New free site format (version 1.5)

[Sergeyka]

It is necessary to believe

To criticize always it is easy

[swedguy]

First time I only got to UW's post. But now I read the whole thing.

Instead of posting stats, I should have brought beer and peanuts!

[CrazySy]

I think I am going to try and make a sample freesite v2.01 sometime this weekend I make sure to ask "Who would list this site" for a good

[Greenguy]

Originally Posted by Sergeyka

Example
http://www.nubiles-girls.com/f/naked-lala-princess/

Free site add in Russian LLs, no mirrors unique text content

Originally Posted by Sergeyka

Greenie!
To add a rule for free site 1.5
1. Minimum 40 other LLs
2. Free site (main page - index.html) created domain.com/free-site/index.html and gallery only gallery1.html (index1.html) and gallery2.html (index2.html) page.
Other pages In other folders - decline

In a result - 100% no MIRRORS

The example links to 36 Link Lists in the "recip" area. Is there a term for someone who tries to prove a point with incorrect examples?

****

So, now that I have taken a nice 2 hour nap & thought things over, let me sum everything up for Kit to comment on when he returns:
1 - Nothing Kit posted makes sense or changes anything that is always in place, except the removal of the warning page (which is called "a good faith effort" by ASACP)
2 - The hidden aspects of this - as alluded to by Sergeyka - are Free Sites where the 1st page is named index.html & has 40+ recip links on the left hand side of the main table.

Did I miss anything?

[Greenguy]

Oops! How come it's Free Sites 1.5, but Link List 2, which was a Free Site version of TGP2, failed miserably 7 years ago? |badidea|

[swedguy]

Greenie, you should star in Chainsaw Massacre 3.0

[DangerDave]

GG speaks for me on this one...

Free sites primary use is NOT SEO .. and if you think they are.. you need to go do some reading.....


As has been said.. Nothing has changed, the same static pages, in the same order, still not updated..


Oh wait.. one thing may have changed...

If you submit this type of site to PenisBot etc.. It would move THIER recips further "up" your page, making them one of the first things an SE robot will find and making "THEM" more important.. than the rest of your page...

So.... after having destroyed you page with BS spammy keyword recips, you would make the first links "off" the page the most important things...

Here is an easier way.... Find a gun, aim it at your foot, and pull the trigger...



DD

[borgivan]

I'd try to clarify a pair of moments. Shortcomings that Kit pointed to, are realy far from this format, just because it is just test. Nobody can formulate the rules and say, "YEH, THEY ARE COOL, AND WILL WORK!", so this discussion has the main aim to make your brain to work on the problem of LL slow death. I'm sure that many FS posters has there own experience and observations about SEO and usability of FS, everyone has something to say, like "I have a suggestion, I wanted this feature on FS for 7+ years, but rules fuck my creativity!". But in this discussion practically nobody said so, on russian board there was a great discussion, and the result you see is united thoughts of differen webmasters.
About text. Owners want unique texts on each FS. The easy way is to write the text from FS in quotes in google. If Google says "NO" that is cool, the text is unique and 99% that after a week of listing google will give you ONLY ONE result by the same text, and this will be FS , that submitter posted. You see? This time, LL really gets a link from UNICQUE SITE! +50 links from PR3+ LLs and we have PR2+ UNIQUE FS, link from whish will be minimum 2-3 times better for LL! But it is, IMHO, not only mine.
Then about links, it really seems strange to do them as a blogroll, but it works on blogs, it works on other sites, it is more readable to serfer, than a table of unknown banners or links.
About %s from different pages, whi dont you think that it will be 90%-index/main, and 5 and 5 - galleries? It is necessary to try and then to talk about. This business consists of experiments, suggestions and blether. People who want to experiment - experiment while you are talking shit, and won't tell you about results it it works.
To Greenie, you told you don't know google alhoritms. NOBODY KNOWS ! All SEO is about realisation of observation of SE reactions to this or that changes in site structure and so on. Kit and Co has a GREAT experience and lots of observations, and when he says that it will be better it is not just a thoughts, I think that he is "daddy" in seo and I respect him about this, the same way I respect you as a "LL daddy". So it is your choice what to do with new format, but I think you soon suggest something new, too. Ewerything changes and biz too, we have to adjust to it, so this topic is normal reaction to biz changes. Nothing more to say for now.

[SheepGuy]

Personally when I build a free site I don't give a rat's ass for SEO, though sometimes I get it.
What interests me the most in this discussion is finding ways to make FS's more interesting, and hopefully more profitable.
I don't build many free sites anymore, because my time makes me more money building galleries and AVS sites, but I used to do very well with different looking free sites, before the standard format became the only way to build.
I like what Persian Kitty lists, very few rules.

