Right there with what you are saying is where 90% of the abuse in DMOZ lies in the sub-site listing shit.

Seems like i have to wait a year for a root listing and these subsites pop up right and left.

Jay - have you tried posting on their board to find out why it hasnt been listed? Usually you'll get a response pretty quickly :)

Linkster,

>>Jay - have you tried posting on their board to find out why it hasnt been listed? Usually you'll get a response pretty quickly<<

I have. Standard answer I get is that it's there. It's still sitting in the que with quite a few others. I ask for even a remote ETA like a month, 4 months less than 6 months...the answer is they can't provide any ETA at all.

I *did* get a regional listing within a couple weeks though.

I'd think as an editor I'd check out sites people post on resource zone because there''s far less chance it's a spam site if people are taking the time to follow up.

I do hope the adult side is more swift. |santa|

What's the url of the board?

My experience only - but yes a heck of a lot quicker :)

Jay,

http://www.resource-zone.com/

I keep posting this every time someone mentions Dmoz......

The Adult editors are loads faster than all the other Dmoz sections put together.

This google update is unique. I see "news" and "health sites" coming up for certain adult keywords that were once flooded with legit adult website listings. Horrible update. I hope it doesnt stay this way.

I actually dared to write a complaint to Google today... (scary!)

Before the re-indexing I already faced heaps of sites ahead of mine spamming my site name! - now it's absolutely redicilous:
My site TropicHeat.com slipped to position 145 for 'tropicheat' - and almost all 144 results before are spamming my gallery headers (and the majority redirect to the same full-page NastyDollars ad), for "Tropic Heat" in two words it's even worse: position 717 - and almost 600 pages in front spam my name (which I have registered since 1999!) with re-direct porn sites or warez sites...
I'm publishing 'free porn series', and have done so since 1998 (can probably claim to be the first), and until the re-indexing my site was in the top 20 for 'porn series' (position #8 most of the time, position #1 was another of my sites [which I didn't deserve...LOL]), more importantly I know most sites who publish decent series or links to series, and before the re-indexing I thought all results in the top 40-50 were actually representing decent sites with no cheats or pop-up-redirection hell... Now: in the top 40 you won't find a single site offering a single uncensored porn series (you might find heaps of references to series written or filmed about the topic of child porn - but that's it).
|pcsucks|

So I sat down and pointed these things out in a letter to search-quality@google.com - the (automated) reply is at least promising:

I just thought somebody has to tell them they got it wrong... |jackinthe

GeorgeTH,

>>I just thought somebody has to tell them they got it wrong...

There are a couple *1000* messages on webmasterworld.com telling them that every day.

Unless 25% of page 1 results are very much off topic the average surfer will just never know or care.

Lots of speculation from some very smart people, but it's all just that.

This is a radical change that caught a lot of people off guard and plenty of clean sites have been wiped from the results.

In the top two AdWords for phrases *all* companies were removed from the results where they had previously held the top spots.

Let's be honest- Google became a virtual monopoly and now they can do what they damn well please. Average surfers will continue to think Google is good unless drastically off-topic results are shown.

The only good thingis that once Y! swicthes to Ink a good chunk of the pie will be split up.

They have some really sophisticated, but immature technology via their purchase of Applied Semantics.

Nothing seems to make sense, and what is reported from one person is countered by others.

Even people who have been posting and reading there for 3 years are trying to gain a hold on the new results.

Probably the most disheartening posts are from people who were sqeeky clean and worked thier asses of playing by the rules and their sites have vanished from thier primary phrases. POOF.

If the results stick more than not- this is an entirely different animal that requires a very light touch of optimization as we know it and more natural linking only from related sites.

Themes.

The entire 'get links with anchor text in your phrase' is dead...if it sticks.

Someone reported some changing on a datacenter resembling pre Florida (as this update has been come to be known) results.

But I didn't see any changes last I checked around 7PM.

Then again it would be Google like to come out with some new filters/algo changes on a Holiday...

|waves| I was sure I wasn't the only one complaining - just that this really pissed me off today, also from the user point of view:

I needed some purely statistical data (absolutely not porn related!) and simply couldn't find it on Google (which used to be my 1st choice in the last 2-3 years). I finally went to Lycos (where I know how to do a specific search like that - unlike Altavista for some weird reason) and on all 5 different topics I got what I needed from the top 6 or 7 listings...

