Content question: SSNs on model releases

[furrygirl]

On the model release I have all of my models sign, which was written by a lawyer, one of the fields is their social security number. I have a new interested girl (who is on other sites and I know is a "legit" model) who does not want to use her SSN, and says she has two valid IDs without her SSN. Since I doubt I'll be paying her more than $600 a year, is there an actual good reason to insist on SSNs or SINs on model releases?

[Torn Rose]

None at all.

I refuse to give out my SSN, if anything is needed I have a tax ID #, so if you insist on having her SSN tell her to get a Tax ID.

[Jim]

Originally Posted by Torn

None at all.

I refuse to give out my SSN, if anything is needed I have a tax ID #, so if you insist on having her SSN tell her to get a Tax ID.

Most times, when someone asks me for my ssn, I ask them, "Do you know it is illegal to use a ssn for anything other than Social Security business?" It's an old law on the books so we, US Citizens were never known as numbers. Somehow it went ignored. Most times, you don't have to give your ssn but they don't have to give you the service you are looking for

[Cleo]

If you pay someone out of your business account then the IRS says you need to have them fill out a W4 as far as I know.

[Jim]

Originally Posted by Cleo

If you pay someone out of your business account then the IRS says you need to have them fill out a W4 as far as I know.

Only if it's over $600/year I think, Cleo.

[SirMoby]

Please don't put the SSN on the model release form. It is not required on this document for any reason what so ever and now that we're required to keep copies of model release (or some some dated document) I'm sitting on a boat load of SSNs that I don't want to have. I know that you're not selling content but it's a bad habit to get this type of information when it's not needed.

Jim, you are correct and one day let's hope the law will be changed to "You can not deny someone service for not giving out thier SSN". Of course that would would almost shut down the identity theft business so it probably won't happen.

[Cleo]

Originally Posted by Jim

Only if it's over $600/year I think, Cleo.

I thought that $600 was the amount at which time you need to report it but at the time of hiring someone they also need to fill out a W-4 form.

"For Businesses with Employees
If you have employees, you are responsible for verifying their eligibility to work in the United States. This is done by filing a Form I-9, Employment Eligibility Verification for each of your employees. In addition, employees must fill out an employee tax withholding form, Form W-4."
http://www.turbotax.com/articles/irs...uirements.html

[Chop Smith]

A model would be an independent contractor and subject to receive a Form 1099. If I can remember from my CPA days, you can request a determination by using Form SS-8.

[Cleo]

I still see a place where the model would need to put their tax ID on that form.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fss8.pdf

I have a lot of friends who are here illegal (just about all of them got here legal but have overstayed their visa) and you can't hire them because they don't have a social security number.

I'm not a lawyer, CPA, accountant, or any kind of legal advice person but I do know that my CPA says that I need a tax ID number for all payments I make to a private person.

This has nothing to do with model releases, 2257, or anything at all to do with IDs other then my CPA says I need a tax ID of I pay someone for any kind of work or service.

I guess since I'm not actually required to report anything under $600 per year the IRS wouldn't know if I had obtained the tax ID number but then if I was audited or checked to see if I was hiring illegal immigrants then I would be required to show that I had them fill out the proper IRS form.

[Chop Smith]

Originally Posted by Cleo

I guess since I'm not actually required to report anything under $600 per year the IRS wouldn't know if I had obtained the tax ID number but then if I was audited or checked to see if I was hiring illegal immigrants then I would be required to show that I had them fill out the proper IRS form.

Of course you should follow the advice of your professionals.

At the point of audit, you would have to prove that the model was an independent contractor and that an employer/employee relationship did not exist between you and the model. When checking the independence of sub-contractors, lazy auditors will normally accept an EIN, 64-xxxxxxxx not SSN, as proof.

[Cleo]

Don't you only have an EIN if you have a business of some sort? Then the check would be made out to their business name and not their personal name.

I don't know… this is why I pay someone to do this stuff for me and to be honest I never hire talent so it is not something that I've talked to my CPA very much about. Angel just switched to my CPA so it will be of interest to see what he says about paying her talent. Much of her talent does make over $600 a year so with them the issue is moot but then there is also the talent who only does one shoot a year or the guy guys who get paid very little if anything.

[walrus]

Originally Posted by Chop Smith

A model would be an independent contractor and subject to receive a Form 1099. If I can remember from my CPA days, you can request a determination by using Form SS-8.

As one who makes a living as an independant contractor, according to the asshole who keeps the IRS off my back, I need to invoice the business I'm doing work for and make no mention of an hourly arraingement, simply "services rendered on project xyz.

I also include either my EIN or my SSN, dependant upon where I want the $$$ to go. If I make over $600 the company must 1099 me or my business.

But including the EIN or SSN on the invoice is not required. It is required that the company maintain the information in some form.

Because I bill for services and not in a reciprocal hourly agreement, there should never be any question of an employee/emplyer relationship, unless I happen to be using my SSN on a project that I am doing solely for one company but even then it would take a whole lot of investigationg to prove.

[juggernaut]

Originally Posted by Chop Smith

A model would be an independent contractor and subject to receive a Form 1099. If I can remember from my CPA days, you can request a determination by using Form SS-8.

I always found this interesting. If you read some of the documents you have to sign with some of the larger cam sites, they stated you are not an employee of their company. But then with in the same documents they also state that you are not an independent contractor. Then what are you? I have found around 3 sites that state this and always thought that if there was ever a business dispute a lawyer would have a field day with some of those contracts. Im sure the IRS would too.

[serenity]

Originally Posted by furrygirl

On the model release I have all of my models sign, which was written by a lawyer, one of the fields is their social security number. I have a new interested girl (who is on other sites and I know is a "legit" model) who does not want to use her SSN, and says she has two valid IDs without her SSN. Since I doubt I'll be paying her more than $600 a year, is there an actual good reason to insist on SSNs or SINs on model releases?

A model release is there to protect you and the model. Her SSN is not needed for that purpose. We do not ask for SSN of any of the models we are currently shooting. We recently had our releases redone to cover all contingencies. I think the best advice is to cover yourself for 2257 with all the correct id's etc. If you end up using this model all the time, and you need to issue tax docs, you can always get her SSN then.

[Linkster]

The correct interpretation would be that they are an independent contractor - however you need to have that in your contract to ensure the IRS cannot come back and saythey were an employee - and therefore you would not have to have a W-4 or I-9. This would also get rid of any requirement to have the SSN - however keep in mind that a lot of states use the SSN as the DL number and you would have to show that number(if they are using that as their ID) so in those states it would be a moot point.
Juggernaut - Im not sure why they would have both classifications in those contracts as you cant be both - there are two other classifications as well that I cant remember the names of - but you cant be an employee and an independent contractor for the same job.

[Chop Smith]

Entertainers, by definition in the revenue code, are independent contractors.

If the payor directs the result of the work done by a person and not the method that the person accomplishs the task then the payee is an independent contractor. As in 'bitch, look sexy" but you do not tell her how to accomplish it. But the determination would not be that strict. A flat fee is generally indicative of an independent contractor.

If the payor can control what will be done and how it will be accomplished, then the payee is an employee of the payor. A long-term continuous relationship is indicative of an employer/employee relationship. Regular wages for a specified period of time favor an employee classification except in professions where an hourly billing rate is industry practice such as attorneys and accountants.