the future of tgps and link lists (maybe) - Page 4

Robbo · 2005-01-25, 11:33 AM

Then of course as a submitter you`d have to wonder about the benefit of being listed at a ll or tgp as such. Would it be like the internet that once surfers pay for access they believe everything else is or should be free? Therefore not being very productive or finding another place to surf after thier needs are not exactly met. Like prepaying to be presented a sponsor. I know I would hate to pay to be advertised to.

Chop Smith · 2005-01-25, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbo

I know I would hate to pay to be advertised to.

But it might improve your shopping experience and be worth the small 'surfing' fee- guarantee no popups, blind links and BS like that. Sort of like paying a small fee to get rid of a high-powered used car salesman.

PayAsYouClick · 2005-01-25, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbo

Then of course as a submitter you`d have to wonder about the benefit of being listed at a ll or tgp as such. Would it be like the internet that once surfers pay for access they believe everything else is or should be free? Therefore not being very productive or finding another place to surf after thier needs are not exactly met. Like prepaying to be presented a sponsor. I know I would hate to pay to be advertised to.

I think its all about perceived value. If you tell the surfer that this site is so good he's going to have to pay you to even be told where it is, it sets an expectation in his mind that the site is something special, or that you've had to work hard on his behalf to find it for him - however you want to sell it.

When we launched everyone said surfers wouldn't pay a cent each to view pictures because they're free everywhere else. That was just plain wrong. We watch surfers all the time click 300 pictures in an evening at 5c each, then come back for more the next day.

The same COULD be true for links if they're marketed right, and you guys sure have got the traffic to make that pay if you get it right.

But I don't pretend to know for sure what the best way of doing that is. We're just providing the tools for you to do it whatever way you can make it work.

Danny

SEO_Konsul · 2005-01-25, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenguy

You know, this does bring up a question - can you legally charge for access to other peoples sites/galleries?

If I had a program that had hosted galleries & free sites & someone was charging people to look at them, I think I might have to call my lawyer.

think this should be possible. remember, you offer a service and why should you not be allowed to charge a fee for it. actually I would love to get my freesites (if I had some) listed on your linklist thugh you charge a fee for you visitors

GeorgeTH · 2005-01-25, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenguy

You know, this does bring up a question - can you legally charge for access to other peoples sites/galleries?

If I had a program that had hosted galleries & free sites & someone was charging people to look at them, I think I might have to call my lawyer.

First: I still doubt if surfers would be paying to view a sponsor gallery (coming back to my initial reply!), but they would for some rather exclusive content in nice large images/movies.

Don't forget: there are still a few old-fashioned webmasters left who are actually buying content to make into TGP/LL galleries! And who says that then the gallery should be still limited to 16 or 20 pictures, 4 or 6 movies... A submitter could make a little larger teaser particularly for this system - I certainly wouldn't mind the traffic as long as it is not double charged (meaning; me as a submitter and the surfer to see it - you can milk a cow only so long). Should probably be better quality traffic.

I would think from the legal point of view the TGP/LL is rather charging for their service, not the content as such... And otherwise the TGP/LL owner could maybe pay a percentage TO the submitter as a sub-license fee! Now that would be a lovely new concept: get finally paid for submitting! I always thought that would be only fair!!!
(It certainly wasn't such a minefield when I used a micro-payment with my own galleries - since the content was licensed to me.)

KCat · 2005-01-26, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenguy

You know, this does bring up a question - can you legally charge for access to other peoples sites/galleries?

If I had a program that had hosted galleries & free sites & someone was charging people to look at them, I think I might have to call my lawyer.

This idea was brought up on GFY a few months ago & the guy got crucified for this very reason. A lot of exclusive content producers were not too happy with his idea to use their content in his own quasi-paysite.

Personally, I'd submit anywhere with pre-qualified traffic like that.

Verbal · 2005-01-26, 06:29 PM

So is anyone gonna test this out? The pre-qualified traffic would definately be a marketers wet dream.

It'd also be smart to get the sponsors onboard instead of hoping they're OK with it. Come up with some additional incentives for them, like feature their different paysites everywhere inside for a week/month, etc.