And my stats are now showing that I get more se traffic from Altavista (once I subtract the searches for mydomain.com - why are people doing that?) than from Google! Yesterday the order was Altavista, MSN Search (which was never big with my sites) and finally 3. came Google - and I wrote them this fact too - after all Google are in a competative market!

As far as I know they want to float stock next year, and we all know what happened to Excite and Go once they got things wrong...

The reason IMO that Google is showing some pretty stupid serps is down to filters which I think have been applied to various targeted searches.

I've read a load of boards and Google have some serious bridges to mend with webmasters in general.

Rumours are that Google are attempting to boost their advertising revenue, ahead of their IPO.

The following will not prove that filters have been applied totally, but it is an interesting development.......

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...=Google+Search

Notice that I've searched for xxx and told Google to ignore pages which contain a word I made up (nonsense word)

Now check out what Joe Surfer gets.....

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...c2coff=1&q=xxx

You guys can just use this too:

http://www.scroogle.org/

You guys want to see a good example of companies being removed?

punch in:

mystery shopping

Now...even more to the point:

mystery shopping company

You'd think with a query like that I'm pretty much telling Google I want to see mystery shopping companies. |zzzzzzzzz

In a niche field like this they are only known for a handful of terms.

And the terms that vanquished pages just so happen to be the Top 2 for Overture and AdWords- and the only meaningful 'money phrases.

While this is Overture Suggestions, AdWords is similar in traffic/CTR, etc...

Searches done in October 2003
Count Search Term
22772 mystery and shopping (was #4- now not in 1st 1,000)
1127 mystery shopping company (was #2 now not in first 1,000)
988 mystery shopping job (not helpful)
293 association mystery provider shopping (not helpful)
254 frankfurt mystery shopping (not helpful)
228 mystery shopping services (_FIRST_ 'money phrase' Google allows companies to be listed in.)

And no- the lower search terms do not convert more highly. After a year plus of asking how people found their company it was damn near *always* that top phrase just remove the 'and'.

The "good" thing- it was a wash. As you can see near 90% of those who were in the Top 100 are no longer for that industries top phrase.

Since this Florida update the results from Overture/Adwords has been great because potential clients cannot see any companies on Page 1...so the Ads have a higher CTR now.

Is it a math 'bug'- try telling 89 business owners this when the selective phrases that nuked companies were the Top 2 most competitive for their industry.

As some have pointed out some very competitve phrases haven't been effected like 'web hosting' or 'web design'



It's good to be a monopoly, eh?

Happy turkey day to those of us in the USA.

I simply keep on pestering them!

Today I needed some info on a company listed on the Australian Stock Exchange, called "Deutsche Divers": apart from one stock analysis (with no further info) all I got were links to scuba diving sites and a few more stock tickers on page 3-4. Believe me: I tried all sorts of different ways, until no useful results for ["Deutsche Divers" +company -scuba] sent me straight to the link 'help us improve'!
|banghead|

In the meantime I had found on MSN Search what I was looking for, and of course I told Google this (with search syntax).

From all of the reasearch I have been doing, I have come to the opinion that this is not about filters at all. This is about the Google IOP and selling adwords. What would be an easier group to target than porn webmasters (and to be fair, from what I've read it isn't limited to porn) for potential cumstomers to sell advertising to.

For the big money terms, and I expect this list to expand as the months go on, you are going to have ponying up.

They have to make money - I can understand that. The problem I've always had with SE selling spots is they don't deliver the best answer - just who's paying most for it.

That's business - ladies and gentlemen.

I would like to retract part of my last statement, and would like to say that there is definently a filter in effect.

Google knows that we know how to jockey the results and the just threw a massive wrench in it.

Jay,

Yeah. It's a whole new ball game with Google unless they update again before Xmas and bring back results similar to the past- before this update.

One thing I don't get if it's AdWords based- why would they leave some high competition phrases alone like 'web hosting' or 'web design company'?

They must have known people would be super pissed at them across the board. Why not initiate all phrases at once?

Man, I've read nearly *every* theory out there and there is always something that doesn't synch up with what I watch.

Some results are just plain WACKED OUT.

Look at the #1 spot for this search:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&i...=Google+Search

WTF? Out of 380k pages an Ice Hockey site is #1. LOL.

