2257 regs published in full

[WolfTexas]

Originally Posted by Wenchy

I've been screaming for years that giving away free hardcore porn was tantamount to shooting ourselves in the foot. Furthermore, I'm also an advocate of text over banners whenever, wherever, and as often as possible. I have absolutely no doubt that softcore content providers will be coming out of the woodwork in the very near future which will provide us with "safe" and "compliant" filler for our pages. Sponsors will also begin creating "2257 compliant" ad tools, merely to save themselves the agony of mountains of paperwork.

If we're smart we can use this whole stinking mess to our advantage. "Hey, Joe Surfer... you want hardcore? Your freeloading days are over, pallie... too bad, so sad. Cough up the green or do without!" We could all see a HUGE jump in revenues if we're smart enough to seize the opportunity in front of us.

Trust me... anybody who knows me will tell you I'm certainly no Pollyanna and I realize there are still questions about what is deemed "obscene" and whether or not "censored" pictures fall into that category, but things are what they are and I for one am open to exploring alternatives that will keep me in business for a long time to come. If we are forced to change, surfers will be forced to change with us and that could be a good thing IMHO.

(Pardon the long post... I'm working a ton and a half of overtime lately and I don't have the luxury of posting my thoughts one at a time! )

Very good point. Agreed! This is going to shake up the industry and possibly put some legitimacy on some of the business. It will kill our site, because we jumped in at the wrong time and have no capital built up to support the process, but for those of our friends that have been in business a while with the resources to follow through, it will be an astounding benefit.

What saddens me is that there won't be the outlet for people with sexual desires to exhibit. Business is fine, but self expression is now hindered. Oh well. Such is life in modern Christian dominated America.

I guess our class system is going to continue to be built along religious lines, and politics is the avenue. So much for separation of church and State.

Those that continue in the industry, be warned. Our religiously based extreme rightwing government is fast approaching a time when webmasters, models and affiliated parties will all be prosecuted as sex offenders. Then all the overly inclusive generalities mentioned here and everywhere else about child molesters and pedophiles will incorporate not just those with definitive problems in making good judgements (true molesters and pedophiles), but also legitimate (albeit illegitimate in the eyes of Jonny Gov) business people who will have to register as sex offenders and suffer the lifelong abuse of not being able to provide for themselves or families because our beloved government has been put in place to legislate morality at the expense of personal safety and decency.

As a further explanation, please remember, that not all sex offenders are currently people that abduct or molest children, but sometimes people that are in a consentual relationship (even some without proven sexual activity) where someone got mad and decided to prosecute for rape or a similar, perhaps even legitimate, story, that get lumped in and ostricized as being dangers to society.

We, too, as industry "personnel" could be lumped into this group if our current administration and legislative bodies continue down this road. The ACLU, et al, haven't aided in stemming this tide as much as was once the case. And this is due in large part to the DOJ or similar bodies "shoring up" policies that will benefit their theocratic agendas in the name of either getting re-elected or proving their "worth" to task of their job.

Protestant America is slowly reverting to the age of the Crusades, and we're looking down the barrel of the gun. Be careful how you proceed!

For those of you with nothing to lose, and everything to gain, I applaud your decision to perservere, but if the revisions to 2257 don't get derailed, we won't be part of the new success. We're too small, and too remote to avoid the disaster of being prosecuted for the many things that this Pandora's box is bound to impose on the industry. We won't risk it.

In this case, I am not bitter, but it is growing more and more apparent, that in the "modern America" the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

Wolf.

PS...in most states, we've all done something that can be construed as a sex offense. Have you ever leared at anyone without their knowledge (underage or not) and thought illicit or lacivious thoughts? That's a sex offense in at least half the states of our country. Beware the thought police!

[RawAlex]

As I mentioned elsewhere, the May23rd edition of Business Week had a very interesting article regarding the evangelistic christians in the south, how they have propped up Bush in the last election, and how they now want to get paid back bigtime. Most of these groups (names like Orsteen, cerflo dollar and others) run mega churches, often preaching to tens of thousands of people each week. They have wide reaching television programs (Orsteen claims 7 million viewers a week) and the have best selling books. Their goal is a literal interpretation of the bible as directly what god said, and that makes porn a big no-no.

Their stated goal is to get enough seats in the senate to be able to get past the fillibuster, so they can install as many hyper conservative judges as possible into the federal courts - including 2 or even 3 potential supreme court seats in the next few years.

