Katrina aftermath - what the fuck???

[dareutwo]

Originally Posted by emmanuelle

Does California have an earthquake plan?

For the "Big One", yes they do, but unfortunately it's plan is based on California moving 20-25 miles north in about 1 minute, and the Home Base Operations is in Colorado

Calliope - GW turned down all offers of assistance so far.

[juggernaut]

From my vast experience in the military and federal employment and working with the National Guard I have to say those guys have it harder then any other military. Not only from the stand point of having a day job but also from the command sense. They take their orders from the state level. Meaning, even if GW sent them to war your State's governor has the power to stop that. Even more so in the mid-east (NYC NJ ETC) if the governor feels it’s too important to take "His/her" troops then he can say no they are not going. But on the other hand you are dealing with a political nightmare. Any Governor to say such a thing would just be looked at as not wanting to fight this war.
So 70% of there air craft are in other places through out the world, we know this. The problem is stemming from most NG who would help with this are the ones who live there. Now on other issues that come from this100% of all soldiers are ruled by UCMJ military law, which is enforced at the DOD level. Now what that means is if a soldier gets orders, those orders are coming from the President. If they disobey those orders, they go to jail (that’s active military). The National Guard is ruled by UCMJ but it's not enforced on a federal level. In other words someone in the NG can get orders, but they would come from his governor. And if they disobey those orders the UCMJ CAN be enforced but it does not have to. The ending decision comes from that’s NG TAG (like their 5 start general, governors military advisor). You will find that most NG does not enforce these rules for a couple of reasons. Most of the soldiers in the NG are long time soldiers, lifers. The average experience level of these soldiers is 18 years in the military. Most of that time is over 10 in the NG. So the TAG's understand what it means to have a day job and deal with the military. They will not stop a man from trying to help his family. If someone from the NG got orders and never showed up, they would get in trouble but most likely just a slap on the wrist. These are not your normal military families; they don't live on bases or live the military life 100%. So for them family comes 1st and no governor or tag is going to put someone in jail for helping his family, even more so if the soldier is a good solider, never having any infractions. Worst part about this is, that most NG soldiers are better then the active military. Nothing against them, it's just the numbered facts. They have a long military experience and training (most train active military), and when sent to schools it’s a hardship on the family for a few months, it's also hard for a NG to get the schooling as all military schools require some kind of physical training test in order to pass the school. The NG will not send a solider to school for promotion or anything if they feel they will fail the PT test. So when they do go they are ready. Plus the state flips that bill and if the soldier fails the school its money wasted. So now you have guys with all these years of experience (most experts in their field, you would be surprised the amount of doctors and lawyers in the Guard) who can't or won't show up to help because they are trying to help their families. I'm sure GW is getting a reminder of what it means to not show up for training or anything else in the NG. I mean he surly remembers he did not have to. I personally would have gone. I know the NG would have helped its family first so their soldiers can work with the comfort of knowing the family is safe. But when no one shows up to drive that boat or fly the chopper where do you get the skilled labor from? Sorry for the long one. Jugg.

[Calliope]

My question is where are all our "international" friends? Food and water was dropped 2 days after the tsunami, its now day 5 and no massive water/food drop?

Where to put the people? - Isn't the gulf full of cruise ships? Isn't NO on the Gulf? At least they would have shelter and get them out of the city until permenant shelters could be etablished in other areas.

This whole things rips my heart out - I have many friends who live(d) in and round NO. Little by little we are finding them safe.

[furrygirl]

Originally Posted by Calliope

My question is where are all our "international" friends? Food and water was dropped 2 days after the tsunami, its now day 5 and no massive water/food drop?

Where to put the people? - Isn't the gulf full of cruise ships? Isn't NO on the Gulf? At least they would have shelter and get them out of the city until permenant shelters could be etablished in other areas.

I've read about Qatar pledging 100m to relief, as well as Castro sending doctors: http://neworleans.indymedia.org/news/2005/09/4260.php & http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/03/katrina.castro/

Plus, the government has hired 3 Carnival cruise ships to provide temporary housing.