SEO_Konsul · 2005-01-25, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommy

This morning when I woke up I had a sort of idea

(not that I am seriously considering it)

what if ALL the tgps and linklists charged the surfers a small price for access

like 5.00 a month

people like pk worldsex and the hun could be multi millionares overnight

maybe the submited gallerys they would be posting might be from other tgp owners premoting their tgp ??

maybe in 4 to 5 years this might be the way things go

if ya think about how the adult internet would change because of this, It would be very far reaching

before anyone panics, this is just a what if fantasy thread

actuall I find this a very good idea, thugh I think how thinks are running atm it will not happen. everybody who runs a tgp or linklist must join this idea.

maybe it will have to be like your idea one day because of legal issues, maybe free access to adult related material will be prohibited...

just my thoughts I want to share with you all. time will show us

Robbo · 2005-01-25, 03:56 PM

I really have no doubt you could make a few bucks on the idea. I think what everyone wonders is "how much?". But it sounds like a great plan should the law decide to really clamp down on unprotected content!

I think it could even work in the current climate given real value to surfers and promoted right. Hell what have`nt we sold yet?!

amadman · 2005-01-25, 04:01 PM

I have no doubt that this would work. Especially if you catered to a very specific niche.

PayAsYouClick · 2005-01-25, 04:38 PM

Whether you choose to charge surfers a subscription-style price to view a section of your links, or charge him for each link he follows, the real power lies in what you do with him then.

Let's say the idea moves ahead a few steps, and you have TGPs charging surfers to view their links with PayAsYouClick accounts.

An increasing number of surfers are persuaded to get an account, so those surfers are hitting sites able to make a payment of up to $2 with one click on a payment link. No big decision, no worries about anonymity or scams etc, just click on the thumb and that 2 minute clip is yours for a dollar.

The rest of the industry won't just ignore this, nor will they reach for their lawyers, they'll move to take advantage of it. So the sponsors will start to build galleries with a few free clips like now, but links to a load more of their content priced at 20c a clips etc. This is irresitable for surfers. Its like a Las Vegas slot machine - every extra payment is so tiny, there's no reason to stop. That's how we get surfers spending $20 in an evening, never mind a month. Of course if the surfer really likes what he's found, he'll stop paying per-click and buy a full subscription.

But this is the important bit. The way our system is set up, the TGP owner or submitter will earn around half of everything their traffic spends on those sponsor sites.

The sponsor's happy because he's getting pre-filtered traffic that ready to spend. And the TGP owner is happy because by driving the surfers to the best sites, he's going to make a hefty percentage of everything that surfer spends.

This isn't a dream for us, this is what we've got going right now. We've got webmasters of all shapes and sizes buliding sites with videos, niche pictures etc, and converting traffic better than they did on subscriptions. And now, we've got sponsors building pay-per-click versions of their sites, having already tested the idea and found that it converts new surfers without reducing signups.

What we haven't yet got is the mainstream TGPs and Link Lists. I hope that by offering this as a model, you'll see that we've got something worth looking at.

Greenguy · 2005-01-25, 04:52 PM

It'll only take one sponsor to call a lawyer to put an end to it. I really don;t see how you can charge for access to someone else's site.

This issue is an old one - remember back when AVS sites were very popular? A lot of sponsors would not let you use their free content on AVS sites because you were selling access to their material.

Same thing applies here.

PayAsYouClick · 2005-01-25, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenguy

It'll only take one sponsor to call a lawyer to put an end to it. I really don;t see how you can charge for access to someone else's site.

This issue is an old one - remember back when AVS sites were very popular? A lot of sponsors would not let you use their free content on AVS sites because you were selling access to their material.

Same thing applies here.

In the case of the AVS's, they were charging for access to material they didn't own.

In this case, the sponsor's gallery remains freely available. You're charging the surfer for providing him with a link. You own the link. It's like selling a directory.

There's no legal issue, but of course you'd want to talk to the sponsors first and do it in a way that benefitted them, and would grow sustainably.

