Katrina aftermath - what the fuck???

[Linkster]

Bill - nola.com has about the best news that seems to be accurate - they are the website of the Times-Picuyane (the NO newspaper) - there is also a small blog being run by the guys at DirecNic downtown at mgno.com - kinda isolated but they do have a birds eye view of the business district

[Bill]

Originally Posted by CaptainJSparrow

Gotta tell ya...the more I hear, I'm kinda embarrassed about our governor. I hear that the President gave her two options, and she told him she needed 24 hours to think about it. Apparently, she is having problems making decisions.

You have heard her explantion, haven't you? She says that the president wanted her to hand over all authority for the area, possibly for the whole state. to the federal government, and I believe allow them to declare martial law.

She says she didn't believe it was in the best interests of the State of Louisiana to hand over the state to the federal government, and that she didn't want martial law to be declared.

There apparantly is a lot of backstory - about her thinking this was a CYA move by the pres, who could then ride in as a conquering hero and blame the state entirely for the delay.

There are two sides to every story.

[Linkster]

First off - lets get something straight as there has been a lot of misuse of terms here:
Martial Law isnt something a local government can request - it can be done by the president or recommended by his local area commander -
http://www.washingtonwatchdog.org/do...501.html#501.4

Secondly - the military cannot act as law enforcement by law in the US - unless congress specifically authorizes it under the Posse Comitatus Act:
http://www.nwc.navy.mil/library/3Pub...ibpossecom.htm

That said - A declaration of a "state of emergency" was made by the Governer prior to the hurricane coming ashore - that gave the President power to mobilize FEMA and the Coast Guard to assist locals

The real issue here is that the civilian population of this country thinks that the all mighty US government can just march in and do what it needs to do to help - by law it is specifically prohibited from doing just that - we fucking fought a civil war 150 years ago because of those laws - to prevent the government from telling states how to run their business - I know everybody thinks the issue was slavery - it wasnt - read the real history sometime.

I hate that sometimes we think that they should help out and they have even overstepped their bounds in many cases (like Fla hurricanes) - but those cases all used Natl Guard - which in this case took a few days to mobilize since there werent any available except for the soldiers in Miss - who were a little busy with their own problems

[Bill]

I'm not sure I'm understanding your point, Linkster.

Would you elaborate?

I'm willing to stipulate that the Governor and the Mayor were incompetent. It's fine with me if Louisianans want to string them up. A people gets the government it deserves.

But, this storyline of the Governor blocking the Presidents offer of help has been talked about quite a bit, and as I said, there is supposedly more to the story than the damning headlines rolling across the screen two to four days ago.

If you want to blame Lousianans, the Louisiana Democrats, and the local responders, that's fine with me.

If you think FEMA and the Bush administration did a fine job, well, I think you are bug fucking nuts, and I'm wondering what the fuck you saw in person that wasn't on my TV screen.

[Bill]

Here is the Washington Post article that was the original source to the blogosphere discussions:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...090301680.html

Note the source of my statement about "martial law". I knew that there was a concern about declaring martial law that was part of the debate, altho I didn't remember the particulars clearly:

"Louisiana officials rejected the request after talks throughout the night, concerned that such a move would be comparable to a federal declaration of martial law."

This is the part of the article that is relevant to this issue:

"Behind the scenes, a power struggle emerged, as federal officials tried to wrest authority from Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco (D). Shortly before midnight Friday, the Bush administration sent her a proposed legal memorandum asking her to request a federal takeover of the evacuation of New Orleans, a source within the state's emergency operations center said Saturday.

The administration sought unified control over all local police and state National Guard units reporting to the governor. Louisiana officials rejected the request after talks throughout the night, concerned that such a move would be comparable to a federal declaration of martial law. Some officials in the state suspected a political motive behind the request. "Quite frankly, if they'd been able to pull off taking it away from the locals, they then could have blamed everything on the locals," said the source, who does not have the authority to speak publicly.

