Good analogy, but it brings up a point. Is it bad for our industry that sites like this exist because it brings attention to all of us, or is it a good thing for those of us that don't do extreme sites, because it focuses the attention elsewhere?

I'm dying to hear the next point about Beaver Bob though because it looks like some real drama brewing there. Did he design the site or not? And if not, why is he being falsely accused in a public forum of being involved with a company that is under criminal investigation?

I did lend her a hand with 2 of her pages on cash4fetish. I myself did not design the site, and I had no other involvement whatsoever with the design, programming, or production of ANY of her websites other than a helping hand on 2 pages of her affiliate program.

To be honest, some of that stuff is just too far out there for me |loony|

2 pages for 10K...damn can I come work for you?

So now it sounds like the company Beaver Bob works for did indeed do the work, but he himself did not do all of it, although he did apparently just slam the work in his previous post, which doesn't makes sense. I'm guessing that his company would not be happy about an employee dissing their work.

"lol if i did cash4fetish it would look and work a lot better than it does now."

Gonzo, while agree with on most of your points taken on an individual case basis, the reality is a "whole ball of wax". In this ball of wax is a girl doing extreme bondage, soliciting for clients (for acts that most straight people would feel are at least somewhat sexual in nature, hence the revealing constumes, nudity, and the like), and a webmaster program that sends traffic into the mix from porn sites.

Nothing can be taken without context, and the context says "this is a porn site where the girl solicites for clients at $300 an hour, and then requires they are donations not fees". If this was above board, she would take the $300 as a hourly rate and not play games. By playing the old hooker game "it's not a price for sex, it's a donation to show appreciation for me", she puts herself in the same game.

Her traffic comes from porn. She acts like a hooker. She operates a "sexual" business receiving clients in a residential neighborhood. When she gets caught, she doesn't run to the S&M people for support, but tries to claim "porn webmaster" and tries to get the support of our industry.

Except for a webmaster program that cuts the webmasters out of the most profitable part of the business (the donations) she has little or nothing to do with our industry.

Oh yeah, while canaries are good, enough dead canaries can really stink a place up... especially when you didn't put them there to start with.

Alex

Sorry, but it is a well estalished legal fact that there is a large difference in this area. Please see all the legal cases that happened in the 70's regarding porn films (most people don't realize how many people got arrested for making relatively tame porn).

There is a difference, you know it, and you are just attmepting to hide behind a none too clever reading of the rules.

Alex

well its not really that cut and dry. yes, an associate of mine did some web design work for her, I had no involvement in any of it besides the 2 pages I mentioned which was to help him out. I'm not really an employee, and the guy lives downstairs from me and knows I think that site sucks and i dont even think he did that one.. lol so its no big deal. and to be honest i'm not really sure who did what where, nor do I care, nor is it realy even the point of this thread. i just know I didn't!

You may want to look up the word 'employee' in the dictionary Bob, because if you were 'employed' by that company to do any of the work -- whether you received benefits and they took out your taxes and you punched in on a clock or you worked for them strictly on a freelance basis -- you were employed by them. The point is not whether or not you consider yourself an employee, the point is that you slammed their work and if I ran that company, I'd be more than a little upset by it.

Fortunately for us pornographers, the law doesn't see it that way.

I'll find out soon enough :) I dont think he'll be too upset tho.

It doesnt matter...according to the 1st Amendment shes entitled to have that site up.

If shes pimping her ass on the side / which she says shes not/ thats an entirely different issue and Im sure that forensic van will get to the bottom of it.

It doesnt matter to me if shes hiding behind it...a ball of wax or a pile of dead birds. If the evidence concludes that shes a hooker then Im sure thats what she will be convicted of.

We have another saying in the US its "innocent until proven guilty". Right now shes just under investigation.

Anyone that knows me will tell you that I have a very vocal distaste for the scammers and thieves in this industry. Hell I just chimed in on a Zoo thread to call shaving what it really is....STEALING!

I agree with you, Tommy and Green Guy that it reflects bad on the entire industry BUT if she wasnt selling sex [like she says] then the only thing shes guilty of is bad business ethics.

Im shocked Im debating the legislation and enforcement of morality with someone else in this business.

Some of yall need to accept it like Tommy said.... we are all PORNOGRAPHERS! Your fooling yourself if you think anything else.

Yall are going to keep on and Ill come back into the B2B side of this business and it wont be pretty. hahaah

Speaking of errors in business ethics....