[Lemmy]

"apart from the million dollars in monetary assistance, Venezuela is offering two mobile hospital units, each capable of assisting 150 people, 120 specialists in rescue operations, 10 water purifying plants, 18 electricity generators of 850 KW each, 20 tons of bottled water, and 50 tons of canned food"

US response? Unsolicited offers can be counter productive.

http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=8012

[CaptainJSparrow]

Hi Guys,

I'm from Louisiana...Baton Rouge to be exact. I "snuck in" to New Orleans this morning with my brother to check on his house. Normally, I don't get involved with "political speak." This time, I think I'll add my 2 cents.

First off, Leon, Spaceman Spiff & Jenny are fine. They got their power back on late last night, but their internet connection is still down. Obviously I'm (you called me Rogue...my icq handle) fine too...my power was off until Thursday night.

Let me tell you, don't don't get too caught up in all this crap that they're showing on the news. First, we had very little warning of this pending storm because no one knew where it was going...we can't run everytime there is a storm in the gulf.

Second, our contra flow for traffic worked exceptionally well...everyone willing and able to get out of New Orleans did.

Now these folks that stayed, and everyone is blaming the government for that...alot of them are too stupid, or in too much of a drug/alcohol induced stupor, to bother trying to get out. AND, since when did it become the government's, or the president's responsibility to force people to do something that they refuse to do for their own health? I mean, when do adults actually have take responsibility for their own situations and their own health and well-being? Everyone complains about big brother...then when something like this happens they complain that that same big brother should have done something about it. You can't have it both ways. This is a free country and those folks chose to live in New Orleans, knowing that it is below sea level. The majority of them chose to stay in their domiciles as well. They could have gone to the 'Dome or other places.

I've seen first hand TONS of busses going to New Orleans to get these folks out. I've seen the helicopters flying all over. At the New Orleans airport, there were lots of planes and helicopters flying folks out. Busses everywhere. Police from all over the country too. National guardsmen...on I-10 there were hundreds of trucks.

Let me tell you, what could have been a life ending disaster of "Biblical proportions" was missed because of the quick response of the authorities...both local, statewide, and national.

It pisses me off when the national media come in here and fly around filming (and playing the same film clips over and over and over again) the aforementioned folks and throwing blame at the government. These few unlucky folks are the exception, not the rule...and for the most part, they brought it on themselves.

Then you have idiots like Jesse Jackson begging for attention and ranting and raving that it's racism. Pardon my French, but Fuck him! He's just trying to get attention and incite unrest.

I drove around today, went to the Lake, saw some houses that had water damage...hell it's nothing that we folks from around here haven't seen before. I'm kinda surprised that folks from Biloxi, Mobile, Pensacola, and Miami aren't flipping everyone off and saying "Hello! We get this shit all the time." Yes, a large part of New Orleans got hit hard. It's under sea level and that makes it a bit more disastrous. It's nothing that can't be dealt with. Mark my words, they're gonna rebuild it better than it was before and faster than the national media leads you to believe.

We've had phone problems because of the vast amount of folks in one area. We've had lines at the gas pumps. We've had tons of people without power. But the great majority of us are alive and well. Real estate around here is skyrocketing. Landlords are giving their tenants the boot and selling their properties. Homeowners are raising the selling price of their houses because of the boom. There are no apartments for rent, no hotel rooms available. Jobs in this part of Louisiana are guaranteed for quite a while.

New Orleans will be rebuilt...my only regret is that those folks that scream "the sky is falling and it's someone's fault" can't be buried under the cement of those new structures that we will build. It'd be a great resting place for Jesse Jackson and lots of other folks that always throw stones without knowing what they're talking about.

Our government, President Bush, no one is responsible for this hurricane. It is a natural disaster. IMHO everyone has done a great job in helping folks survive.

[Erick G]

USA is too arogant to ask for help
which is fucken SAD but true.
Canada has sent rescue teams.
Countries have donated money.. I dont have the list in front of me.. but its getting big.
Bush is creating one hell of a legacy.. King of incompetence!
5 days to send help in..ridiculous! American's DESERVE fucken anwsers!