A senior administration official said that Bush has clear legal authority to federalize National Guard units to quell civil disturbances under the Insurrection Act and will continue to try to unify the chains of command that are split among the president, the Louisiana governor and the New Orleans mayor.

Louisiana did not reach out to a multi-state mutual aid compact for assistance until Wednesday, three state and federal officials said. As of Saturday, Blanco still had not declared a state of emergency, the senior Bush official said.

"The federal government stands ready to work with state and local officials to secure New Orleans and the state of Louisiana," White House spokesman Dan Bartlett said. "The president will not let any form of bureaucracy get in the way of protecting the citizens of Louisiana."

Blanco made two moves Saturday that protected her independence from the federal government: She created a philanthropic fund for the state's victims and hired James Lee Witt, Federal Emergency Management Agency director in the Clinton administration, to advise her on the relief effort."

[Linkster]

First off Bill - that article has quite a few false statements in it - I guess the one that stands out is that the state of emergency wasnt declared "as of Saturday" - this is misinformation being promulgated through the Bush press aides - she did declare a state of emergency at 5 pm on Friday - the rest can also be disproven with actual statements that were put out on publicly broadcast tv statements in New Orleans.
This writer BTW is rewriting an article that came out on a blog written by a guy in Florida who made the whole thing up.

As far as the state not wanting aid - that is from what Im seeing not a correct statement either - according to news reports before the storm hit when asked, the governor stated she had not been in contact with the white house

Overall - I am trying to avoid most of the blame stuff because there is so much BS being put out (some even by reknowned journalists that arent checking their stories) and the spin machine is in full force int he white house obviously - since Bush is the one dropping in the polls by a long shot.
As far as local politics - the mayor issued a mandatory evacuation on Sunday morning - whether any large city could really evacuate all of its people in 24 hours is debatable - I tend to think its impossible - and anyone that thinks that it really could have been done any better with that timeframe should be in that position instead - but even if you had 1000 busses waiting, airplanes ready, troop transports standing by in the roads of New Orleans, the same people that didnt leave before still wouldnt have left - they DIDNT WANT TO! and still dont!


As far as your statement about FEMA and their response - that is a normal response from FEMA under the homeland security umbrella - that is why every former director of FEMA has said that the setup now is stupid - secondly - a lot of people are hammering the director for ineptness - which may be true - but its not his job to do immediate response - that responsibility is with the 6th district of FEMA located in Texas - and they did respond per their plan - as did numerous other governmental agencies (ie FBI, ATF etc who were in the city as soon as the storm was over) - but they were doing what they are supposed to do per their plans - which is to protect government interests in the city ONLY! That is the fault associated with the new Homeland security department - it places all of the initial "disaster recovery" on local fire depts, police and sheriff depts - the amount of money they were given to prepare for response was incredible - of course most departments just bought new command busses, coffee dispensers etc. FEMA also provided locals with money to train for these type of disasters, as FEMA was transferring the "job"

I hope you understand that I dont like what I see - but being my age and having been through riots, bombings and other amazing things I saw as a teen (like seeing Washington DC on fire) - and watching the transfer of power under the homeland security department and knowing what would happen with an additional layer of red tape - I fully expected this to happen - just didnt think it would happen so close to home

[Linkster]

BTW Bill - having been to so many Mardi Gras events - in the back of my mind I still have spinning this feeling of something just not being kosher - this police dept and the local sheriffs, hwy patrol etc, every year, can control 1.5 million drunks partying, killing each other raping, looting, you name it - and do one fantastic job of it with never a complaint or issue - and yet a little storm that blows some water into the city comes along and they go ballistic? Something smells

[Linkster]

OK - one more little post LOL
Here is what Region 6 of FEMA did on AUG 30 - which is exactly by the book and exactly the way FEMA is set up now:
http://www.fema.gov/news/regionnews.fema?region=6

[CaptainJSparrow]

Hey Bill, that local TV station's website is at:

http://wafb.com/

You know, I'm not much into politics as I stated earlier. My guess is that the governor is incompetant and that she didn't want to give up power to the federal government because she thought that she'd never win another election if she did. Unfortunately for her, she probably won't anyway.

