the future of tgps and link lists (maybe)

[Greenguy]

Originally Posted by Sean416

I think the only real way this would happen is if the US implies some kind of law....

You're in Canada - you of all people should know that the US does not make Internet Laws, no matter what our silly gov't thinks

[Sean416]

Originally Posted by Greenguy

You're in Canada - you of all people should know that the US does not make Internet Laws, no matter what our silly gov't thinks

bah... I wish that were true. But the way I see it is somewhere down the line we're all connected to the US laws in some way or another. If it isn't the webmaster living in US, it's the processing company, if it's not the processing company its the host, if its not the host, its something else. True you could have a company that used all non-US resources but as it stands right now, I say about 75% of online webmasters are connected to the US in some way or another. They would either have to really switch up how they do business, or comply to the rules.

My being in Canada just means I know all too well what this saying means "When the elephants dance, the mice get stomped"

[Greenguy]

You know what I love - and this doesn't apply to Tommy (LOL)

The geniuses that run CJ's & blink link TGP's that think that they should be able to charge surfers for clean gallery links after fucking them over for the last 5 years

[security_man]

Originally Posted by Greenguy

You know what I love - and this doesn't apply to Tommy (LOL)

The geniuses that run CJ's & blink link TGP's that think that they should be able to charge surfers for clean gallery links after fucking them over for the last 5 years

yeah, but wouldnt you if you could?

[Linkster]

Tommy - if you remember - I was one of the few that agreed with you back in the day when we were discussing paid submits a few years ago
I happen to agree with you on this as well - for a few reasons.
First - from a biz model as you mentioned, we have been screwing ourselves for years to make money for sponsors - and they in turn have taken it further with the addition of free hosted galleries and loads of free content for submits, leading to the "easy path" for a bunch of new WMs and killing off a few big content companies in their path.
Second - and I think that there is a low buzz already developing about this - the organizational side of this biz has always been lacking - people have developed into small groups, but never a large "association" that worked towards the benefit of the people that do the real work in the biz (traffic generators)
Third - A lot of self regulation done early on our side would lead to less future attempts at regulation from the outside, and some people still look at the internet as a wild wild west - it still "seems" that way, but with everything from lawsuits to international treaties in the works already to regulate the internet, this will change - and we better be ready.
Last - there are some technical issues that will have to be handled ranging from issues with SE's caching and image hotlinking (copywrite issues) to handling WMs in countries that tend not to care about self regulation but I truly believe that can all be worked out to everyones benefit.
I say we should definitely not let this one drop for a few years like we did with the paid submits

[mrMagoo]

A federal court dismissed obscenity charges against extreme associates, here is the article http://www.avn.com/index.php?Primary...tent_ID=214089

One of the reasons cited for dropping the charges was that extreme associates has their content behind a member's area that can only be accessed with a credit card.

So charging with a credit card gives you some protection.

[whitey]

Originally Posted by Greenguy

You know what I love - and this doesn't apply to Tommy (LOL)

The geniuses that run CJ's & blink link TGP's that think that they should be able to charge surfers for clean gallery links after fucking them over for the last 5 years

You are right on GG...When we did the experiement, there were several other tgps involved - most of them cj/tgp type sites.

Our site and one other had clean gallery links with a couple of semi blind links - "click here for more tgp galleries" or "visit our other tgp for more galleries" type of thing that many "clean" tgps use.

In general, the cleaner the site, the better the conversions. We primarily focused on the niche/hardcore nature of the protected galleries. We charged $10.00/month.

I agree with the sentiments expressed by several regarding the fact that competition will drive things to the lowest common denominator - free porn. But, by gaining trust of your surfers and providing them higher quality, high res galleries featuring hardcore porn in a non hassle environment, money can be made.

From a submitters standpoint, all I can say is that the hardcore galleries in the protected area converted at a rate I have not seen since we dropped the project.

It was only a three month project with about 5 or 6 tgps participating, but the results were encoraging.