[JohnnyR]

I'm confused... What's all the fuss about? Are we supposed to call GG daddy now? Is that it?

Originally Posted by borgivan

the same way I respect you as a "LL daddy"

Ya know, everybody's talking about how this would affect LLs.
WHAT LINKLISTS? THEY'RE ALL GONNA FUCKIN' DIE! Except the top 40 or so. You'd think some people would think twice... Is this really it? Is enough traffic leaking into too many smaller LLs that it's bothering some people out there? Or is it the fact that with mirror pages some folks can't be sure they're gonna be the ones ending up on the page google actually indexes. Or maybe the fact that the links are further down the page, instead of being the FIRST THING the bots see?

So basically what people wanna do is remove a sales page, right? The first one? The one where there's no content to catch the surfer's eye? The one that they actually HAVE to READ the text links on? Wadda ya know! Some of you might just be dirty lil pervs that can't hold their horses 1 click longer to get the pictures afterall. Am I the only one in this for the money? Not to mention it's the warning page the one people want removed - the page on which, not long ago, you weren't even allowed to show a half of dick in the corner of a small banner!!


I'm all for change, but change for a reason, not for the sake of changing. It basically boils down to this: you'd be removing 1 sales page for no (as far as *I* can see) good reason, because someone has to bring up a compelling motive YET!

This will either blow over in a week, either we're gonna have a split, in which case we're gonna see just which way is better! Either way, this smells like trouble for the submitter!

[Useless]

Originally Posted by JohnnyR

So basically what people wanna do is remove a sales page, right? The first one? The one where there's no content to catch the surfer's eye? The one that they actually HAVE to READ the text links on? Wadda ya know! Some of you might just be dirty lil pervs that can't hold their horses 1 click longer to get the pictures afterall. Am I the only one in this for the money? Not to mention it's the warning page the one people want removed - the page on which, not long ago, you weren't even allowed to show a half of dick in the corner of a small banner!!

Don't concern yourself with kit's ideas. Kit hasn't ever returned to the thread to help us understand his points. If changes do happen, I can see only two true changes:
1. We swap out the table of 15 recips for a list of recips of whatever length.
2. Loosened restrictions on the number of ad blocks. The layout of advertisements should be determined by the design of the site, instead of the current manner in which the design is based on a restricted number of ads.

Originally Posted by Waka-Jawaka

Well, one standart text recip table, no need to make all these mirrors, it may be the reason for fs builders to submit to a bunch of smaller LLs, they never submitted before.
I dont know, if major LLs would appreciate 40+ recip tables, but for smaller LLs it may be a chance to draw more quality freesite builders. No?

That's a what couple of us were thinking as well. Those of us who don't want to build mirrors would finally have good reason to submit to many more link lists. There are people who submit to 200+ link lists, and those folks will still have to mirror, but the vast majority of submitters don't go to that extreme.

Originally Posted by HarryM

It could look ok if you didn't have to link to category pages aswell.

Your samples are much nicer than the one I was working on. Basically all anyone would be doing with the structure of this happy medium free site is building the same old warning page they have been, but adding a recip column around 150-200px wide to one side or the other, and dropping their current recip table. Can you imagine how nice life would be for those who include their recips via SSI? If they submit to only 50 link lists, they could make global changes by editing only one file.

Originally Posted by Maj. Stress

Did I forget anything?

A point.

Listen, none of us plan on forcing anyone to change the way in which they build their sites. You aren't going to wake up tomorrow and see that Such and Such Link List now only accepts free sites with 50 other recip links on them. I believe that there is a bunch of submitters who will gladly jump on this slightly altered format and then others will realize how stupid it is to mirror when they can build just the single site and submit that everywhere rather than screwing around with mirrors.

Maybe this enlarged recip grouping will help reduce the sting the next time submitters are told that they must include more content to be listed. That's on the horizon. Of course, not from me. I still accept free sites built with 20 screen caps.

[CrazySy]

^^ Can someone please translate what he said?

[LD]

Originally Posted by CrazySy

^^ Can someone please translate what he said?

The point I understood him to make is that if you do multiple mirrors, only one of the mirrors gets indexed by G because they are duplicate content, so if a site is listed on your linklist, and it is one of the mirrors that does not get indexed, you're screwed from a SEO standpoint. BUT, if you have one site with 50 links on it, you have a unique site and all 50 list get benefit from Googles indexing. And since it's not uncommon for blogs to have 50+ recips, why not freesites?

I'm not saying I agree because I know shit about this stuff, and Greenie has already shot most of it down...but that's just my understanding of what he is saying.

Greenie mentioned a few post up that people can and do change the code and/or text on each mirror (I haven't been doing this, but I will start) then each mirror can get indexed. This does seem to have an advantage in that 2,3,4, or more sites get indexed instead of just one.