It would take probably 20 - 30 years to undo the damage this would cause.

The crusade isn't against us directly. It's against all things "non christian" in america, all the things they see as bad. We are but one of those things.

Alex

[ArtWilliams]

Originally Posted by guitar riff

Also with thumbtgp's i bet ya will see alot of them just have faces now .

Also if you didnt know it already but all .com domains are governed by the laws in the state of Georgia so ? is ok say ya live in germany and ya have a .com domain will this affect that certain site I mean since they wont be able to prosecute the offenders for non record keeping can it get yanked off line or ???

Is this true? I would be interested in a URL if you have one. I thought that all domain names were the property of ICANN and we has holders of the names have an exclusive right to use them. ICANN is a international private/public partnership according to my research. This is not to be confused with the contract you have with the company from which you bought the domain and the state of the contract listed in the terms of service or user agreement.

More info if you have it please. Thanks.

-- Art

[Qon]

ok, lemme clarify once more.

business A is incorporated & maintains a business office in the US for accounting & collection purposes. business A does most of its production and work (online & offline) at another office not in the continental US. business A maintains all its records at its PRIMARY place of business overseas (us company operating with permission in a foreign country)

business B is incorporated & maintains a biz office in the continental US AND does most of its production & work (online & offline) at that very office in the US. biz B maintains all records at that office as required by the regs.

now, the problem lies in inspection where they may find some sort of discrepancy or violation. which biz do you think they are more likely to attempt to prosecute & do an inspection on? no one is breaking the law, both businesses are complying, its just less likely they will be going out of the continental US to conduct an inspection as that would involve money, time & jurisdictional issues.

this however is NOT feasible for the majority of invidividuals who are in the online adult biz as a "side job" because most cats have no idea how to live in another country nor would they want to. but it certainly looks like an option. the only way they could force you to produce documents in court is if there is some question of a model's age that would convince a judge to compell the company to produce them. if you aren't fuckin with "teen" shit, that won't happen.

talk to your attorney, but i do think i'm correct (i've already sent this info to mine to be sure).



..

[WolfTexas]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

The crusade isn't against us directly. It's against all things "non christian" in america, all the things they see as bad. We are but one of those things.

Alex

Dually noted, and agreed. This is perhaps the widest sweeping step towards Christian National Socialism that has ever been seen. What is going on isn't genocide such as Nazi Germany in the early to mid 1900's, but instead a Theocide to generate the Christian homeland.

Your mention of being paid back is true. And they found the perfect fall guy for the job. President Bush. He's seeing his job idealistically, and not with malice in his mind (he's not that smart). What we all need to be aware of, is the OTHER elected officials and appointed members to the legal and governmental systems of our country.

I used to vote republican nationally, and largely democrat locally. My sense for fair play has definitely garnered a needed overturn or our populated rightwing bodies and return to a middle ground where, those of us with extreme liberal views and those of us with extreme conservative views are moderated with a sense of fair play. Ahhh, utopian thought. How simpleminded of me, eh?

Wolf.

[SexVideoContent]

Originally Posted by Wenchy

If we're smart we can use this whole stinking mess to our advantage. "Hey, Joe Surfer... you want hardcore? Your freeloading days are over, pallie... too bad, so sad. Cough up the green or do without!" We could all see a HUGE jump in revenues if we're smart enough to seize the opportunity in front of us.

Trust me... anybody who knows me will tell you I'm certainly no Pollyanna and I realize there are still questions about what is deemed "obscene" and whether or not "censored" pictures fall into that category, but things are what they are and I for one am open to exploring alternatives that will keep me in business for a long time to come. If we are forced to change, surfers will be forced to change with us and that could be a good thing IMHO.

I think you're absolutely right for US based webmasters and US based paysites.

However I also think that the majority of TGP submitters are not based in the US and this will probably not affect them in the slightest. When you also consider that some of the biggest paysites are foreign based and have no need to comply with 2257 or any US laws for that matter, this is probably not going to affect the availability of hardcore and free hardcore at all. TGP owners (the biggest of which are all foreign based anyway) will probably start accepting more galleries hardcore galleries from foreigners instead of the softcore from the US.

I sincerely hope I'm wrong about that, but it seems like a good possibility.

Actually since foreign companies will now have a bigger share of the profits, there could very well be a large increase in the number of hardcore websites run by foreign companies, and since they will not be as concerned about US obscenity laws, there might very well be a huge increase in the number of extreme hardcore sites available on the foreign market.