Having 1 central authority that controls all of the forces that you mentioned earlier is probably a good idea. Too many chiefs usually means that there is alot of arguing and not enough results. That said the federal government is such a behemoth that it would be amazing if they truly accomplished anything any faster than what is currently being accomplished.

I still say that our contra-flow worked exceptionally well and that the majority of people that wanted to get out, got out.

We'll know more about the shootings and looting over the next week or so. I will keep ya'll informed when I hear things that are confirmed...such as when my friends in the reserves or police departments tell me things that they've seen first hand.

Good night all.

[furrygirl]

Originally Posted by Linkster

BTW Bill - having been to so many Mardi Gras events - in the back of my mind I still have spinning this feeling of something just not being kosher - this police dept and the local sheriffs, hwy patrol etc, every year, can control 1.5 million drunks partying, killing each other raping, looting, you name it - and do one fantastic job of it with never a complaint or issue - and yet a little storm that blows some water into the city comes along and they go ballistic? Something smells

Wait, are you saying that you are skeptical of reports of police misbehavior because they never had many problems you could see during Mardi Gras?

The big difference between the two being that one is a bunch of better-off partiers, one is a bunch of poor, starving, sick people who were left to die. I'm not saying that shooting at rescuers helps anyone, but I do completely understand where people are coming from with the anger and frustration.

Plus, are there any real, confirmed reports of this mass raping and cop-shooting I keep hearing rumors of?


And, on another note, I'm still looking to find someone down there accepting volunteers. And new leads from anyone? I'm thinking of just flying down there with a backback full of Clif Bars and bug spray and seeing what I can do.

[Linkster]

Originally Posted by furrygirl

Wait, are you saying that you are skeptical of reports of police misbehavior because they never had many problems you could see during Mardi Gras?

The big difference between the two being that one is a bunch of better-off partiers, one is a bunch of poor, starving, sick people who were left to die. I'm not saying that shooting at rescuers helps anyone, but I do completely understand where people are coming from with the anger and frustration.

Plus, are there any real, confirmed reports of this mass raping and cop-shooting I keep hearing rumors of?

I dont think I was trying to say I was skeptical about the police mis-behaviour, more I think I am concerned with the second part - that so far there hasnt been one confirmed report of the shootings and rapes - other than a few heresay reports that the media keeps blowing up - and unfortunately seems to dominate the news instead of reporters doing their job and getting facts (something that they seem to have forgotton over the years)

I tend to believe that there is still a group of old gang members that have run several neighborhoods for some time, that are still there trying to salvage their turf - and may be taking potshots at cops. It just amazes me though that the media has twisted so many stories - the one I keep thinking about is the "police turn into looters and ransack Walmart" story. Here is a whole precinct of cops that have lost their headquarters, have no communication with the chief of police, see looters robbing walmart, shoo them away, and set up their HQ in Walmart - the news media reports it as police looting - but when you talk to the captain of that precinct he is pretty adamant that he was just trying to find a dry place to he could group his cops into one place and set up a central dry location. Just one example of the news media taking a story from an evacuee and turning it into fact - fortunately one news group actually went out to the Walmart and interviewed the captain of police and he basically told the reporter to F*** off when asked about his cops being looters.

[Linkster]

Originally Posted by furrygirl

one is a bunch of poor, starving, sick people who were left to die. I'm not saying that shooting at rescuers helps anyone, but I do completely understand where people are coming from with the anger and frustration..

No one down there was "left to die" - the days before the storm came in the police were driving through every neighborhood with loudspeakers telling people to get out and where they could get busses - and to use the superdome as a last resort shelter. Having lived (temporarily) in one of the poorest neighborhoods down there I can tell you that everyone has a TV and would have seen the mayor and governor two days before the storm telling them to get out, and the only anger they have is when the cops try to help them - Im not totally heartless - I just know that 99% of the people that wouldnt leave are the ones that are still there refusing to leave and hiding out in the projects.