Also, Greenie mentioned that the end result is that the list owner gets benefit rather than the freesite builder.


At any rate, interesting thread. I am for anything that would help freesites convert better.

[Useless]

Originally Posted by LusciousDelight

BUT, if you have one site with 50 links on it, you have a unique site and all 50 list get benefit from Googles indexing. And since it's not uncommon for blogs to have 50+ recips, why not freesites?

Hello - exactly! (That's a line from Boogie Nights, btw.) It's worth pondering, at least, for those who still have the ability to think for themselves.

I'm always amazed at how resistant the old guard is to change unless, of course, it was their own idea or their new rule. I could easily shoot down many, if not all, of the contrary points put forth in this thread, but I'm not here to argue with friends. I do suggest that people give a new format some thought. The strangest fact of this whole new idea is that it's being proposed by the owner of a link list who isn't having any traffic problems at all.

[DangerDave]

Originally Posted by Useless Warrior

I'm always amazed at how resistant the old guard is to change unless, of course, it was their own idea or their new rule. I could easily shoot down many, if not all, of the contrary points put forth in this thread, but I'm not here to argue with friends. I do suggest that people give a new format some thought. The strangest fact of this whole new idea is that it's being proposed by the owner of a link list who isn't having any traffic problems at all.

UW, we aren't resistant to change.. but change for changes sake has never helped anyone....

It is my belief that this new "structure" ISN'T NEW..! As far as I know there is no rule that says you CAN'T link the galleries off the index page.. in fact I know people that do and have done my self...

.. and you can have recips on your 'main' page for many established LL's....

So what is new? Nothing?

Except as I said before..... recips are closer to the top of the page...

DD

[Useless]

Originally Posted by DangerDave

As far as I know there is no rule that says you CAN'T link the galleries off the index page.. in fact I know people that do and have done my self...

The person whom I think does the most SEO on his free sites does that very thing and it never fails to impress me. It had never occurred to me to do that, or even that I could.

I'm not really sure as to why I've been so slow to understand what the actual SEO purpose was of this "new" format. (It's probably been clearly stated, but I've been mostly skimming the thread and reacting to little bits.) Anyway, the point, I suppose, it to eliminate mirroring. That way, each link list is directly linked to (and from) the page which Google is indexing and giving juice to, instead of the current manner which is pretty much a lottery. Right now, link lists sort of luck in to being on the mirror which Google mysteriously decides is the one to behold.

Like I've said, when I build free sites, I don't mirror. I build a single copy and submit to my select group of lists. So the new format wouldn't benefit me much as a submitter, other than giving me good reason to submit to more places, but I am beginning to see the bigger picture here. I realize that free sites are no great SEO tool. But I am wondering if they could gain some SE love if they were altered in a similar manner as to what's being suggested. Also, even if the new format proved to be only good for link lists themselves, wouldn't that by default be good for the submitters?

Another point - what if the only the index was changed per kit's suggestion, but the main page was left intact? Anyone have feelings on how that would impact lists and free site builders? My idea would be to place the warning and ad blocks on the left side of the page and place a thin column of recip links in blog roll style down the right site. At least that would eliminate mirroring and dupe content. Though honestly, I'm not sure how much you can do for pages that often 2 or 3 directories deep.

[JustRobert]

Originally Posted by LusciousDelight

BUT, if you have one site with 50 links on it, you have a unique site and all 50 list get benefit from Googles indexing. And since it's not uncommon for blogs to have 50+ recips, why not freesites?

This is the part I like. I submit to around 40 lists so this would allow me to make one entrance and no mirrors. I see no difference in 40 single recip links or 20 dual recip links. Seems like more incoming links for the same amount of outgoing links would be better.

I also do not want to be told where I should put these links, like what has been suggested. If I want to put it on top, left, right, middle or on the bottom (before enter links) it should be allowed. Plus you need to keep single links to the link list title name only (not spammy concoctions), so the size of it all is about the same and hopefully not to overwhelming.

At this time most of my sales do come from the index/warning page, but I seriously contribute this to being the first point of contact to sell the surfer and nothing more. Because of this it does not matter to me if its a 3 or 4 page freesite. I even like the idea of a 2 page freesite. Index/Warning page leads into one big (20 to 40 pic) gallery page. Maybe on the gallery page submitter would be allowed 5 or 6 outgoing links to compensate. I keep my number one page for sales and the surfer has easier access to content for more bookmarks. Just a thought.

[murray]

Free sites are designed as they are now to whip up the surfer into a frenzy hopefully.

The index page is to wet their tastes and give em a good idea of what the site is.

