Do you "Support our Troops"?

[Jim]

As a Disabled Veteran, I always thought even if I didn't support the idiotic wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, I should support the people forced to fight there. But recently, with the news of the 24 person massacre and now a new one that the US claims was 4 people crushed from Helicopter fire and yet a video of the 11 people clearly not crushed but shot instead, I have officially changed my mind. Actually, all it took was the torture to do it but, this just keeps adding more and more to the fire.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/5039420.stm

This is looking worse than the shit that happened during Viet-Nam. I just read, "Kerry To Introduce Amendment Calling For 'Total Withdrawal' Of Troops From Iraq By End Of Year" and it looks like a real good idea to me.

The government has had to scape the bottom of the barrel to get enough people over there and it is starting to show. When I went into the Army back in 1979, I almost couldn't get in. I was on probation for something small and stupid but I had to get the judge to throw it out with a year remaining before I could even take the physical. And, you had to either graduate from high school or have a GED. Neither of those are true anymore. When I see a list of US military deaths, I always look at the age. and when I see someone 45 or older that was killed, I wonder, what the fuck is he doing there. Most are not officers and if they were in the military even since they were 25, they would have retired by now. This is why, if you are going to do something as stupid as go to war for nothing, you need to start up the draft and keep the higher standards that were once in place.

[Surfn]

Originally Posted by Jim

As a Disabled Veteran, I always thought even if I didn't support the idiotic wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, I should support the people forced to fight there. But recently, with the news of the 24 person massacre and now a new one that the US claims was 4 people crushed from Helicopter fire and yet a video of the 11 people clearly not crushed but shot instead, I have officially changed my mind. Actually, all it took was the torture to do it but, this just keeps adding more and more to the fire.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/5039420.stm

This is looking worse than the shit that happened during Viet-Nam. I just read, "Kerry To Introduce Amendment Calling For 'Total Withdrawal' Of Troops From Iraq By End Of Year" and it looks like a real good idea to me.

The government has had to scape the bottom of the barrel to get enough people over there and it is starting to show. When I went into the Army back in 1979, I almost couldn't get in. I was on probation for something small and stupid but I had to get the judge to throw it out with a year remaining before I could even take the physical. And, you had to either graduate from high school or have a GED. Neither of those are true anymore. When I see a list of US military deaths, I always look at the age. and when I see someone 45 or older that was killed, I wonder, what the fuck is he doing there. Most are not officers and if they were in the military even since they were 25, they would have retired by now. This is why, if you are going to do something as stupid as go to war for nothing, you need to start up the draft and keep the higher standards that were once in place.

Amen!!

[SirMoby]

I still blame the leaders. I've spoken to a few soldiers that were in Iraq and they all believe that Sadaam was the master mind behind 9/11. They were also told that mass graves with over 300k were found in Iraq, that they had WMDs and that Iraqi terrorists were planning on attacking US schools.

They're breeding hate not just in the American public but also in the soldiers. Rove knows that hate is the only thing that can get people to the poles and keep his party in power and it's also a powerful motivator to kill.

They can't justify the war with a single fact so they must justify it with hate and we've been seeing the results for the years. The Nazi's and Fascists have a few things in common and the breeding of hate for controlling people is one of them.

[Greenguy]

It's all about the oil, man!!!!

I'd probably support them if they were drafted & not so brainwashed.

[MadMax]

I choose to believe that the massacres and such are the work of soldiers who are the exception and not the rule, but I agree with most of the points you've made there Jim. We've got a situation in which basically anyone who feels like it can enlist and be given a gun, then get put in a situation where their day-to-day decisions can result in horrible tragedies. Most people are not cut out to be in positions with that sort of power or responsibility, and as you said, I think this kind of thing is largely the work of the non-existant standards for enlistment.

[karomesis]

They can't justify the war with a single fact so they must justify it with hate and we've been seeing the results for the years. The Nazi's and Fascists have a few things in common and the breeding of hate for controlling people is one of them.

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double edged sword, it both emboldens the blood just as it narrows the mind; and when the drums of war have reached a fevered pitch and the blood boils with hate, then the leader will have no need in siezing the rights of the citizenry; for the citizenry, infused with hate and blinded by fear will give up all thier rights, and gladly so. How do I know this? this is what I have done, and I am ceasar.