Robbo · 2005-01-25, 06:34 PM

Greenguy good point!

dareutwo · 2005-01-25, 10:27 PM

Just getting back into this biz, but here goes a knee jerk reaction -

1- Free porn won't go away, period, as of course this biz grew the internet.
2 - Sponsor(s) and their content has grown exponentially, a very very bad thing in my view.
3 - LL/TGP owners would like to get paid for the countless hours of reviews, costs of cheater script programming...

Tommy not knocking your idea, but just for a minute think of moving the left hand to right hand.
What IF??
LL/tgps required SPONSORS pay to get listed on your LL for promoting them?
Given a sliding scale fee (to be determined, PPC?), as some LL obviously can't produce hits like others.

Tommy - what would you charge BangBros to list a single link/gallery that will be seen by how many thousands, REGARDLESS of the other WM link codes??

If you're a sponsor, then you're a sponsor and you must be willing to forgo capital to promote your product. It's called Advertising Dollars.. quicken has a category for it.
If I link to a free site with your content or banners then I'm promoting YOUR product, not mine.
My product is MY Link List, my product is the ad views that I can deliver.

If Ford underwrites a series for Fox... do you think Ford would allow any other car company to advertise on this series??

Basically I'm saying that instead of surfers to pay, it might be time for Sponsors to Pay for results, like any other business model on the planet except, so far, the adult biz.

Would this be a pain in the ass for them? Hell yes. But I don't feel a damn thing for them I've been sending them free traffic for years.
If I send them 50khits through the galleries and my own traffic, that should be worth something.
(and in your case tommy, gg x ??)

Play this thought for a bit -

Hundreds/thousands of CCbill type, no investment sponsors go out of biz. (and chargebacks go away too)
Millions and millions of gallery pages no longer link to anything, oh well.
True big time sponsors would have to hire a full time - LL/tgp coordinator. (like a real biz would do)
Less Free content, less banned urls, easier workload for us.

You can't suck blood from a turnip, go for the deep pockects! (isn't that a lawyers creed or something)

Surfers, are surfers, and they always will be... don't charge them, ever.. (just keep your hook sharp)

Just my thoughts...

dareutwo · 2005-01-25, 10:40 PM

As a follow up -
Who ran through Millions and Millions in the past 18 months??
GG??
Tommy??
the Hun??
OR
Sponsors??
OR
Surfers????

Porn Meister · 2005-01-26, 12:07 PM

I was going to ask Karen if I could buy a submit pass with points. Either way you get paid, and it's a chance to get your traffic to their sites as well. You should contact them.

GenXer · 2005-01-26, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommy

people like pk worldsex and the hun could be multi millionares overnight

I am pretty sure the owners of pk, worldsex, AND the hun are already millionaires. Do you know how much they make in just ad revenue alone? Including affiliate payouts, the owners of those sites are already millionaires. I would bet money on that.

As far as charging surfers to access content that is not your own, truly and really is, copyright infringement and a number of other legal things. I mean...it's an interesting idea..but it's not a good one.

Linkster · 2005-01-26, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenXer

As far as charging surfers to access content that is not your own, truly and really is, copyright infringement and a number of other legal things. I mean...it's an interesting idea..but it's not a good one.

I disagree on the legal side as I know of plenty of major portals for usenet posts that require you to pay for their listings - you are not requiring them to pay for the content - you are collecting money for your work of putting the links together - cataloging them.
If you want to talk about copyright infringement - I would suggest looking at the cached results that Google and Yahooo serve from their servers - plain copies of your work - thats a little closer to being true infringement but still wouldnt hold up in court

GenXer · 2005-01-26, 01:41 PM

Even Greenguy said it, it just doesn't seem legal. Just my opinion and a few others. You have a point though, Linkster.

I suppose the only person who would REALLY know the answer is a lawyer with specialization in this sort of area.

RawAlex · 2005-01-26, 03:53 PM

Tommy, I think that google and don't really care what you list, as long as you list a variety. Smarter programs are using real URLs on their galleries, while others are still using "dailygallery.cig?gallery=20585" which isn't such a good idea.

For a TGP, I think that premade sponsor galleries are a great thing, to a point. When everyone has the exact same things listed, it is pointless.

Alex

Ann Omness · 2005-01-26, 08:11 PM

Most of us with well-established links lists have nice Google-rankings. It would have to hurt to put your list behind security.

