them through the tough times that often accompany startups.

I don't think I've ever been in a business where so many want to "Fly with the eagles" with the "Equipment of turkeys"

Then are amazed at the lack of elevation they achieve.

[DJilla]

Originally Posted by Jim

Or, the person that owns the paysite may just be burntout. They may be just done with this business and figure on living on recurring. Of course I have seen people just walk away finding god or claiming they found god. Or then the person that figures out that what he is doing is harming women.

Arrrrrrhgghghhh, there'll be none of that here there now mateys or thee be walking the plank...Righto? |jolly roger

Ok! Well that sort of confirms what I suspected. Basically, I'm still hearing that if you want to be in it and are doing it there aren't any real reasons for failing outside of poor content/conversions and personal choice.

The next question is $29.95 is about the AVERAGE member rate although I'm seeing some sponsors are starting to bump up to 39.95 for "new" sites. My rough estimates are that after processing, aff pymts, etc. maybe your walking away with $11-$15 for remaining costs and profit. Is this about right?

Finally, what is the typical $$$ arrangement if you turn your content and site over to someone like Top or OC or Dirty D or even a feed company for them to market it (if you got it like that) ?

Thanks for the input?

[GenXer]

I don't want to step on anyone's toes here, but I've noticed one very popular paysite lose its luster. I even see members complaining on a forum geared toward their surfers. The members have been complaining that the videos are not updated enough, some of the ladies that are supposed to do cam shows for the members haven't been showing up or act really bored, and other things etc etc. What I can't believe is that with the members posting on a forum about how they are upset about the lack of content, that the owners of said site who can definitely see that their members are pissed, aren't doing anything about it.

I'm sure with a little digging someone may guess what site I'm referring to. There have been rumors that the owners of said site are off venturing into something else, but forgetting about the members that made them rich in the first place. All I know, is the members are dropping like flies. If they would only pay attention to their members, they could retain them and keep them.

Neglect of a paysite and lack of quality content is the #1 reason I can think of for a site to go choke.

[T Pat]

Alex hit the nail on the head, I haven't shut my paysite down (yet) but I stopped shooting content. The girls I was photographing in Mexico all had sex worker cards and would gladly blow a stranger for $20, but letting me photograph them and their Identification isn't going to happen for any price

[LB]

Contary to popular belief, running a program is actually quite expensive. In fact its not very hard to run up $5-10k monthly expenses trying to grow a program, and many people try to start one with spare change in their back pocket and end up going broke because they either lack the product, traffic or know-how

[DJilla]

All good points and one more occurred to me last night based on the comment of "updated content" (I'm thinking more and more about this end of the biz). The sheer opportunity for an individual to consume HUGE amounts of porn in a relatively short period of time is really a factor. The demand for updated content is a little weird element because a surfer can pour through an average paysite picking out what they like in a few evenings of dedicated effort. Whereas, I used to own a porn store in the eighties, early nineties, the video booth quarter type store and it would be just impossible for the most dedicated porn lover to get the equivalent number of videos, be able to hide them from the wife and actually watch them in a sort perod of time. Our most dedicated customer maybe would buy two or three videos a week (and the new ones back then cost 39.95 - 79.95 each).

So I conclude thinking about the observation that maybe the market for porn has not grown quite as large as statistics would suggest, but partially reflect the dedicated lovers being able to consume it so quickly and move on.
So I conclude

[Ramster]

Originally Posted by LB

Contary to popular belief, running a program is actually quite expensive. In fact its not very hard to run up $5-10k monthly expenses trying to grow a program, and many people try to start one with spare change in their back pocket and end up going broke because they either lack the product, traffic or know-how

Exactly!! When you get into content and other startup costs it adds up fast. If you don't have some cash behind you the site could be dead before it gets going strong as sometimes it takes months to really start flying.

[ronnie]

Originally Posted by Jim

Of course I have seen people just walk away finding god or claiming they found god. Or then the person that figures out that what he is doing is harming women.

All sorts of reasons...

I remember that one, was making good money too, all gone...

ronnie

[Far-L]

My top 5 reasons in no particular order:

1. Undercapitalized to sustain operations

2. Trying to run on too slim a profit margin

3. Spending too much on flash without having sustainable cashflow

4. Caught stealing

5. Not diversified and prepared for fluctuations

[Linkster]

Far-L - all extremely good reasons - and the top 5 reasons for brick/morter biz's to fail as well - its all the same. Unfortunately there has been talk around the world about how easy it was to make money on the internet for years - of course it was just a few that were really making the good money but it stood out - those days are long gone and to start a business whether in a strip mall or on the internet requires the same basic principles today. And most people that set out to do this just dont have the capital, the biz sense and the dedication to succeed - its just a fact of life.

All of the people that I know that succeed all have the exact same traits - they dont cheat or steal, they put in longer hours than anyone Ive ever seen - 20 hour days or 36 hour marathons still exist, and they are obsessive about success. And most importantly - they never boast or brag about their successes

[Allfetish]

Here are some top ones:

1. Getting out of the industry.

2. Lost merchant account.

3. Third Party Billing company went away (Globill, IBILL)

4. Changes to law / political atmosphere

Of course #2 and #3 should not happen if you are smart.