Most of the results do seem relevant though. But why is that site, under this algo #1? I don't think even GOOGLE knows.

Alphawolf - have you seen the trick to see you the SERPs without the filters? There is some heavy filtering going on - it's just catching the wrong shit.

Yeps.
Gotta keep those shareholders happy now.
This time next year google is going to be a pornwebmasters memory.

Jay,

You mean besides the one I posted here? This is the best way to see the deal:

http://www.scroogle.org

There is a good article from that page:

http://www.searchenginewatch.com/sea...le.php/3114531

Generally, Google sucks.

I made #1 and #2 on scroogle for "xxx" - maybe we can start convincing porn surfers to search there instead.

I knew the IPO was bad news. Now, here's the proof.

I don't understand why they just don't start slinging some banner spots like everyone else.

Like I said before No tits, no hits

Something like 1 in every 4 searches are sex related. If Google filters too much, or if we get some kinda Froogle/Nightsurf, then Google will drop in the rankings like a lead balloon....... and they know it.

I think what has happened here is that Google has gotten tired of SEOs over doing it again, and having highly optimized pages come up at the top of all the best searches. There is nothing natural (Google's apparent goal) in SERPs that have nothing but the highest dollar companies because they could afford better SEOs. There is also no benefit to have the top sites all redirecting traffic to brokers (and I saw this on some non-adult terms, a google listing leading to another SE page results for a pay per click company).

So google picked 500-5000 keywords and phrases, and basically TOSSED the top 100 or so listing out the door.

Yes, it sucks. If you have prided yourself on building the types of pages that end up in the top 10 of searches by using good but heavy SEO techniques, you are probably pissed off this week because your traffic dropped.

What Google doesn't seem to understand is that part of the reason google is so popular and so "on the top of the market" is because it is the target we all have been after for years. When they start taking petty vengance on good SEO, they will find themselves less in demand from our side... and we will start to recommend other things to surfers too.


Alex

Can anybody tell me what's going on?
 

What's this http://www.scroogle.org/ site about?

I don't know it, and everytime I have tried to follow the link from here all I get is the dreaded "Cannot find weapons of mass destructuction" - page - - - oops: I mean of course: "cannot find server" - page!

Is this site blocked to overseas visitors?
The latest secret weapon to give Americans world dominance?

(Here we go again - LOL)... |peace|

I agree 100%.

I've read hundreds of posts, theories, seo threads, articles & opinions, checked out hundreds of top listings for various keywords - there doesn't seem to be any sort of pattern and EVERY theory I've heard can be disproved after a few searches.

The 'penalising 4 heavy seo' theory is the hardest to understand IMO, after all the existing set of 'accepted seo techniques' was developed by wm's to follow googles own method of discerning the highest relevant online content... To remove pages that have - by their own methods - proven to have the 'most relevant' results is just plain fucking silly! (Hmmmmm - "Dear Mr Google - RU just plain fucking silly?"... maybe you're right - lol)

The problem is they haven't...

Some have gone, some have moved, some have remained... Penisbot still ranks #1 for 'porn' for example!

Hi Jay :) - I think you were right when you retracted that statement, even the 'deliberate attempt to promote ppc' theory falls apart for many phrases...
I'm not suprised you're pissed though - the results for the term xxx are a complete lot of bollocks (pardon me) - ip address finders (inserted '.xxx.xxx' for the last 6 digits) - how the fuck is that relevant when searching for xxx?

Glad to see you still have some good high listings though :)

Not only a whole new game but the rules appear to differ for almost every keyword or phrase and unless they fix it quickly the several hundred theories now being optimised for will result in the undoing of years of googles own best work IMHO!

PS: Dear Mr Google |pissleft| - Merry fucking christmas...

George TH,

I'm in the UK and I can get it...

It shows - in theory - the results as they would be without the latest set of filters applied...

The problem with it is that - as usual quite a few domains disappeared from their listings when the dance started - and were not replaced yet - (even in their 'removed positions') - so it's only real values are:
1/. To prove that the listings are 'doctored' (which you can see by using a server search tool anyway) - and -
2/. To give you that extra 'adrenalin rush' when you feel yourself dropping off!

Christyb: the problem with "proven seo techniques" is that if you combine enough of the in one place, you can create dominating pages that have little or nothing to do with terms searched. People are then turning those searches around and moving them to other PPC engines, and away you go.