If Bush thought the internet was 'dirty' now just wait until he sees what giving an advantage to countries that permit bestiality and such does.

[RawAlex]

damnq, I agree with you - except for one little thing:

Company "a" with the accounting & collection office in the US is collecting for what? Porn site access? They are the commercial part of selling those websites. They are entered into a commercial agreement or conspiracy (I love that word in a ruling) to sell porn. While I am not real sure on this, it makes them part of the commericization and as a result, they may have to have records.

You need to watch this law closely, it is written backwards - it state exception rather than who is included. Unless you specifically find an exclusion that coveres you 100%, then you are included.

I don't disagree with you, but I think it is much closer to the edge than you think.

Alex

[SexVideoContent]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

They have wide reaching television programs (Orsteen claims 7 million viewers a week) and the have best selling books. Their goal is a literal interpretation of the bible as directly what god said, and that makes porn a big no-no.

This is exactly why I have mentioned (on another board) the possibilty of using some ad space on TGP's and LL's as a news forum. Between only a few of the big players in this industry they have the ability to make a headline or two reach more people in one day than most newspapers and some large television networks. This industry has concerns about its freedoms, why not use this to an advantage? Forget for a second the thought of using every last pixel to advertise something with a ref code and instead use a very small portion of TGP's and LL's as a legitimate source of news to communicate to the masses issues that may affect their freedoms.

This not only would give a voice to people in this industry but would also further help protect adult websites as a legitimate source of news deserving of the protection of free speech.

And people might pay attention to headlines about their rights being violated if they see a pair of tits next to the story

[RawAlex]

... and finally this:

the revisions and "administrative rule clarifications" of USC 18 section 2256 and 2257 are significant parts of your business. They have repercussions for you and your business that can greatly affect your life, not just you bank account. You could spend up to 10 years in a federal butt slammin' prison. You could end up with all of your assets, business and person, seized as evidence and locked up for years before you see the end of it.

You could be labeled as a CP provider, even if you think all your models are over 18. Think of the headline "Bob can't prove model age, feds shut down site" followed by a nice article about how it is likely some of your models were underage or using fake ID, or how you might helped them with fake ID, etc.

There is some potential you could become a registered sex offender.

Consult a lawyer, one that is versed in 2257 and the adult industry. Don't trust the lawyer down the street unless they have spent time on the subject. There is 15 years of history in this law, it isn't something you can pickup overnight and understand. Don't base your business on "software solutions" or "offshore hideouts" that people are offering without first getting a good and vlaid legal opinion about what it all means.

For individual webmasters, cam girls, and others... sorry, but in plain terms, sucks to be you right now. You are left with a few very poor choices, most of which involve revealing your home address, full name, and other materials to the public at large. I know that for many of you, this represents a hardship so high, that you are likely to leave the business or completely change the way you do business, which in the end will remove either the fun and/or profit you have been making in the past. The government is saying to you "either in the pool or out of the pool, no just dipping your toe in the water". For that, I am truly sorry, and I am sad for you.

I am sad that I am already getting emails, PMs, and ICQs from people either selling sites or telling me that stuff will go 404. Upheaval is not good for business, and people are getting hurt. It sucks in a most major way.

Chatboards, discussion groups, and such are a great way to share the pain and share the results of discussions with lawyers and others. But at the end of the day, the only sound (and bankable) advice will come straight from a lawyer, not anyone posting on a board. While I am confident that I understand the new 2257 rules fairly well, my answers are all IMHO stuff and not something to make your business decisions from. this is a great place to share so much, but your decisions must be based on facts, not rumors.

Careful out there!

Alex

[Tommy]

I would like to point out to everybody here that we owe Raw Alex a huge thank you, and a huge favor

he has spent a lot of time and effort to help us out by anwsering questions and by reading and I am sure rereading the new laws

[PhoneMistress]

Thank you, Alex. I have been reading bits and pieces on all of the boards and rarely do I post. I must say that your comments have been greatly appreciated.

[cellinis]

Tommy,
I second that mate! Alex has really worked a lot on this for almost everyone else. (If I were a girl, I'd give you a big hug... but considering I ain't, it just might be contrued as homosexuality that in Christian America might label both of us heretics...) damn I am blabbing... going over and making inventory of free sites and galleries and other things seems to be getting to my head lol.