Rocco · 2005-01-28, 09:35 AM

there are 3 different models to do this (i admit, i was thinking to do this with some of my sites in the past):

1. you charge for access to your linklist: this should not be a problem at all as submitters must agree to your tos anyway. the content and everything is hosted on the "free" site as normal. What you will get is very high quality traffic from submissions and the ll/tgp owner probably will loose a lot of traffic.

2. you keep your site as usual, but use a gateway between the link and the free site/gallery. here you charge for gallery access. this should not be a problem if you use a textlink. but it probably can be a problem if you are using thumb previews. However, what you will get is that the linklist will not loose as much traffic as in (1.) and you could use clever marketing like tgfind who let you see 3 samples and then asked for email (in 2001) or payment (after 2001). this is probably the sort of thing most of you are thinking of as a good model.

3. (not a real option) you load the content from your site or in frames like some tgps/lls do. this is a problem anyway whether surfers pay for access or not.

yes, this is what i consider the avs model.

the access to the galleries/free sites could be managed by each ll/tgp individually or by a 3rd party system, which would be 4rth party processing then (eg the system was using ccbill).

CLICK HERE TO ADD YOUR LL TO OUR LINKLIST SYSTEM

however, if established it would not have serious consequences for free porn.

jigg · 2005-01-28, 07:05 PM

This makes me think of an AVS.

The people who actually pay the fee are much more easier to upsell to because they've already pulled the card out and paid for porn

Useless · 2005-01-28, 07:30 PM

I have a silly question, as I often do. Have you thought out the recip link situation? Say Mr. Dingle enters a free site on the eternally free link-o-rama, on his scroll down the warning page he zooms in on the recip for a Scrote's Links, a non-free link list, and clicks-thru. Now he is confronted with something that is, for all intents and purposes, a paysite.

Wouldn't the recip for a link list which charges become considered a sponsor link out?

Also, shouldn't the link list then have to have an affiliate program to pay webmasters for bringing traffic to their sites?

What goes around, comes around.

2005-01-26, 06:29 PM	#7
Verbal Verbal prefers 56K Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 563	So is anyone gonna test this out? The pre-qualified traffic would definately be a marketers wet dream. It'd also be smart to get the sponsors onboard instead of hoping they're OK with it. Come up with some additional incentives for them, like feature their different paysites everywhere inside for a week/month, etc. __________________ Verbal

2005-01-25, 04:38 PM	#11
PayAsYouClick WHO IS FONZY!?! Don't they teach you anything at school? Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: UK Posts: 42	Whether you choose to charge surfers a subscription-style price to view a section of your links, or charge him for each link he follows, the real power lies in what you do with him then. Let's say the idea moves ahead a few steps, and you have TGPs charging surfers to view their links with PayAsYouClick accounts. An increasing number of surfers are persuaded to get an account, so those surfers are hitting sites able to make a payment of up to $2 with one click on a payment link. No big decision, no worries about anonymity or scams etc, just click on the thumb and that 2 minute clip is yours for a dollar. The rest of the industry won't just ignore this, nor will they reach for their lawyers, they'll move to take advantage of it. So the sponsors will start to build galleries with a few free clips like now, but links to a load more of their content priced at 20c a clips etc. This is irresitable for surfers. Its like a Las Vegas slot machine - every extra payment is so tiny, there's no reason to stop. That's how we get surfers spending $20 in an evening, never mind a month. Of course if the surfer really likes what he's found, he'll stop paying per-click and buy a full subscription. But this is the important bit. The way our system is set up, the TGP owner or submitter will earn around half of everything their traffic spends on those sponsor sites. The sponsor's happy because he's getting pre-filtered traffic that ready to spend. And the TGP owner is happy because by driving the surfers to the best sites, he's going to make a hefty percentage of everything that surfer spends. This isn't a dream for us, this is what we've got going right now. We've got webmasters of all shapes and sizes buliding sites with videos, niche pictures etc, and converting traffic better than they did on subscriptions. And now, we've got sponsors building pay-per-click versions of their sites, having already tested the idea and found that it converts new surfers without reducing signups. What we haven't yet got is the mainstream TGPs and Link Lists. I hope that by offering this as a model, you'll see that we've got something worth looking at. __________________ http://www.payasyouclick.com/adult info@payasyouclick.com