[docholly]

man i nearly punched this guy in the grocery line yesterday. Apparently when the few supplies finally arrived yesterday, AFTER George was there, (i'm surprised he didn't ride in on the top of one of the trucks).. there were quite a few angry words for the soldiers.

Well this asshole was kvetching.. about see we sent in food and they are still bitching. Loudly! (and other racial crap that I refuse to repeat)

I said to him: Excuse me but this store cannot sell you food for the next 5 days. He looked at me dumb struck. I said.. see you need to feel thirsty, hungry, tired and HOT with no communication from the outside world, surrounded by rotting dead people, sewage that has been left in 97% humidity for 5 days. ONLY then will you understand exactly WHY these people are angry.

He said they should have left. I said.. and left how? Walked? ridden a bicycle in 120MPH winds? did the national guard drive through the neighborhoods before hand offering rides? NO.. but they did get the tourists out.

well it resulted in an ensuing shouting match with about 6 people participating.. finally i just said in my normal voice.. See it is really all about content of character. Left my groceries in the cart and kept on stepping.

As bill maher said last night: George hugged a Negro today, now we can let the supply trucks in. (paraphrased cuz i was 1/2 asleep)

[Tommy]

this whole thing is bullshit

5 days before any real supplies or troops get there ???

think about as if this was your town

saying that they didnt know where to go was bullshit they could just turn on cnn see the people on their roofs and point and say go there

I will tell ya one thing i noticed....... white people know when to leave

I also dont think its fair to place all the blame on George Bush


but I seen on cnn GW was talking with fema leaders and who ever was in charge of the coast gaurd

he didnt know the cameras were on him, and he had that same stupid look on his face as he did at the school during 9/11. He just kept noding his head looking like an idiot

this guy is not a leader

[spookyx]

and what a lot of people have not yet thought about... what happens to the people that did get out. no jobs or homes to return too. pretty soon people that made it to hotels and such far away are going to run out of money and need help too. its like a million people unemployed at once.

[emmanuelle]

More than a million- Already my parent's company (based in Laurel MS) is in jeopardy.
Without power, internet or staff, they cannot bill clients, or pay their out of town employees. They still cannot get flights out of Jackson to generate revenue either.

A week or two of downtime can ruin many businesses; I expect to see many southern companies close in the near future.

[RawAlex]

The thing that disturbs me the most is pictures on one side of people trapped in their homes and stuck in various parts of New Orleans because they couldn't get out, and on the other side pictures of hundreds of school buses and city buses mid window deep in water, never moved to the service of these people.

In a city with a huge population of low income people who likely don't have transportation to get out of the city, I think the city (mayor and others) made a major mistake by not getting these busses on the roads and out picking people up.

Even at 50 people per bus, thousands of people could have been moved to higher ground before this turned to shit.

It's the little things that piss me off - because a collection of little things could have changed everything.

[Tommy]

if you really think about the job situation its really fucked

its gonna be 3 months before they start letting people back in

so 3 months before buisness can start rebuilding
who knows maybe 2 months to rebuild ??
but who is gonna rebuild when there are no jobs, which = no money

if you reopen your resturant nobody has any money to come and order food, drinks etc

[dareutwo]

Originally Posted by Tommy

so 3 months before buisness can start rebuilding
who knows maybe 2 months to rebuild ??
but who is gonna rebuild when there are no jobs, which = no money

I'm guessing a lot longer than that. When Andrew hit Florida, plywood prices 1800 miles away almost tripled. (and we make it here)
They don't have an infrastructure to build onto. All the gas, power, phones etc, no longer exist. What are you going to hook up too??
This will take years.

I would keep the people out for as long as it takes to have the really big equipment to get their jobs done. ie... don't allow them back for maybe a year. During that time, let the dozers and big crews get the heavy lifting done. It's a lot easier to tear up and replace a road when you don't have to detour or reroute traffic or worry about live wires, just tear it up and build.
If a 12 man crew can install the infrastructure to a new 50 house sub division in about 8-10 weeks, imagine what 15,000 National Guard, the SeeBeas and huge equipment can get done. They can work 24 hours a day.