I am still unclear how they can apply the law backwards when the changed law only comes into effect June 23 2005. This just can't be legal!

[rollergirl]

I was wondering and it was mentioned earlier, is this retroactive in that images created after June 23 are under this revision. I can abide reasonably with new content, but retroactive seems unconstitutional. Things that were fine under the old version should not be problems under the revison. Is there any clarification on this??

[Toby]

Katie, this includes anything produced after July 3, 1995

[SexVideoContent]

Originally Posted by rollergirl

I was wondering and it was mentioned earlier, is this retroactive in that images created after June 23 are under this revision. I can abide reasonably with new content, but retroactive seems unconstitutional. Things that were fine under the old version should not be problems under the revison. Is there any clarification on this??

I think the arguement they're going to make is that every time an image appears on someone's monitor, it is at that moment being 'republished' and subject to the new regs. So it doesn't really matter when it was uploaded to the server initially according to them.

[abe]

Hey Alex. Tommy is right. You're doing a great job here. It's much appreciated

[Linkster]

I guess the only real question I have in the back of my mind right now - I tend to think of Google and a thumb tgp as the same thing - as I never touch the thumbs - its all done by script when the submitter is submitting - seems that would be the exact same thing the Googleimage bot is doing
More importantly is the question of the Google/Yahoo/Archive.org caches of pages - I think these would have a bunch more implications than the thumb tgps as they are actually (although again by machine) storing copies of pages including images and serving those images from their servers - sounds like secondary publisher to me but then Im not a lawyer.

[cd34]

Another attorney representing three of my clients:

Larry Walters:
http://www.firstamendment.com/

[cellinis]

Hey Linkster
You can be sure they will not be affected. Before they go down for 2257, they should be indicted on copyright infringement. Storing (read Stealing) my content, publishing it on their own servers, without my explicit permission, and then selling it (as internet archives)... I can rant on but this is besides the point.
My lawyer says new 2257 can not be applicable to content produced/published before the changes in the laws were made. But again, it is just one legal opinion and there will be many other that will follow.
Retroactive application of law is both illogical and illegal in most parts of the world... take an analogy that comes to my mind. Age of marriage today, 18 years. Age of marriage a 100 years ago, 14 (or 16, I can't remember). Somebody go tell my grandpa he is a bastard lol You better be wearing a Kevlar jacket!
But the issue will only be clarified after a couple of court decisions... so we can only try and comply and then hope for the best. I know I can't fully comply with the new rules but well...

[pornrex]

Originally Posted by Tommy

I would like to point out to everybody here that we owe Raw Alex a huge thank you, and a huge favor

he has spent a lot of time and effort to help us out by anwsering questions and by reading and I am sure rereading the new laws

Thanks Raw Alex...in this troubled sea of beaurocratic garbage, you have indeed been a beacon - at least to me.

[rollergirl]

Originally Posted by Toby

Katie, this includes anything produced after July 3, 1995

Thank you

Cleaning house, I have so many content providers that won't give me the docs I need. Nice! One told me they were in a box in his garage and it would take too long to find them for me. (That was last summer when I started getting my docs in order).

Sponsor content.. don't see us getting the docs for that either. Sigh

[Boogie]

Once again, I'm not entirely sure why we need docs as affilates of these programs.

I think a strong case can be made that says

The photographer is the primary publisher
Nastydollars is the secondary publisher

I am the small reseller similar to a news stand that sells the finished article.

Or is that too big of a stretch?

[RawAlex]

One last important note: This is not a new law, this is not a new act of congress. It might look like it, but in reality it is some sort of administrative clarification. That too is subject to a previous court decision shooting it down, but that is another issue.

As a result, this is a law that has an effective date of July 3rd, 1995. You didn't know it but you may have been breaking the law for 10 years.

Seriously. Ask a laywer.

Alex

[Qon]

thanks for the replies alex... i just wanted to point it out for discussion but i will definitely see what my attorney thinks... i forwarded the full document to her & will of course get her opinion on what i asking. good luck everyone!



...

[SirMoby]

Originally Posted by Tommy

I would like to point out to everybody here that we owe Raw Alex a huge thank you, and a huge favor

he has spent a lot of time and effort to help us out by anwsering questions and by reading and I am sure rereading the new laws

Sometimes we forget the most obvious things and the fact thta RawAlex deserves a big thank you (maybe even donations) is obvious.

Thank you RawAlex. Thank you Tommy for reminded me.