shave me

[smoo]

ok, is there a program out there where shaving does not occur. seriously.

[Fonz]

http://hairy.amkingdom.com/02/

sorry, couldn't resist

[Jim]

Fonz, you know better
You would actually be surprised how few sponsors actually shave. Feel free to use any listing on this site if you are worried.

[Platinum Bryan]

We don't shave, so hit me up if you're interested in using a sponsor that does not shave!!

[Allfetish]

I can't say for sure, but I seriously doubt cybernetbucks.com shaves. I've had great experience with them. I'm sure there are many honest ones out there that value their name and reputation long term.

[Ms Naughty]

If there's a shaving command in the ccbill admin, I'm buggered if I can find it LOL

That doesn't read like a very professional sponsor-type statement, does it?

Perhaps I should rephrase it and say: We here at Purple Dollars are fine upstanding members of the webmaster community and would never cheat our webmasters because:
a. We're too nice for that sort of shenanigans,
b. Our processor does not allow us to shave

[cybersexhound]

what does "shaving" mean?

[Ramster]

Shaving is when sponsors do not count all sales. So you made 4 sales but they only show 3 and pay you for 3 only. The thing is contrary to popular belief shaving is VERY rare.

Really when you think about it. If a program got caught shaving (it has happened) they would be done in this biz. Is it worth it? Losing everything to make a little extra money? I can't how it would be.

[Linkster]

Originally Posted by cybersexhound

what does "shaving" mean?

its when you get a little older and you get hair growing on your face you have to buy a razor and some foamy cream and cut the hairs off


sorry couldnt resist

[cybersexhound]

Originally Posted by Linkster

its when you get a little older and you get hair growing on your face you have to buy a razor and some foamy cream and cut the hairs off


sorry couldnt resist

I can only pray Ill never have hairs on my face! or hanging out of my ears growing out of my eyebrows or anything like that. (then Id never get laid!)

[smutranger]

I've known some people in this industry who swear up and down that shaving happens, happens often and you gotta live with it. I've never seen any proof though myself.

[khs]

what about the scrub?

[SirMoby]

Originally Posted by khs

what about the scrub?

That's not shaving and is not controlled by the pay sites. Scrubbing is done by the credit card processors.

Every CC transaction comes with some risk because after approval the card owner can deny the charge (sometimes for valid reasons sometimes not). Each week, month, quarter, etc. the processor can only take on so much risk for rejected transactions. If during one of those periods they have a high number of bad transactions they have to be more careful and start scrutinizing each transaction a bit more. When this happens they start denying a higher percentage of perfectly good transactions.

This process is known as scrubbing and it is controlled only by the the processing companies and the credit card companies.

Program owners have no control or even influence over scrubbing.

[SirMoby]

Most accusations about shaving based on conversions simply don't have enough data points to be statistically valid. There's just way too many variables involved that people forget about.

[Useless]

I usually shave, then scrub. Shaving in itself won't make those pesky buggers go away. I'm itchy just thinking about it.

[Cleo]

I only shave my feet, especially their soles, so that my steel toed construction boots are more comfortable to dance in.

[Sexvilly]

if you are too fanatic about shaving, I would go for the 3rd party between you and the sponsor -> use CCbill sponsors, VXS, Paycom, etc.

[lassiter]

Originally Posted by Jim

Fonz, you know better
Feel free to use any listing on this site if you are worried.

I'm rather less than 100% convinced of that but in the absence of clear proof, I'll abstain from pointing specific fingers.

BUT... the shaving (in general, not talking about specific sponsors - yet) isn't always found on the sales side, but with actual hits to FHGs themselves. The best way to determine this is by clearing your browser cache, and then clicking through to tours and signup pages from your own FHGs. (Use FHGs for sites you don't have actually listed anywhere and just add your affiliate code to 'em so you'll know it was your clicks). You'd be surprised at the number of sponsors that simply don't count the hits at all, which leads to the suspicion that they wouldn't count the sale either if there was one. It's certainly not true of all sponsors, but I'd guess that at least 50% of 'em shave some tour hits.

[DollarManSteve]

Originally Posted by lassiter

BUT... the shaving (in general, not talking about specific sponsors - yet) isn't always found on the sales side, but with actual hits to FHGs themselves. The best way to determine this is by clearing your browser cache, and then clicking through to tours and signup pages from your own FHGs. (Use FHGs for sites you don't have actually listed anywhere and just add your affiliate code to 'em so you'll know it was your clicks). You'd be surprised at the number of sponsors that simply don't count the hits at all, which leads to the suspicion that they wouldn't count the sale either if there was one. It's certainly not true of all sponsors, but I'd guess that at least 50% of 'em shave some tour hits.

This isnt 'shaving' as defined and accepted by the majority of webmasters. Different programs count uniques in different ways - some Raw, some 1st page, 2nd page, join page, etc with different criteria. For example, we count only 24 hour rolling unique IPs to the front end. So, what appears as 'shaving uniques' is most often a case of not counting raw hits. Does this affect ratios? Yes, but it is a more clear indication of efficiency since it reflects (within the limitations of IPs) how many unique individuals visit a site in a given 24 hour period and subsequently join.