Overuse of seo techniques, no matter how accepted those techniques are on an individual cases basis will sooner or later result in what you are seeing: the SE people freaking out and taking some very harsh action to quell the problem.

One of the things that makes me laugh a bit is that many of the threads (including some of the posts in this one) suggest that Google somehow might owe someone a good listing because they decoded the methods used by Google. Doesn't anyone realize that this is EXACTLY what Google is trying to avoid? they want to give good results for real sites, not bad results for good SEO techniques.

Remember also the great theory of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy(paraphrased): When the answer to life, the universe, and everything is figured out, the entire universe is replaced with something even more complicated and fiendish. It is said that this has happened a number of times already.

Once the Google math is figured out, and clearly it has been, the whole system gets chucked out the window and replaced.

I hope people are out there madly trying to optimize for this, because I am sure that the next update will be even more fucked up, and the heavy SEO people will probably once again be less than pleased.

Alex

I've been reading some things about the OOP (Over Optimization Penelty)...Google usuually is pretty good about penalizing people or banning for things that should be wrong i.e.: link farms, expired domains, and cross linking. If theye are going to penalize you for building a good spider friendly site - that is just retarded and I even think they know that. What are you supposed to do, just build a half ass site and expect the competetion to link it? Is that how you get to the top? I hope not.

I suspect the truth is somewhere between:

1. They have profit hungry IPOs that want to sling more adwords.

and

2. They went a little too far with their spam filtering, and in fact left all of the REAL SPAMMERS right up there

Also, don't feel single out - apperently this isn't just limited to adult stuff, though the adult busiiness my be bearing the brunt of it.

Alex - I understand where you're coming from - but aren't there just as likely just as many cloaked pages, redirects etc in a list of 'non-optimised sites'?

The 'google owes me' thing - I agree with you - they dont owe anybody anything - although I suppose one could argue that - since seo techniques were developed in order to give google what they seemed to want (in terms of content) it's a little unfair to penalise the people who have followed their lead!

As for their 'throwing out the whole system' every time the world figures out how to 'abuse them'... I just can't believe they would deliberately reverse years of honing their algorythms towards ultra-relevant content just to fuck with seo peoples heads - lol

I think Jay has it closest with point number 2 - I'm sure they've fucked up big time - the results are not only "super non-relevant" in many cases but still contain some atrocious spam (go figure) and they seem to have trouble with their 'page versions' - their directory listings have been flipping back & forth between up-to-date pages and lists that are months old & poor old googlebot has been working his li'l ass off for weeks :)

The point with the optimising scenario is that - the gist of seo opinion now seems to lean towards "de-optimising".

I'm gonna wait a while yet anyway - like most others I'm getting just as much traffic in total - just on different search terms...
I can say for sure that the terms I'm being found under are not 'as relevant' as those I've lost my listings in though - they're mostly obscure phrases that appear once in 2,000 odd pages - lol - that's progress I guess!

Re: Can anybody tell me what's going on?
 

Just out of interest, who can't access Scroogle?

If you can't, maybe you can read this instead.

This entire Google thing is getting weirder by the minute - like as if they only tried to penalise some particular terms.

Like I said before: I lost my #1 spot for "Porn Series" - I'm not even in the Top 1,000 anymore!
Nothing major really; according to Overture some 1,000 people look it up per month... I rather regret that I lost a position among the Top 50 for the stand-alone "Porn" - that hurts!
BUT: today I found (back tracking from counter stats) that I still hold #1 position for "Sexy Porn Series" and #2 position for "Teen Porn Series"...

You explain this!? (unless of course the dance hasn't finished...)

Another thing which really annoys me is my ranking for my main site under it's own name! Last month (according to Overture) 433 searches were done for "tropicheat" - my site TropicHeat.com (est.1999!) ranks 181 for "tropicheat" - most sites in front of me are spamming my name!
|banghead|

Hello? is anybody there?

http://search-engine-goldmine.com/analysis.html

specific terms- yep. That is what it seems.

Don't believe there is a over optimization penalty simply because in certain phrases 90% of sites were knocked out.

I can tell you 100%- that most of the sites knocked out of a phrase were not optimized at all.

That link URB posted shows things pretty clearly.

Google can do what they want since they are a virtual monopoly.

Actually, they can do what they want anyways...

Anything with 'company' after the keywords seems to have a very high knock out rate- like 80%-90%.