2005-01-25, 04:52 PM	#12
Greenguy The Original Greenguy (Est'd 1996) & AVN HOF Member - I Crop Pics For Thumbs In My Sleep Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Blasdell, NY (shithole suburb south of Buffalo) Posts: 41,929	It'll only take one sponsor to call a lawyer to put an end to it. I really don;t see how you can charge for access to someone else's site. This issue is an old one - remember back when AVS sites were very popular? A lot of sponsors would not let you use their free content on AVS sites because you were selling access to their material. Same thing applies here. __________________ Promote POV Porn Cash By Building & Submitting Galleries to the Porn Luv Network

2005-01-25, 10:27 PM	#15
dareutwo You can't disprove anything with evidence that doesn't exist Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: NW Minnesota - pop 865 +/- 1 Posts: 2,038	Just getting back into this biz, but here goes a knee jerk reaction - 1- Free porn won't go away, period, as of course this biz grew the internet. 2 - Sponsor(s) and their content has grown exponentially, a very very bad thing in my view. 3 - LL/TGP owners would like to get paid for the countless hours of reviews, costs of cheater script programming... Tommy not knocking your idea, but just for a minute think of moving the left hand to right hand. What IF?? LL/tgps required SPONSORS pay to get listed on your LL for promoting them? Given a sliding scale fee (to be determined, PPC?), as some LL obviously can't produce hits like others. Tommy - what would you charge BangBros to list a single link/gallery that will be seen by how many thousands, REGARDLESS of the other WM link codes?? If you're a sponsor, then you're a sponsor and you must be willing to forgo capital to promote your product. It's called Advertising Dollars.. quicken has a category for it. If I link to a free site with your content or banners then I'm promoting YOUR product, not mine. My product is MY Link List, my product is the ad views that I can deliver. If Ford underwrites a series for Fox... do you think Ford would allow any other car company to advertise on this series?? Basically I'm saying that instead of surfers to pay, it might be time for Sponsors to Pay for results, like any other business model on the planet except, so far, the adult biz. Would this be a pain in the ass for them? Hell yes. But I don't feel a damn thing for them I've been sending them free traffic for years. If I send them 50khits through the galleries and my own traffic, that should be worth something. (and in your case tommy, gg x ??) Play this thought for a bit - Hundreds/thousands of CCbill type, no investment sponsors go out of biz. (and chargebacks go away too) Millions and millions of gallery pages no longer link to anything, oh well. True big time sponsors would have to hire a full time - LL/tgp coordinator. (like a real biz would do) Less Free content, less banned urls, easier workload for us. You can't suck blood from a turnip, go for the deep pockects! (isn't that a lawyers creed or something) Surfers, are surfers, and they always will be... don't charge them, ever.. (just keep your hook sharp) Just my thoughts... __________________ This is me Mark's-Links

2005-01-25, 10:40 PM	#16
dareutwo You can't disprove anything with evidence that doesn't exist Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: NW Minnesota - pop 865 +/- 1 Posts: 2,038	As a follow up - Who ran through Millions and Millions in the past 18 months?? GG?? Tommy?? the Hun?? OR Sponsors?? OR Surfers???? __________________ This is me Mark's-Links

2005-01-25, 11:33 AM	#1
Robbo No matter how good you are at something, there's always about a million people better than you Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Greenguy County, NY Posts: 236	Then of course as a submitter you`d have to wonder about the benefit of being listed at a ll or tgp as such. Would it be like the internet that once surfers pay for access they believe everything else is or should be free? Therefore not being very productive or finding another place to surf after thier needs are not exactly met. Like prepaying to be presented a sponsor. I know I would hate to pay to be advertised to.

2005-01-25, 03:56 PM	#9
Robbo No matter how good you are at something, there's always about a million people better than you Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Greenguy County, NY Posts: 236	I really have no doubt you could make a few bucks on the idea. I think what everyone wonders is "how much?". But it sounds like a great plan should the law decide to really clamp down on unprotected content! I think it could even work in the current climate given real value to surfers and promoted right. Hell what have`nt we sold yet?!