In your case above, if the sponsor didnt count raw hits to the gallery, visiting the gallery yourself over and over within a certain time period would only count 1 unique - which is completely reflective of the reality.

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by grandmascrotum

If there's a shaving command in the ccbill admin, I'm buggered if I can find it LOL

That doesn't read like a very professional sponsor-type statement, does it?

Perhaps I should rephrase it and say: We here at Purple Dollars are fine upstanding members of the webmaster community and would never cheat our webmasters because:
a. We're too nice for that sort of shenanigans,
b. Our processor does not allow us to shave

You can shave with a CCBILL program as easy as any other program you like... it's not difficult at all. Slow down and think for a minute how it works, and what potential there is, and you will see... it would not be hard for a sponsor to shave any percentage they like off of CCBill sites.

The method got explained to me about 3 or 4 years ago, and to my knowledge, has not been fixed because it cannot be fixed.

Alex

[RawAlex]

As for shaving in general, it happens at many points along the process and for different reasons.

"pure" shaving is just not creditting sales to your account. 1 for me, 1 for you... A program paying $30 a sale underreporting by 10% would certain see a big difference in their bottom line for operations.

Some programs also shave certain types of sales (backup processors, check sales, or whatever) as a known part of their program. In reality this is not a shave, just part of the terms and conditions you might not have read.

Some programs "shave" by putting links off their tour pages that don't pay you, or collect email addresses or whatever without paying you for the surfer. This is becoming less of an issue as mail programs have sort of died out due to can-spam rules.

The current shaving I see the most is "hit shaving" and "conversion improvement" shaving. Counting only 2nd page, join page, or similar hits and then reporting your sales ratios based on this. I track every single hit I send to sponsors, and I can tell you some of them don't count for shit, often requiring the surfer to go 2 or more pages into a tour to count as a hit. I think programs do this mostly to make their sales rations look better than they would otherwise. Most major programs these days will display sales based on unique clicks rather than raw clicks.

The other current popular shave is the "foreign traffic skim". Basically, surfers from certain countries never even make it to the tour, and are instead redirected to console hell, dialer downloads, or fluffed off to traffic trades. You get no credit for the hit, no chance to make the sale,and no benefit from the surfer. This is the hardest skim of all to keep track of, because you would have to spoof IP and other variables to see the end results. Programs like SPAcash openly redirect surfers based on IP to different tours, it isn't hard to picture programs using similar technology to other ends (and note, this isn't a comment on SPACash... I don't like their geo stuff, but I don't even suggest that they skim or do anything of the like... they are an honest program based on what I know!).

Good luck....

Alex

[plateman]

I think sponsors shave, they gotta shave a PPS program, what happens when most of the sales for a month or 2 are all 4.95 trials and hardly any convert to a full sale ? would you want all your money you had saved up to be gone..

Plus greed has to come in, and as mentioned if they only shave 10% of sales, thats a lot of money in a month..

plus now think about it, say you had a program and if you shaved a little a month you could make 10k more a month and if you didnt shave you only make 6k a month being honest... Thats a hell of a lot of temptation.. right ?

the thing is nobody can or will prove that a sponsor is shaving from a webmaster side of things..

So another question how many program workers have ever left a program on bad terms and showed the webmaster public that they shaved with proof...

So really I think very few sponsors shave sales because the risk is to high..

[lassiter]

Originally Posted by DollarManSteve

In your case above, if the sponsor didnt count raw hits to the gallery, visiting the gallery yourself over and over within a certain time period would only count 1 unique - which is completely reflective of the reality.

I'm talking about clearing all cookies and caches, then sending 1 hit to a specific site, clicked though all the way to the signup page. 24 hours later, these sponsors would still show zero hits for that day for that site. A fairly common occurance by my experimentation.

[Maj. Stress]

Originally Posted by plateman

I think sponsors shave, they gotta shave a PPS program, what happens when most of the sales for a month or 2 are all 4.95 trials and hardly any convert to a full sale ? would you want all your money you had saved up to be gone..

I'm sure some sponsors do shave. I've seen them openly admit it on another board a few years ago.
A good sponsor really does not have to shave if they are smart. I'm not that brilliant and do not run a paysite but I do see some moneymaking opportunities that they have to increase their bottom line. Upsells inside the member area.
Offering bonus sites when a member wants to cancel their membership.
Offering a bonus site for a single $ on initial sign up that rebills full price.
The obvious: console sales

I'm sure there are hundreds of hooks I have not even imagined.

With the cc processing the way it is nowadays you do have to wonder wtf is going on sometimes tho.....

[RawAlex]

lassiter, the "unique" visit isn't usually measured by your cookie, but often by IP address or other information to track apparent individuals. Merely clearing your cache and your cookie will not always create a unique impression.

Alex