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-   Link Lists & Getting Listed (http://www.greenguysboard.com/board/forumdisplay.php?f=7)
-   -   Are autosubmitters true evil? (http://www.greenguysboard.com/board/showthread.php?t=27959)

Linkster 2006-01-17 07:15 AM
I actually own 3 different autosubmitters - bought them so I could reverse engineer them and get code to block them - and you'd be surprised what a little coding can tell you about submitters :) Yes there are some LLs that allow them unknowingly - and I allow the form fillers for my partners - but I can guarantee that the auto-submitters go directly to the blacklist and that will be shared with the other LL owners in the very near future :)

I know we wont agree on the recip links - but then - it really doesnt matter as I know who ranks for what in google :)

Surfn 2006-01-17 07:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hjnet
Just to avoid that someone get's the idea I'm defending autosubmitters here, I'm only using manual submission since years, even on TGPs and MGPs, and I do that cause I know how easy it is to fuck up an autosubmitter. So I completely understand the ban of autosubmitters from LinkLists.

BUT, if you say "Best I can tell, most LLs dont list autosubmitted sites" I'd suggest you buy a subscription for an manual submission tool or autosubmitter yourself, just to get an idea how they work. Most (all) of them just load your submission page in Internet Explorer, and sends the form like any human being, so there's no way to detect an autosubmission (as long as the submitting webmaster doesn't fuck up the submission all the time). And I bet you that most LinkList owners (including yourself) list much more autosubmitted Freesites than they'd expect.

The Recip Thingie is something different, I actually see them as a valuable tool for SEO, but that's just my personal opinion.
Any old school LL owner or TGP owner can spot an auto submit a mile away. If you believe otherwise you are just fooling yourself.

hjnet 2006-01-17 08:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linkster
I actually own 3 different autosubmitters - bought them so I could reverse engineer them and get code to block them - and you'd be surprised what a little coding can tell you about submitters :) Yes there are some LLs that allow them unknowingly - and I allow the form fillers for my partners - but I can guarantee that the auto-submitters go directly to the blacklist and that will be shared with the other LL owners in the very near future :)

Well, I'd say that too if I wanted to keep autosubmitters of my Sites :D

But we can test it if you like, give me a partner account for 5 days at one of your "protected" sites, and I'll submit 10 random links to it, 9 per handsubmission and one per autosubmission. And you'd have to pick the autosubmitted one.
I bet $100 that you'd pick the wrong one, although there's a chance of 1:10 :)

Useless 2006-01-17 08:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hjnet
...so there's no way to detect an autosubmission (as long as the submitting webmaster doesn't fuck up the submission all the time).
WRONG! Think about the process, compare the difference between auto and manual, and you may figure out how intelligent scripts know when a link was auto-submitted.

Toby 2006-01-17 08:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Useless Warrior
WRONG! Think about the process, compare the difference between auto and manual, and you may figure out how intelligent scripts know when a link was auto-submitted.
I've only had a half-cup of coffee this morning and I can still figure that one out.

hjnet 2006-01-17 09:02 AM
Just to end this discussion, anybody can bet with me.

I submit 10 links to your site(s), 9 of them by hand, and one autosubmitted. If you can detect the autosubmitted link, I'll pay you $100, if you can't I'll get $100 from you (to avoid that 20 webmasters just try their 1:10 chance for $100)

Only one try.

Allfetish 2006-01-17 10:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Useless Warrior
WRONG! Think about the process, compare the difference between auto and manual, and you may figure out how intelligent scripts know when a link was auto-submitted.
For starters besides the obvious referrer and UA which could be spoofed, I could see a mechanism based on the time from which the form was loaded (if at all) and it was submitted. Autosubmits would be near instantanious, hand submits would not be so even for the fastest typist.

Mr. Blue 2006-01-17 10:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allfetish
Autosubmits would be near instantanious, hand submits would not be so even for the fastest typist.
True, but scripts on both ends make a mistake...whether it is autosubmits or a tgp script. Example, for The Hun I manually submit...that's just too huge not to manually submit to. I type 125 wpm, one time I hit enter, the verification word came up, it was something like "Clear"...my fingers typed it, hit enter, and the script said I wasn't a human, lol.

Completely automated everything isn't a good idea. Whether it's a submitter using an autosubmit program or whether its a tgp that sets rules up for their tgp that doesn't meet real world tgp standards. The #1 error I see on new tgps regard setting too few outbound links. Doing that just makes you look like a noob sauce. Testing your script before going live would have prevented that.

Know your tools or it'll make you look like a tool.

RawAlex 2006-01-17 11:09 AM
hjnet, there is one problem with your challenge: You would be trying too hard, and checking it twice. That isn't what most autosubmitters do.