[xxxjay]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Much of recent closing have been related to 2257 fears, and a lack of valid documentation on content used on these sites. With the restrictions on foreign documents and other wierdness, combined with the number of sites shooting content in other countries, etc... it's been a pain.

That is numbers 1 to 4 in your top 5 all by itself.

Alex

Alex said it perfectly.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by xxxjay

Alex said it perfectly.

Who has closed due to 2257 issues? I hope no respectable U.S based companies - that has been around longer than Joan Rivers... everyone in the states should have been prepared for it to some degree... yes, the changes made it even harder to deal with but that is why multiple groups are challenging it.

[DJilla]

Originally Posted by Far-L

Who has closed due to 2257 issues? I hope no respectable U.S based companies - that has been around longer than Joan Rivers... everyone in the states should have been prepared for it to some degree... yes, the changes made it even harder to deal with but that is why multiple groups are challenging it.

Without going into a list here, I can't tell you the agravation and time I've spent rearranging my pages and links over the last few months. No doubt most of them are 2257 related, but over the last year personally I've also noticed more than a handful just go "poof" and from all the reasons listed here my feeling on the most common reason (besides business practices) and this is just a feeling, it seems to be related to the WM just not being able to weather:

a) not making a gazillion dollars like he/she thought they would... quick and giving up and

b) great at the technical but can't keep producing enough content or can provide content but no clue about the technical.

"Homegrown" is actually kind of a model for me to study. You have had great staying power. Not overly slick, super niche, constant content and a connection with surfers.

Finally, one of the things I like about this business that I think chews people to pieces is that it is just plain "competitive" to the level of a nightmare

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by Far-L

Who has closed due to 2257 issues? I hope no respectable U.S based companies - that has been around longer than Joan Rivers... everyone in the states should have been prepared for it to some degree... yes, the changes made it even harder to deal with but that is why multiple groups are challenging it.

Many of the major programs dropped sites due to 2257. Most of the time it seemed to have to do with the model records not being acceptable (wrong document for a foreign model) or the source for the images used in the site was unable or unwilling to provide the documents required (some because they were lying sacks of shit, and others because privacy laws in their country do not permit the sharing of that information without signed permission from the model).

Out of about 500 paysites listed on findpics, I think I had to pull between 30 and 50 of them during the 2257 situation. Many programs did it very quietly, just having the sites redirect without any real notification. You wouldn't even know it unless you were checking links. I still find them now and then, on older pages with direct links I didn't remember.

Considering you are in the "amateur" market, you should know that many amateur sites were shut down because models didn't want to take the chance of having their home address put on their websites. While many found solutions to get around this requirement, others just through up their hands and left the business or became cam girls to avoid the hassle of running their own sites with that level of exposure. You can find older amateur sites that are now nothing more than doorways to personal live chat pages...

For 2005, the major part of paysites I have seen shut down have been related to 2257.

Alex

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Many of the major programs dropped sites due to 2257. Most of the time it seemed to have to do with the model records not being acceptable (wrong document for a foreign model) or the source for the images used in the site was unable or unwilling to provide the documents required (some because they were lying sacks of shit, and others because privacy laws in their country do not permit the sharing of that information without signed permission from the model).

Out of about 500 paysites listed on findpics, I think I had to pull between 30 and 50 of them during the 2257 situation. Many programs did it very quietly, just having the sites redirect without any real notification. You wouldn't even know it unless you were checking links. I still find them now and then, on older pages with direct links I didn't remember.

Considering you are in the "amateur" market, you should know that many amateur sites were shut down because models didn't want to take the chance of having their home address put on their websites. While many found solutions to get around this requirement, others just through up their hands and left the business or became cam girls to avoid the hassle of running their own sites with that level of exposure. You can find older amateur sites that are now nothing more than doorways to personal live chat pages...

For 2005, the major part of paysites I have seen shut down have been related to 2257.

Alex

Yep I knew about the solo girl sites/true amateurs with relation to not wanting to put home addresses out for all to see but I am curious what big corporate amateur sites had fallen to the wayside... I guess it makes sense that no one wants to name names but I just think it is odd that they weren't being more careful to begin with.

[RawAlex]

The majors didn't just drop amateur sites, they dropped all sorts of sites. Anything that was dependant on content from eastern block countries, some from asian countries... there certainly was a shakeup. It wasn't any one program dropping a ton of sites, but many of the major programs dropped sites, features, or merged sites as a result. I had to review all paysites listed on my link sites because enough of them were dropping as to be a true pain in the ass. I am thinking here that ARS dropped some of their reality sites around that time... like Supermarket Whores...

I don't really have a list of the ones I removed, for the most part it was ones and twos from programs, not entire programs or anything like that. I know for sure that it was the most paysites I have removed from link sites in a long time.

Alex

[Emperor]

A great way to choke is to have your affiliate site so fucked up that people can't join the program.

Here is an example:

http://www.realbigcash.com/