[Erick G]

It is going to take 60-80 days just to drain the water which is beyond contaminated
Its going to take YEARS at the pace this gov moves for people to rebuild.

[Chop Smith]

Amen, Captain. But ain't it great to be from the most mis-understood region in America?

I don't think this has hit the news yet. Down on the Mississipi Gulf Coast, they are constructing a fence to block the public out. By Wednesday they hope to have the body count finished and the Mississippi National Guard, local and state agencies will begin dozering everything south of the railroad tracks. We are getting ready to rebuilt. This is not the first time and I am sure it will not be the last.

[CaptainJSparrow]

Lemmy, I never said "it serves them right." My point is, they should take it upon themselves to watch out for themselves...we can't blame the government for all of our problems. I mean, should the government take away all of our kitchen knives because some folks use them to hurt themselves, to commit suicide, or to commit murder? Alot of these people REFUSED to get out. Then, you see them waving flags on the news and say it's the governments fault. Hopefully, those white flags that they're waving will be flags of surrender saying "Ok, next time they say leave, re: MANDATORY EVACUATION, I will take it upon myself to go to a designated place of shelter, catch a ride, do something to get the hell out of there.

You know, my uncle told me that he wasn't evacuating...he said that his house had withstood hurricanes for 26 years. At 1 am on Monday he told my aunt, that if they survive this one they will never stay when there is an evacuation again. I almost begged him on the phone to evacuate. Thankfully they survived, with just minimal damage to their house.

I agree that in a perfect world the government should do as you mentioned. This world is not perfect. As free citizens, we should take it upon ourselves to be as responsible for our own well being as is humanly possible. IMHO these folks did nothing of the kind...they thumbned their noses at the government, and it's warnings, and now they're paying the price for their actions.

I've seen first hand that the government is responding. I've seen the military already involved. I've seen the police from lots of other states. I've seen the commandeered busses. I know of one company that chartered a number of busses to go get some of their employees and the government commandeered those busses... it basically said, your people are Ok where they are (ie they'll live) so we are taking these busses to help get out folks that are in more danger. I also know, for a fact, that one company had some employees that voluntarily stayed to "mind the store". As the water started rising because of the broken levee, they got worried. The company hired helicopters to go get the employees. The plan was to land on the top of the Tulane Medical Center's Parking garage (which has a heliport). The guard there, freaked out because of the national media's predictions of rioting, refused to let these employees get to the helicopters. These guards even flagged away the helicopters. Our governor called in and told these people to let those helicopters land. The employees were flown to private jets and taken to safety.

C'mon now, again, sure it's a disaster, sure some folks got killed. It is sad, but it is a part of life. I just say, that the majority of folks that got killed, they could've avoided it had they listened to the government. Hence, it is their own fault.

[CaptainJSparrow]

By the way, I'm not involved with politics at all. I pretty much hate politics. I'm not fanatically pro-republican or pro-democrat.

I am a big believer in people taking responsibility for themselves as much as possible and think that most folks should stop trying to blame others for their woes.

I think a smaller, better organized, less involved (in our personal lives) government would be much better.

I guess I'm trying to say that I really am not "pro-government" by any means.

In this instance, I think that they did an admirable job. I think that the national media paints as grim a picture as possible for viewers/ratings.

Good night all.

[SirMoby]

Captain, your compassion and IQ are showing.

[Torn Rose]

"The Buck stops here" is something Bush will never say.

Blame all of those who are simply too poor to own a car or for not having the physical ability to walk to the superdome or where ever, let’s also blame them for having no authority in place at the superdome and other places and also blame them for not having FEMA in the city for the first 5 days while CNN and other news stations where there the entire time asking over and over where is FEMA?