Once the surfer hits the main page he has a chubby and we hope the banners really start to look good.

Now the gallerys, his hand should be on his cock and and other getting ready for a credit card.

You need to get em warmed up and pumped up. This 1.5 crap is gunna turn surfers off straight away cause they are faced with a barrage of spammy blind link style recips that certain ppl love these days.

[Maj. Stress]

Borgivan,
Maybe I missed something in the translation on your last post. Are you trying to compare a blog to a free site? The two have nothing in common other than they are pages published on the web.

I have not seen one thing mentioned in this thread that would accomplish what Kit was talking about in his original post.

I think most of us are open to change (as Danger Dave has stated). If you are going to change something make it a positive change. I would like nothing more than to use flash videos (instead of mpg) on html pages with a brief description of the clip and maybe what the full length movie is about along with a link to the sponsor and a link back to the index of my free site. It is doubtful I will ever see that day as people have abused luxuries like that in the past.

[HarryM]

Originally Posted by Maj. Stress

I would like nothing more than to use flash videos (instead of mpg) on html pages with a brief description of the clip and maybe what the full length movie is about along with a link to the sponsor and a link back to the index of my free site.(

Yeah that would be something. What kind of abuse is possible with action script? If it's pop ups and stuff, you can already do that with a wmv.

[Maj. Stress]

Originally Posted by HarryM

Yeah that would be something. What kind of abuse is possible with action script? If it's pop ups and stuff, you can already do that with a wmv.

I didn't know you could do that with a wmv. But I don't really spend much time trying to fuck over a future customer.
I didn't really have anything in particular in mind with the abuse. I leave it up to the bathroom gangs around the globe to come up with things like that.

[LowryBigwood]

Goodluck trying to change the established model. As far as I can see, all of the points you mentioned Kit are not validated. I also agree that the purpose of the normal freesite is not intended to be SE friendly as GG and DD stated. Maybe 3-4 years ago, but certainly not today...

Lets just scrap the entire free porn model all together and then we'll really make out?

[KG Gary]

From a design point of view, I'd love to see some change allowed in the way I build freesites. After a few hundred, even the most original designs look like overused templates.
Change is welcome as long as we make sure the changes benefit everyone involved as much as possible. I'm not convinced that this new idea does that.

A few questions:

1. What happens to all of those smaller/newer link lists out there that don't make the 40-50 limit? Do we just drop them and the good relationships we've built up?
I'm not happy to do that, sorry.

2. How would a link list owner know if mirrors are created?

3. Can anyone coax Greenguy into sharing his new ideas so we can bounce them around a bit?


I was considering the referring page - sales thing a few days ago when comparing the use of sponsor content to bought content.
From what I could see, using sponsor content on a freesite gets me more sales, although the index page does show as the referring url. That leads me to think that the surfer takes a look at the sponsor straight away, from the first page of my freesite, then returns to my freesite to check out my free samples, and then heads back to the sponsor from a gallery to join if he likes what he sees.
That's what it looks like, but I could be wrong.

[Useless]

Originally Posted by KG Gary

From a design point of view, I'd love to see some change allowed in the way I build freesites. After a few hundred, even the most original designs look like overused templates.
Change is welcome as long as we make sure the changes benefit everyone involved as much as possible. I'm not convinced that this new idea does that.

A few questions:

1. What happens to all of those smaller/newer link lists out there that don't make the 40-50 limit? Do we just drop them and the good relationships we've built up?
I'm not happy to do that, sorry.

2. How would a link list owner know if mirrors are created?

I'm sorry I missed this earlier. (I've appointed myself the official spokesman for the campaign of modifying kit's modifications.)

1. I assume that those of you who submit to more than whatever the mysterious cut-off limit will be, will need to continue mirroring their sites. Fortunately, you'll have to create fewer mirrors.
2. Link list owners won't know who is mirroring anymore than they do now. But there is the presumption that many submitters would no longer need to mirror simply because they don't submit to that many lists.

I also realize that there are many, many submitters who have spent an enormous amount of time gathering and building recip tables and they aren't going to be very happy about tossing away all of that hard work. Therefore, any transition to a changed format should happen slowly, like evolution, rather than an overnight swap out.

LATE EDIT: Here's a basic mock-up of an index page. http://www.theactusreus.com/schlampe/test.html Assume that the rest of the free site would be business as usual. Who is harmed or hindered by that?

[CrazySy]

Originally Posted by Useless Warrior

LATE EDIT: Here's a basic mock-up of an index page. http://www.theactusreus.com/schlampe/test.html Assume that the rest of the free site would be business as usual. Who is harmed or hindered by that?

Are you a freaking mind reader?

I am just finishing a site with similar layout index page (but with only 18 recips )