As far as wanting to help out I know the Red Cross is still taking volunteers - they train you for an hour and then put you out there helping people - although I dont think flying in would be a viable option yet

[Kinky]

Originally Posted by Linkster

It just amazes me though that the media has twisted so many stories - the one I keep thinking about is the "police turn into looters and ransack Walmart" story. Here is a whole precinct of cops that have lost their headquarters, have no communication with the chief of police, see looters robbing walmart, shoo them away, and set up their HQ in Walmart - the news media reports it as police looting - but when you talk to the captain of that precinct he is pretty adamant that he was just trying to find a dry place to he could group his cops into one place and set up a central dry location. Just one example of the news media taking a story from an evacuee and turning it into fact - fortunately one news group actually went out to the Walmart and interviewed the captain of police and he basically told the reporter to F*** off when asked about his cops being looters.

some police were looting

HERE IS THE VIDEO

[Lemmy]

Originally Posted by kinky

some police were looting

HERE IS THE VIDEO

That's hilarious...and disturbing.

[Cleo]

God Outdoes Terrorists Yet Again
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/40305/

[docholly]

With all due respect Linkster, one thing i do have to take exception to is this:

No one down there was "left to die"

I think at least 30 people would take exception to that:

At least 30 found in Nursing Home

..quite frankly who is to blame or what kind of shoes Condi was buying, or what bunker was Cheney hiding in, or what was done is trivial at this time.. those who think GWB did a GREAT job will continue to think so and try to 'blame' everyone else.. and those of us who think he's destroying 200+ years of democracy will just use this to bolster our position.

Let's just hope for the next 6-9 months we have no other disasters anywhere else in the country that require immediate action because it might take over 2-3 weeks just to find the National Guard.

[Surfn]

Originally Posted by kinky

some police were looting

HERE IS THE VIDEO

That is disturbing on so many levels

[Dr Bizzaro]

Who said Bush cut his vacation 2 days short due to the Katrina?

[Ramster]

Bush is embarrassing.

A great country being led by such a self centered idiot.

[docholly]

Originally Posted by Dr Bizzaro

Who said Bush cut his vacation 2 days short due to the Katrina?

something consistant about that elite club that includes Nero fiddling, Cake eating Marie Antoinette and George reading er fishing..

[Chop Smith]

Can ya'll solve the plight of the male plecia nearctica?

[Linkster]

Chop - nahhh - youll just have to keep buying those nets for the front grill

As far as looting cops - looks like fun! - seems the guys that were doing it were allowing the other looters to do it as well?

DocHolly - I would guess there are exceptions to everything - and in that case I think the blame would be right on that nursing home staff - but dont get me wrong by my posts - I sure dont support Bush or even any part of the government - but I do think that a little reality needs to be interjected when the press is making up stories to rile up people. I seriously just watched the police chief of New Orleans with a bunch of his partners in FEMA and others announce that they would NOT be using force to evacuated anyone - and this was echoed by the city attorney.
Not 5 minutes later the news media was announcing that the New Orleans police and Natl Guard are using force to evacuate people at gunpoint - like I said - its the stories they make up to sensationalize this whole thing for ratings - and it sucks

[Surfn]

Originally Posted by Linkster

...its the stories they make up to sensationalize this whole thing for ratings - and it sucks

It's all about the money. The more sensational they get the higher their ratings. The high their ratings the more they charge advertisers. An endless loop of greed at the top.

[Theproofhouse]

Don't know about "stories made up"
But all reporting from tv stations around the world, has turned out to be accurate, and the truth.

[Linkster]

Theproofhouse - Im assuming you are talking about what you are seeing in GB - which for some reason actually seems to be very accurate reporting at least on BBC - I think what you are missing is the local stations here and the cable news networks that are making up stories to increase their rankings in sensationalism - its a sad fact that we in the US have to sift through to find some semblence of truth