[Tommy]

you guys keep talking about the hun

when extreame paychecks opens 5 new paysites the huns traffic doesnt go up

I am not gonna change over Tommys and even if everyone else did it I would be the last man holding the fort Kicking and screaming BUT I am very tempted In fact I am gonna
try it on a new tgp and go around premoting my new paid tgp like its a sponsor

now lets say this tgp makes truckloads of money
think about it, look at nasty dollars they were the first that got in to reality content
and now they are one of the biggest sponsors around

do you wanna be one of the johnny come Latelys


Remember worldsex got sold for like a million dollars what if worldsex could have charged the surfers a small price and made 2 million in the first 4 months
dont you think he would have done it ??????


Sooner or later the Ambulance chasers will find this industry and living in holland isnt gonna help you, If you do buisness in the USA they can get your money


I am not spreading doom and gloom rumors
This is a vision maybe a prediction, Maybe a fantasy

[Chop Smith]

Damn right, Tommy. Go for it Buddy!

[SirMoby]

As usual Tommy, your idea has a lot of merit. The first thing that popped into my mind was AVS. Remember the Visa regulations did NOT kill the AVS companies but only made them change their marketing and some folded at that time because they were already loosing money. AVS companies were loosing members because they had terrible sites in the network. Some AVS companies still exists and the sites, the content and the navigation makes for one of the worst porn surfing experiences that can be found on-line today. Just go surf Adult Check and see if you can get a boner.

A Mr. Mary Lou, a GG or a Tommy running something like that would push for quality sites and keep growing the member base.

If surfers come to your site they will buy. The Home Shopping Network should be proof enough that people will buy anything at any time for reasons that no one can possibly understand. They will buy your memberships.

If you had a strong network of porn sites that could only be had at Tommy’s money site then the surfers would not only buy they would also renew month after month.

I don’t see this as a replacement for free porn but I do see this as a new revenue stream. It will work if implemented correctly.

[Stever]

A large site like the Hun and others would be foolish to go to a pay model. Their high traffic IS their money flow. PERIOD.
Sure they throw sponsor stuff up to collect their 50% here and there but their real money is the banner ad spots. Some are affiliates for a % of sale, but many others are a flat monthly fee for the priveledge of being there, seen by 3.5 million per day.

In my nievity I inquired about banner spots on the Hun. I forget what the prices were, over $1000/month for good spots.?. They rotate dozens of adds and they were fully booked for the next 4 months. That's money!

And there are the sites that charge big $$ to be able to post your galleries to the top 10 spots. Essentialy the same as paying for advertising spots. That's what we are all doing here is advertising to the masses. We are not realy in the porn business. We are in the advertising business.

Free porn is a great business model for the high traffic tgp sites. Traffic comes to see it cause we all want to see sex. They need new stuff every day to maintain a reason for traffic to come, but can't possibly supply that much themselves. So us little guys keep submitting galleries to feed the demand and pray we entice a few of the masses to whip out a Credit Card cause they like our free stuff enough to see what it is like to get the full monty instead of single photos and short vid clips. For a site like the Hun to switch to a pay model, no matter how cheap, would be suicide.

Its all about the traffic!!!

Sure a small TGP with a decent amount of SE traffic could do O.K. (like cover hosting) with a pay model of some sort. Yes some people will buy anything. But that TGP would stay small and never realize the potential of a free TGP.

And the sponsors have to love the free porn model too. Those that complain about it don't have a clue how their biz even works. They end up with the best marketing team anyone could ever ask for. Hundreds, even thousands of us gallery builders are promoting for them to every corner of the traffic stream. Some of us suck at it and others are great at it. And the sponsor only has to pay for performance. Not to mention the large leak in this system where surfers who see the adds over and over finaly go to the site by typing in the main URL cause they cant remeber where to find the gallery they saw it on last night. Or those that purposely avoid affiliate links cause they don't like the thought of someone else making money off them. Or the faulty tracking systems that dont report every sale...........

Free=Money

[EDIT] I did not read all (or even most) the posts in this thread. So I am not sure how much of what I said has already been said in one way or the other. Just some of my thoughts. [EDIT/]

[SirMoby]

Linkster, wouldn't it be great if there was an organization that focused on growing and protecting the business? It's difficult but not impossible.