There's not really any such thing as legal porn because it all comes down to a particular community's stand on obscenity, but there is somewhat legal porn, absolutely illegal porn and everything in between. If you deal in 'extreme' porn, you're playing a lot closer to the illegal fence and chances are a lot better that someone from the other side can reach over and grab you.

Gonzo, it is like any undesirable part of our business. Spammers and toolbar jerks are technically a "part of our business", but like a cancerous growth, I don't have to be happy about having it and I sure would like to find a way to get rid of it.

Would wal-mart look good if it allowed people to sell crack in the entrance way to their stores because, well, they are also in the retail business?

Would the police tolerate a drive thru mcdonalds that also sold smack? Again, they are both retail businesses.

The answer is no. I was able to go to this girl's site, and within seconds figure out the entire concept. If she was doing things that were clear legal and without issue, she wouldn't ask for "donations" but would set an hourly rate like any other professional and likely even collect local sales taxes as required. She chose the words, she chose the approach, and she chose the method. I report only what I see. What I saw was someone working "off the books", taking cash donation only because if she took payments for her work, she would be charged with solicitation without delay (at least in her own mind). Crime is often about intent, and not reality.

At the end of the day, claiming to be a poor downtrodden, abuse by the man, screwed over by the cops "webmistress" isn't holding much water.

She runs an incall dungeon in a residential neighborhood. She thought that sneaking it in with the city as a "photo studio" would keep them from looking.

She runs what appears to be an incall sexual services situation in a residential neighborhood. (I use appears to represent what her neighbors would think, not what "enlightened porn webmasters might think).

She appears to solicite for prostitution or sexual situations online.

As a side note, if she is charging money to people and then put their images on the net, she is likely doing it without an enforcable model release. The basis of a model release is one of work and recompense. Since the model is both working and paying to be there, the potential is that the model releases are not enforceable because the models did not receive compensation for their appearance (and a whipping that you paid for isn't compensation).

I think the funniest part is that she appears surprised that the police showed up.

Alex

I am often amazed by how those who should be most prepared to stand up for others rights... attack from a supposed superior position... forgetting that what they are now doing was at one time considered to be completely illegal!

The way the governments are regulating all aspects of our lives... removing control of our very basic rights from us... and forming a "one world point of law"....

We all need to take advantage of each and every opportunity to speak out for the protection of the 1st Amendment and even each of the basic rights of each individual to make their own decisions to control their own lives!

Sometimes I wonder if your in the same business I am Alex....

What I find even more interesting is the sudden silence.
I see the "Empress" logged in.

How about an update?
Been charged with anything yet?
I can only figure shes logged in via other means like a cellphone or shes at Kinkos alaConfucy since all her gear got confiscated.

Or were you seeking more than advice?

You said it much better than I did Harold!
Amen!!

|buddy| BLESS AMERICA |usa

I'm jumping you here. I dont know your story. I was not there. But from what you posted something is not correct. You stated that you were in the house when the cops came in. Then you stated that you pulled up to the house and a van was in your driveway and from what I gather they were already in your house. Better calm down, get a lawyer and get your facts on point.

1st amendment arguments in the US have reached the level of, well, stupid. It has come down to a series of bizarre absolutes (everything must be free or nothing is free).

What you guys tend to forget is that looking at this whole situation, the girl was running a commercial dungeon in a residential neighborhood. I am sorry, but freedom or not, I won't want a whiphouse next door to mine. I don't want my children exposed to it, and I don't think that an commercial (receiving clinets) adult business should operate in a residential neighborhood.

Does the 1st amendment give her the right to lower the living standards of her neighborhood? Does it give her the right potentially expose her chosen lifestyle to children around that area? To bring people into the neighborhood that might find children tasty? Think hard.

More over, I think it is sad to have her come here and cry for support. It doesn't have anything to do with her online activities (otherwise her website would likely be toasted as well). It isn't our fight.

Alex, I think you want to have your cake and eat it too. You don't want a 'whip house' next door, but it's okay for you to run a porn biz from your house because your clients don't have to come to your house? You're still a deviate in the eyes of many and I guarantee you, in many parts of the country you'd be looked at with more disdain than Webwoman. Do you think people would like to have a pornographer living next door to their kids?

You seem to be completely against prostitution from what I can tell from your rant. There is absolutely no difference between a woman having sex with a guy and both of them being paid by a producer and a woman having sex with a man and being paid by the man. They are both selling their bodies, they're just being paid by different people yet according to the law, one is pandering and the other is artistic expression.

I'm with Gonzo, are you really in the porn business?