And Joe Surfer can find what he wants because people simply have to load up on AdWords/Overture.

So, a commercial query may not bring up comanies in the 'natural' results, but they will find the Advertising.

I read on another board that someone's AdWords spending went up 1900%. Why? Since there used to be some commercial results in the 'natural' results a lot of people ignored the Ads.

Now, *only* AdWords and Overture ads are relevant for many commercial searches. And too many casual suerfers are clicking on the ads. CTR way up, but conversions and ROI is way down.

Yep- this sucks big time. Especially in searches FOR a company where Google locked out all companies.

ChrstyB,

Hmm...yeah, but- I haven't seen many reports of success in doing this...yet. Especially if it's from a domain that has been tossed out of the first 1,000 results.

I wouldn't de-optimize anything, unless you are doing something obviouly shady...wait one second - do sometthing really shady - they have all of the top spot now anyway - lol.

There's some good points here:
http://search-engine-goldmine.com/analysis.html

PPC shit sucks. Surfer that don't even know the difference between PPC or the "real" results. Google consistantly delivered good results. That's why they blew up.

This just really left room for some competetion. IMO

Me neither - lol...

Then again I haven't seen many reports of success in doing anything to retrieve lost rankings since 'Florida' happened... everybody is panicking and looking for reasons / answers (understandably).

The one thing that causes me the most hassle & wasted time is 'seo gurus' who preach as facts what are really only guesses :(

urb - that article is very interesting - 'clumsy attempt' is the 'keyword' there though... whatever the hell they tried to do it sure has been clumsy!

Jay,
I wasn't doing anything 'shady' - had a nicely balanced index page when I last optimised it - then I added a lot of link exchanges (most of them included my keywords) - when I checked my concentration the other day the count for 'porn' had increased from 16% to 26% - lol (the same for several other phrases) - so now I'm one of those spamming bastards too!
I've since reduced it a little but I don't want to make any major attempt to de/re-optimise because I'm sure they haven't finished with this dance (although they may well take some time out to work on the problems) - If I make changes I'll never know for sure whether that had any bearing...
It's amazing how a few link exchanges can change the balance of words on a page though |doh|

I'm not saying you are doing anything shady. My SE traffic actaully went up with "Florida" - I just lost a few big terms. The people are just having to type more obsure search patterns to find the porn now.

>>>Then again I haven't seen many reports of success in doing anything to retrieve lost rankings since 'Florida' happened... everybody is panicking and looking for reasons / answers (understandably).<<<

Really, I wouldn't expect to see that info shared. If you found a loophole through Google's traps, would you post it all over the net? ;)

I'd expect over time some common factors start to pop up. I doubt this will be a quick fix sorta deal. :(

>>>The one thing that causes me the most hassle & wasted time is 'seo gurus' who preach as facts what are really only guesses<<<

Yeah- but it's good in a way, since people can compare notes and come to some sort of general conclusion. I think most know they aren't facts, but guesses based upon experience.

The biggest problem is that nobody can agree on anything because it almost seems like each results page has it's own set of rules..with a bit of random results tossed in for good measure.

I just keep thinking of those ubber dorks in thier casual outfits sitting on their bean bag chairs, eating free lunch, getting massages while at work, all the while knowing they will get some SERIOUS money when Google IPO's.

Doesn't matter at all if they wiped out 90% of the top 100 sites from their respective phrases. They laugh and go eat their free lunch then get thier free massage.

Also, the general media views SEO as 'cheating' more than not. That's why the New York Post titled an article something along the lines of "NO MORE FREE LUNCH FOR FREE LOADERS", or something to that effect.

I recall in some forum where i picked a nickname with 'seo' in it. Someone commented "So, you're one of those people who puts up a Britteny Spears site but when clicked on it takes us to a porn site, huh?"

There's no in between with most non web people. SEO=scum/spam/redirects

Only thing different this update is that it took out a lot of clean sites...sites that weren't optimized in any way shape or form.

Somewhat ironic that GOOGLE rode the wave of good SEO's trying to get relevant sites to the top of on target phrases for a couple years...then dumped us for the juicey money phrases and left the scraps only.

OK- sorry for the rant. :)

This thread needs more unfounded opinion , baseless speculation and crying SEOs.....

Deal with it and move on people...

DD

SIR, YES, SIR