[Linkster]

I think its very possible especially if you give the perks due the traffic generators and ensure the sponsors realize that the traffic doesnt come cheap like they do in the mainstream world already.
Have you noticed the amount of sponsors that have sprung up in the last year because they realize that traffic is almost free from us?
There are many benefits for a WM that could be put in that organization, as long as the overall path is to the promotion of the biz long term and not just for one companies benefit like so many of the splinter organizations that exist out there today.

[Chop Smith]

I don't Tommy's fantasy was to change the entire biz model.

Originally Posted by Tommy

what if ALL the tgps and linklists charged the surfers a small price for access

I read it to mean that he visioned charging a small 'surfing fee'. Therefore, the content for his site would still come from submitters and free hosted stuff. If he was planning otherwise, he might as well turn the site into a 'pay site', providing his own content.

Originally Posted by Linkster

First - from a biz model as you mentioned, we have been screwing ourselves for years to make money for sponsors - and they in turn have taken it further with the addition of free hosted galleries and loads of free content for submits, leading to the "easy path" for a bunch of new WMs and killing off a few big content companies in their path.
Second - and I think that there is a low buzz already developing about this - the organizational side of this biz has always been lacking - people have developed into small groups, but never a large "association" that worked towards the benefit of the people that do the real work in the biz (traffic generators)

How do you figure that you been screwing yourself? In return for your traffic, sponsors and/or submitters provide you free content for you site. And if anyone got screwed with the advent of the "free hosted craze", it was the submitters. It was like a manufactor going to direct sales and cutting out the merchants.

Originally Posted by Linkster

I think its very possible especially if you give the perks due the traffic generators and ensure the sponsors realize that the traffic doesnt come cheap like they do in the mainstream world already.
Have you noticed the amount of sponsors that have sprung up in the last year because they realize that traffic is almost free from us?
There are many benefits for a WM that could be put in that organization, as long as the overall path is to the promotion of the biz long term and not just for one companies benefit like so many of the splinter organizations that exist out there today.

The sponsors are not getting a free ride, they are paying 50+% of their gross for your traffic either to you or your submitter.

The 'bottom line' is this is a three way street - sponsor = provider of goods/service, LL and TGP owners = provider of media, much like radio, tv, print and submitters=provider of adverting copy, a kin to ad agencies. We all need each other.

[xxxjay]

How stoned were you when you came up with this idea? J/K

Though, a good linklist has enough content on it to where it is worth a subscription.

Making it member based would stop SE spiders in their tracks though.

[Kath]

Wow... definitely something to think about - I mean, just look at all the responses and tangent ideas posted already in this thread (plus the ones everyone is keeping secretly for themselves ATM - lol).

An idea that inspiring is definitely worth a try... would love to cover a story on an experiment like this and see what happens!

[PayAsYouClick]

There is a way to introduce this type of idea gradually to surfers, without killing traffic.

We've developed a way of charging the surfer a few cents for each link he follows, rather than asking him to pay for your whole TGP by subscription.

Here's a demonstration TGP site that shows the kind of thing I'm talking about :

http://www.demotgp.com

The block of thumbs in the middle are all charged at 10c each. You can come down to 1c. Look at the url, and you'll see that the link is encrypted. But pay 10c (or whatever) and you're taken to the gallery.

If you tried to do this on your main TGP, of course the surfer would run a mile. But you could think about charging the surfer to follow links in your archive. Or make "specially recommended" links 5c each.

The surfer has to get a PayAsYouClick.com account to follow these links, and that's of course the barrier. But once the surfer sees that there is a now huge amount of content available from 1c to $2, they do sign up pretty well. There's some other examples on that page of how to charge him for content - do some clicking and you'll see what I mean.

Coming back to your TGP, you and your submitters know that the only people following those paid links (even at 1c) have proved they're able and willing to spend. So suddenly you've got fantastically qualified traffic going to those galleries. No sensible sponsor is going to begrudge you charging the surfer 1c per click for listing his gallery like that.