[frankthetank]

Originally Posted by Greenie

It's all about the oil, man!!!!

I'd probably support them if they were drafted & not so brainwashed.

Everything is about money nowadays, at least nearly everything.

But what happens in Iraq is usually related with war. Torture, rape and so on. I won´t justify it, but it´s a matter of fact that all of it happens regardless what the official reason of the war is.

[T Pat]

I volunteered to go in the Army shortly before my 18th birthday, April 1972 I went through basic with the last of the draftees Lt. Caley was being tried at Fort Ord for the Meli Massacre at the same time.
To leave the base was a nightmare because you had to get past all the protesters and I will never forget a chic calling me a murderer and spitting on me at the Salinas bus station. It would sadden me to see these poor dumb kids treated the same way.

Jim I agree the war is wrong and the difference between the draftees and most of the enlisted men then and now is like night and day.
I don't agree on blaming the enlisted men, I blame their leaders, they know what they have to work with.
I hate to classify George W. as a leader but I blame him and his ass hole buddies Cheney and Rumsfeld their the real villains.

[Carina]

Originally Posted by frankthetank

Everything is about money nowadays, at least nearly everything.

But what happens in Iraq is usually related with war. Torture, rape and so on. I won´t justify it, but it´s a matter of fact that all of it happens regardless what the official reason of the war is.

very well said man

[juggernaut]

I'm in now till nov. And I still work with soldiers everyday, most have been in the "Sandbox". I have been luckly in my ex-career. And have not been in combat. I have seen some interesting things and scary places but never combat. I always try and look at this from both sides as I have a added perspective as seeing and dealing with it everyday. 1 part of me blames the leaders another part of me blames all the soldiers involved. The way I was tought was you do not obey an unlawful command. Regardless! Period!. I can bet that everyone of those soldiers is wishing they did what they were tought. Maybe not so the younger and lower enlisted as when you are at that level, disobeying a direct order is a scary thing. You are never really sure if your commanders over your commander are going to protect you. The upper-level enlisted should be ashamed, they know better and have been in long enough to not have fear of dis-obedience. We are also dealing with a differant style of branch, The Marines. They are trained to be killing machines. I'm sure most Americans have one or two as a relative or friend and know what I'm talking about. Not your most mentally stable people I have run accross. They are of such a brotherhood that its something no one will understand unless they have gone through it with them. We cannot place a judgement on soldiers as a whole. Here we are as a group of adult webmasters who consitantly yell out foul when we are placed in the same catagory as CP webmasters. There are bad bunches to every pile. Let's not turn this into another "We hate soldiers!" era of the early and mid-seventys. We are not in a possition to say what we would or would not have done if we were there. It's hard to place yourself in an envirorment where if you turn your back or even have been perceived to have turned your back on your brother what would happen. Those of you who have been in know how easy it is for a person to be ostracized. Something you cannot afford to let happen. Who knows, you can be the one on the floor the next day and the guy next to you thinks you fucked him. You think he might move just a little slower to help you out? Would you take that chance? How easy would it be for you to turn to the "dark side" and kill some people if you have watched friend after friend get wounded or killed day after day by these people? When you were most likly lied to as to the reason you were going in. When you are there you cannot make friends with that culture, you cannot trust them 100%. One day the nice lady who waves to you every morning. Is blowing herself up 30 feet away from you. Think of what it's like to wake up everyday and not knowing if you or the person you are friends with is going to die. Think if you were walking down the street in your local town and someone just exploded. They live in a world we cannot comprehend sitting were we sit. Bad things happen in war, that's why it's call war.
I for one will not place judgement on those guys. They are going to be punished both via the courts and their own souls.

[sue-fl]

Oh hell no! You can not stop supporting our troops because of the actions of a few bad ones. Jim your right that they had to pull up a lot of people who are not ready for combat though. Our men and women are over their because the joined the armed services, and happen to have an idiot as a boss. There are a lot of good soldiers over there, you can't blame them all for the actions of a few though.