Yes, I can program a single bot to go to a single submit form and fill it out perfectly. Given 9 times to teach it, I am sure the 10th try would be good.

Most autosubmitters don't do that.

Most autosubmitters get a list of submit pages (often getting the URL of the form processor script directly) and they use them without verification and without concern that changes may have occurred at the link site. They just turn it on a spew like incontenant monkeys until they get blocked at most good places... and still they spew.

Your test isn't valid because it isn't real world. It has no bearing on how things really work, and would prove nothing.

Alex

hjnet 2006-01-17 11:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allfetish
For starters besides the obvious referrer and UA which could be spoofed, I could see a mechanism based on the time from which the form was loaded (if at all) and it was submitted. Autosubmits would be near instantanious, hand submits would not be so even for the fastest typist.
Most better autosubmitters have a timing option since ~1-2 years to simulate the time a human beeing would need to fill the form.
But actually I only know 1 script that checks for that.

hjnet 2006-01-17 11:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RawAlex
hjnet, there is one problem with your challenge: You would be trying too hard, and checking it twice. That isn't what most autosubmitters do.

Yes, I can program a single bot to go to a single submit form and fill it out perfectly. Given 9 times to teach it, I am sure the 10th try would be good.

Most autosubmitters don't do that.

Most autosubmitters get a list of submit pages (often getting the URL of the form processor script directly) and they use them without verification and without concern that changes may have occurred at the link site. They just turn it on a spew like incontenant monkeys until they get blocked at most good places... and still they spew.

Your test isn't valid because it isn't real world. It has no bearing on how things really work, and would prove nothing.

Alex
I was talking about a perfect autosubmission, and that it can't be detected.

Actually it's true that in reality nobody maintains his Database good enough to qualify for autosubmission, thats why I submit manually myself, and I'm suggesting it to all my Clients.

Useless 2006-01-17 03:19 PM
I suppose submitters get banned for auto-submitting all the time because reviewers are pyschic, not because of the fallacies in auto-submission software. hjnet, for someone who claims to preach manual submission, you sure do run to the defense of auto-submission products. I suppose I would to if I made money selling databases for auto-submitters.

RawAlex 2006-01-17 03:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hjnet
Most better autosubmitters have a timing option since ~1-2 years to simulate the time a human beeing would need to fill the form.
But actually I only know 1 script that checks for that.
Then you don't know many scripts. The smartest scripts test for it, and don't report their findings to anyone except the link site owner. Why give submitters information on how to cheat your system?

Alex

Allfetish 2006-01-17 04:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hjnet
Most better autosubmitters have a timing option since ~1-2 years to simulate the time a human beeing would need to fill the form.
But actually I only know 1 script that checks for that.
That is nice option from the autosubmitters perspective then. I don't know much about them. I was only trying to come up with ways to detect them. I'm sure you could do other stuff as well (such as randomly change the fields in away to cause it to crash and burn every once in a while to make the autosubmit ibvious), or if it becomes a problem go the the graphic security code setup.

I allow it on mine, but I think it is disrespectful to do it on someone's LL when they don't allow it. :twocents:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Useless Warrior
I suppose submitters get banned for auto-submitting all the time because reviewers are pyschic,
UW, you really crack me up sometimes! |thumb Thanks!

MadMax 2006-01-17 06:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surfn
Any old school LL owner or TGP owner can spot an auto submit a mile away. If you believe otherwise you are just fooling yourself.
I'm not even old school, and I can smell them a mile away :D

Autosubmitters are a plague on my house, and I can easily stand with the other LL owners here in saying that there isn't one out there that behaves well enough to keep itself from being detected. Maybe not on the first submit, but eventually it will become apparent.

Hate to be mysterious, but I just can't give away any of the trade secrets on how they throw flags up...be they DO throw up flags that go way beyond not filling form fields correctly :)

hjnet 2006-01-18 02:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Useless Warrior
I suppose submitters get banned for auto-submitting all the time because reviewers are pyschic, not because of the fallacies in auto-submission software. hjnet, for someone who claims to preach manual submission, you sure do run to the defense of auto-submission products. I suppose I would to if I made money selling databases for auto-submitters.
To be exactly I'm selling Databases for Manual Submission, but I'm sure I've already said that a few times.

Hopefully this thread helps a bit to share light on the difference between hand submission, manual submission and autosubmission :)

Useless 2006-01-18 08:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hjnet
To be exactly I'm selling Databases for Manual Submission, but I'm sure I've already said that a few times.
I've two replies.

1.) Roman Maroni.
2.) Yeah, sure.


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