The real icing on the cake is that when you introduce surfers and they sign up for an account, you receive 50% commission (after processing) of everything he spends on ANY sites, EVER. So just exposing the surfer to this on your TGP is a new revenue stream, even if he doesn't fancy paying for links yet.

We've got more than 100 live sites using this now, so surfers are going to come across it more and more. If the TGPs get behind this, they have the power to make this a reality.

I'd be grateful for your feedback on this idea.

Regards

Danny

[SEO_Konsul]

Originally Posted by xxxjay

Making it member based would stop SE spiders in their tracks though.

there are possibilities to make such areas accessable, stuff I have already been doing in the past

[Greenguy]

You know, this does bring up a question - can you legally charge for access to other peoples sites/galleries?

If I had a program that had hosted galleries & free sites & someone was charging people to look at them, I think I might have to call my lawyer.

[PayAsYouClick]

Of course, that would hold true whether you are charging for access to the whole TGP, or charging for the individual links.

I wouldn't suggest for a moment that you'd charge for individual links without making it part of your own submit terms, so that everyone was happy with it.

But remember that as a sponsor, the traffic coming to you from that kind of link would be from surfers who had been prefiltered. So the bandwidth bill goes down, and the conversions go up.

That sponsor could also charge for extra clips etc on that gallery page, knowing that the surfers that hit the gallery can make payments of up to $2 with one click. Effectively these would be preveiwing the subscription content - exactly what they're doing now for free, but able to charge say 20c per clip.

Remember also that what you are charging for is access to your "directory". The page you're linking to is freely available - you're not selling their content.

As a link list owner you can legally copyright your links. So if you can do that why couldn't you charge surfers to use them.

Danny

[caringneo]

Originally Posted by Greenguy

You know, this does bring up a question - can you legally charge for access to other peoples sites/galleries?

If I had a program that had hosted galleries & free sites & someone was charging people to look at them, I think I might have to call my lawyer.

GG is right.
The submitter provides content, hosting, banwidth, and his time and work expecting traffic from linklist/TGP. Making money out of that for free is not a good idea.
Neo

[spookyx]

One of the problems I see is the Visa thing. They might not like the idea of all the freesites/galleries not being on "your" domain.

[swedguy]

Originally Posted by caringneo

GG is right.
The submitter provides content, hosting, banwidth, and his time and work expecting traffic from linklist/TGP. Making money out of that for free is not a good idea.
Neo

For free?

There's a lot of work behind a LL. The charge would be for reviewing and providing links to the best porn out there and some other goodies. A submitter is never forced to submit to a LL/TGP. They can either submit to LL A and get 5000 mixed hits, or submit to LL B and get less traffic, but pre-approved. I know that I would take both

But the legal issue is interesting. It's the submitter that hosts the content, and he's not charging anything. It's the LL webmaster that only has a link to the free site that is charging. Common sense says that it's all good, since the person that is using the content doesn't charge anything.

[PayAsYouClick]

Originally Posted by caringneo

GG is right.
The submitter provides content, hosting, banwidth, and his time and work expecting traffic from linklist/TGP. Making money out of that for free is not a good idea.
Neo

Absolutely. That's why it is such a good idea. The sponsor gets adult-filtered traffic that's ready to make payments with one click.

Nobody's suggesting the TGPs should make money at the sponsors' expense - whether you charge for the links individually or by getting the surfer to buy a subscription to the TGP. That would be an unsustainable business model, and I think we've had enough of those already!

PayAsYouClick can also be used to (for example) charge the surfer 20c (say) for 24 hours to reach your archive / premium links page, ie a short-duration subscription to a particular part of your TGP.

[Chop Smith]

Originally Posted by Greenguy

You know, this does bring up a question - can you legally charge for access to other peoples sites/galleries?

If I had a program that had hosted galleries & free sites & someone was charging people to look at them, I think I might have to call my lawyer.

Think you are correct. Most contain a copyright notice. Of course you can contract for anything legal, so the terms and conditions for the LLs/TGPs would have to be rewritten to cover the legalities.