I think the NO mayor needs to be thrown in jail for all his lies since he is the one on tv telling those of us who do not live in Louisiana that it is fucked beyond belief and that people are dying, I feel stupid for listening to this person, I mean really, what does he know? Is he there? Odds are he is letting CNN making his decisions.

Thank you for setting me straight, when the USA can get a water purifier to Sri Lanka in 18 hours after a tsunami but it takes 5 days for FEMA to get to a major US city I just thought that was wrong, but since the people who are "there" say other wise, I must be wrong.

Lemmy when you call for a refund, tell them we want our donations back as well.

BTW, someone said FEMA did such a great job here in Florida, I suggest you come to Florida and talk to the people who are still waiting for FEMA to do their jobs and to the ones who are now being kicked out of the trailers FEMA brought in for them to live in until their homes are rebuilt which in most cases their old home is still there waiting on FEMA to do their job and let them start rebuilding.

Yes, it is for sure the so called “victims” faults that FEMA is ran by someone incompetent to do that job, and since that person was appointed by Bush, it must all be Clintons fault since he got a blowjob.

[CaptainJSparrow]

Hey, while we're blaming them for everything let's blame them for the hurricane as well. I'm sure you can find someone to point fingers at that that nasty old hurricane actually was allowed to hit Louisiana.

It's the President's fault. The governor's? Maybe it's the mayor's fault.

You guy's crack me up. Gotta bitch about something, huh?

Mistakes were made. Good things were done too though. Next time, we'll be better prepared, but I'd imagine, mistakes will still be made.

SirMoby, I've done alot to help others around here. What have you done? Please don't talk to me about compassion when you sit there and just bitch. Oh, and my IQ is 165...what is yours?

[Chop Smith]

Gen Russell Honore just told a Louisiana Congressman and a news reporter that they were full of bull shit. Basically, "if you are not on the streets of New Orleans" shut the fuck up and do something. I don't know who appointed him to be in charge, but they made a good choice - native of Louisiana and daughters live in New Orleans. This is a link to his CNN profile http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/honore.profile/

[RawAlex]

I just saw a report on CNN, Ex presidents Bush (father) and Clinton touring and setting up a fund that will 100% pass money directly to the states involved.

They interviewed Clinton... his off the cuff remarks about responsiblity, FEMA, Homeland Security, energy policy, action, ideas, and policies were so bang on. I remember now how this guy became president, by being able to say what so many of us think. Most important, he said "all of this is for the future, 60, 90 120, days... whatever... what is important now is taking care of what is here now".

It's not about political party - it is about appearing to take charge. Bush doesn't look like a man at the wheel, more like a passenger. The buck stops somewhere else, but he really isn't sure where (but he'll ask Cheney in case he knows - when he gets back from vacation).

"Don't just stand there Dr Dre, OPERATE"!

[Jim]

I have actually been able to stay away from news stations for the past few days. I feel good about my children's and my donations. Living in NYS, there really is nothing more I can do than give money. I do hope it goes to the right place.

If I were closer, I would do as much as I possibly could. When the twin towers went down, my wife and 2 boys jumped in my truck and followed the fire trucks down the thruway. We were stopped from entering the city but again, we did make quite a large donation. And at that time, we really couldn't afford it.

I do blame the government for not getting people out faster. I do blame the government for not getting supplies faster. Taking care of our people during and after a disaster is the government's responsibility. And they let everyone down....again.

[Tubey]

I am waiting on blaming anyone, there are too many variables. Besides they didn't know where the storm was going exactly, they had it going over NO then it went to the east some models were even predicting it to west of NO. So the question of where to put supplies and how much was unpredictable. Who knows they may have had a wharehouse full in NO and someone lost the keys.
In short, I find fault with everyone, from the govt to the people who refused to leave, and it becomes a big circle of what if. People have to realize errors happen and to have a perfect plan will never happen in a disaster this large.
So I wait, try to figure out what went wrong and try to prevent it from happening again. To sit here and get worked up about it now won't change what happened, it just adds more frustration and divides the effort to fix the problem at hand. As one person once said "hind sight is 20/20."