2005-01-25, 04:01 PM	#10
amadman I've been mad for fucking years, absolutely years, been over the edge for yonks.... Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: padded room Posts: 861	I have no doubt that this would work. Especially if you catered to a very specific niche.

2005-01-25, 06:34 PM	#14
Robbo No matter how good you are at something, there's always about a million people better than you Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Greenguy County, NY Posts: 236	Greenguy good point!

2005-01-26, 12:07 PM	#17
Porn Meister Asleep at the switch? I wasn't asleep, I was drunk Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 214	I was going to ask Karen if I could buy a submit pass with points. Either way you get paid, and it's a chance to get your traffic to their sites as well. You should contact them. __________________ I like Pimproll.

2005-01-26, 01:41 PM	#20
GenXer Are you sure this is the Sci-Fi Convention? It's full of nerds! Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The U.S.A Posts: 267	Even Greenguy said it, it just doesn't seem legal. Just my opinion and a few others. You have a point though, Linkster. I suppose the only person who would REALLY know the answer is a lawyer with specialization in this sort of area. __________________ Top Adult Writing Services icq 375-089-597

2005-01-26, 03:53 PM	#21
RawAlex Took the hint. Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 5,597	Tommy, I think that google and don't really care what you list, as long as you list a variety. Smarter programs are using real URLs on their galleries, while others are still using "dailygallery.cig?gallery=20585" which isn't such a good idea. For a TGP, I think that premade sponsor galleries are a great thing, to a point. When everyone has the exact same things listed, it is pointless. Alex

2005-01-26, 08:11 PM	#22
Ann Omness If something goes wrong at the plant, blame the guy who can't speak English Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Michigan Posts: 308	Most of us with well-established links lists have nice Google-rankings. It would have to hurt to put your list behind security. __________________ Blue Wave Adult Links www.bluewavelinks.com/

2005-01-28, 09:35 AM	#23
Rocco www . * * . com Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,546	there are 3 different models to do this (i admit, i was thinking to do this with some of my sites in the past): 1. you charge for access to your linklist: this should not be a problem at all as submitters must agree to your tos anyway. the content and everything is hosted on the "free" site as normal. What you will get is very high quality traffic from submissions and the ll/tgp owner probably will loose a lot of traffic. 2. you keep your site as usual, but use a gateway between the link and the free site/gallery. here you charge for gallery access. this should not be a problem if you use a textlink. but it probably can be a problem if you are using thumb previews. However, what you will get is that the linklist will not loose as much traffic as in (1.) and you could use clever marketing like tgfind who let you see 3 samples and then asked for email (in 2001) or payment (after 2001). this is probably the sort of thing most of you are thinking of as a good model. 3. (not a real option) you load the content from your site or in frames like some tgps/lls do. this is a problem anyway whether surfers pay for access or not. yes, this is what i consider the avs model. the access to the galleries/free sites could be managed by each ll/tgp individually or by a 3rd party system, which would be 4rth party processing then (eg the system was using ccbill). CLICK HERE TO ADD YOUR LL TO OUR LINKLIST SYSTEM however, if established it would not have serious consequences for free porn. __________________ Sex and Porn Submit your FreeSites here

2005-01-28, 07:05 PM	#24
jigg Rock stars ... is there anything they don't know? Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 10	This makes me think of an AVS. The people who actually pay the fee are much more easier to upsell to because they've already pulled the card out and paid for porn __________________ Please Re-Read The Rules For Sig Files

2005-01-28, 07:30 PM	#25
Useless Certified Nice Person Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Dirty Undies, NY Posts: 11,268	I have a silly question, as I often do. Have you thought out the recip link situation? Say Mr. Dingle enters a free site on the eternally free link-o-rama, on his scroll down the warning page he zooms in on the recip for a Scrote's Links, a non-free link list, and clicks-thru. Now he is confronted with something that is, for all intents and purposes, a paysite. Wouldn't the recip for a link list which charges become considered a sponsor link out? Also, shouldn't the link list then have to have an affiliate program to pay webmasters for bringing traffic to their sites? What goes around, comes around. __________________ Click here to purchase a bridge I'm selling.