[docholly]

I'm almost 100% positive that those people in the military who joined before 2001 never ever imagined that they'd be in a war in Iraq. I'm almost 100% positive that those in the NATIONAL guard never thought they'd be in Iraq and not walking the streets of Paducah. It's a weekend job to make extra money. Certainly my now ex-husband never thought he'd be gone this long (March 2003-now) floating on a boat off the coast of Oman when he was promised a teaching position in Annapolis. He says the news they have on the ship's feed is so totally different than what we have. The only time they can access websites like CNN or other news sites is when he gets shore leave and can go to an internet cafe in Muscat. And he's an officer. But the superiors feel it would have an affect on the ship's mentality if they knew we were losing the fucking war.

but that does not negate what I refer to as the "video game mentality" because a good portion of the ground troops are 30 and under.. They've been saturated with 'war games' on their video and now they get to live it in real life. Back in 2003 after we 1st invaded. one of the reporters on the scene for CNN was interviewing this young man from the LA area. The reporter asked him how he was doing and was this what he expected when he enlisted. The kid said.. "No it's not like the video games, people get shot but they don't get a replay" So i think in their head they must feel it is OK to go into a town and slaughter innocent people. Afterall they could do that on their playstation.

We aren't talking Harvard graduates here. Who enlists in a volunteer military at horrible wages and even worse living conditions? Some of them who's only hope is to get out 'dodge city'

Wars, for whatever reason, are never good. People, sometimes innocent die. But this war is unconscionable because it was started on lies, it's been accelerated on more lies and maybe not in my lifetime will GWB go down as not only the very worst president we ever had but will be right up there with the other butchers in history like Hitler, Stalin, Idi Amin etc.

Nixon is looking pretty good these days.

[virgohippy]

Thanks for your sentiments Jim. It means a lot that you can evaluate this so openly, especially considering the sacrifices you've made as a disabled veteran. But what do you mean by "support our troops"?

It seems to me that the greatest support I can make to our troops is to demand they come home. If that means calling this war an abomination, and thereby lessening the honor those serving might gain by doing their job, then I will criticize. I'm not going to hesitate simply because a person is putting their life in jeopardy for ideas I don't believe in.

That being said, if someone does choose serve I won't automatically hate them. I just can't condone giving up human life for intangible ideals.

Anyway...

Anyone catch that the Iraqi's wanted to do their own investigation into those 24 civilians shot up by those soldiers? If that's not a step towards independence, I don't know what is! Standing up to someone bigger than you with a gun is damn ballsy, man! Too bad uncle sam is such an overloard.

[diggz]

Jim, when you see someone over 45 in the casualties list.. you can basically chalk that up to the individual working a regular dayjob and thinking he could get an extra paycheck by serving in the National Guard 1 weekend a month.

I fully support our troops. They have no choice but to follow orders at this point. I also at the same time cannot wait for the exit of tyranny from our command post.

Here is an interesting topic that I have discussed with some friends:

In relation to the recent events, whereupon marines murdered civilians in "cold blood". Basically the marines knew that an IUD had been triggered by someone in their vicinity, so they opened fire on everyone in that area (men, women, children, etc)... hoping to kill a terror suspect out of the group.

What makes this any more "cold blooded" than say, a pilot who is instructed to deliver a missile into an apartment building, whereupon many civilians and suspected terrorists are guaranteed to be casualties?

The pilot kills civilians in a cold blooded manner, just like the foot soldiers. The only difference is he does not see those he murders. Thus the pilots own blind ignorance to the result of his actions, leaves him free of prosecution?

The civilians killed by a pilot are casualties, just like the civilians killed by the foot soldiers.

The only difference is if you want to prosecute the pilot, there are many "higher-ups" that will fall with him... However, with foot soldiers, you can say they acted "against orders" and prosecute them individually.

So in singling out individual soldiers, it just takes the heat off of those who really are responsible for the Iraqi civilian casualties.

I mean out of an estimated 40,000 civilian deaths in Iraq, these marines are the first ones to take a fall? I smell bullshit.

I support the troops.. but I don't support the ones giving them orders.

[Evil Chris]

Originally Posted by Jim

start up the draft and keep the higher standards that were once in place.

Originally Posted by Greenie

I'd probably support them if they were drafted & not so brainwashed.

Am I reading this right? GreenGuy & Jim support a draft? |badidea|