So your rights out weigh all others? Now that is the point here, isn't it? If you don't think it is right then it is wrong! Seems to me you are forgetting that you have neighbors that would feel the same way if they knew you to be a pronographer. Does that make them right?

Alex, it's not that 'cut and dried', not here in the states at least.

Literally, every person involved in any aspect of the porn biz here in the US could face a police bustdown of the door.

We have friends who are doing actual porn production, holding cameras and shooting sex, in their houses or their friends houses, and any of those good folks good hear the pounding on the door.

Cam girls, photogs and videogs, even little page builders like me could face the gloved fist and the handcuffs.

EmpressM on her contact page does seem to be soliciting - but any one of us could also be arrested if the local cops and prosecutors get a wild hair up their butt.

harold, the difference being that I don't have a stream of paying customers coming through my front door, parking on people's lawns and coming in wearing nothing but a leather hood. What I do PERSONALLY inside my house is what I do inside my house. I don't make it the neighbor's business, nor do I care what they do at home (although one of my neighbors just got a new Mac, so I am sure they are an artist type!). Just in the same way I feel she should have the right to run an adult business, I think that her neighbor's have the right to a peaceful residential neighborhood safe for children. The rights of the many (her neighbors) outweigh in my mind the rights of the few (her) to run her commercial adult business from her house. If I was running a commercial porn studio out of my house, performers, crews, and whatnot going in and out at all hours, I would expect my neighbors to be upset. That I sit in front of a computer for 12 hours a day alone doing what I do isn't changing their lives one bit, so there you go. (and as a side note, the sales rep for the builder that sold me the house was very much aware of what I did for a living... and asked for passwords and urls to check out some hot stuff... so go figure!)

Hammer, I am not against prostitution, far from it. If a girl (or guy) wants to make a living selling themselves for sex, well, so be it. As long as they play safe, stay clean, and don't hurt anyone, who gives a rat's ass? The problem is that society as a whole (for the moment) has declared prostitution illegal (except in most Nevada counties), and that isn't something I can change. Would you honestly be happy to have a whorehouse or bondage and whip club next to your home, with your kids playing in the lawn looking over at the "johns" wanding in and out of the business next door? NIMBY. You don't mind the idea, but you wouldn't want it in your back yard.

Didn't you read closely? She registered her home business as a photo studio. She didn't mention to the city that it was adult oriented. "oops". (...and no, I don't have to obtain a permit from the city that I live in for a home business unless I receive clients at the place of business).

Common sense says that sooner or later, the neighbors would complain.

Alex

Just out of curiousity Alex, but where do you think that the majority of the content on the sites that you link to on this site http://www.findpics.net/ is shot? You don't seriously believe it's all shot in a studio in a commercial district somewhere do you? So, you are willing to profit from it, as long as it isn't produced in the house next door to yours, but it's okay if it's produced in the house next door to me?

Bill, if she was but a camgirl sitting at home making movies by herself, then yes, I would be saying "our community should stand up". Realistically, this is a mistress running a public bondage dungeon in a residential neighborhood and that is a different kettle of fish.

The straight and normal porn industry is pretty much established and existing, and has so for more than 20 years. Vivid and the like are not hiding their businesses, are they?

I just have a problem with someone who appears to have flaunted the law in so many ways coming crying to us for protection and support. Should Wal-mart help the legal defence funds of drug dealers because they are both in the retail business?

It isn't very logical to me.

Alex

Hammer, I am under not legal obligation to confirm the locations that content is shot. It could be in fact shot in a kindergarten classroom for that matter, it isn't important, now is it? I don't know, I don't care, and it doesn't make a difference. All I want to know is that there are model releases for the people and the models are all of legal ages, and that no children were present or witnessed it being made. The rest is the responsiblity of the people who produce it.

Nor is that an issue here.

I don't care that she does bondage. I don't care that she runs a website. I am concerned that she is running a commercial adult business in a residential neighborhood, and I am concerned that she is soliciting for sexual acts on her website, two things that reflect badly on the industry as a whole.

I also express concern that if she is fast and loose with the laws of zoning and solicitation, might she also not be just slightly loose with the rules for 2257 and model releases? When doubt is raised in one area, the rest should be looked at too.

The police didn't come to her house without a warrant, so they surely have something to work from. Is it valid? Will it stick? Will they use it to bootstrap up some other case against her? I don't know, and neither do you. We can only go by what we have in front of us.

Alex

Oh, and if my neighbors are shooting porn, well, I don't care... as long as they don't have a flow of people going in and out the door day and night to do it.

Alex

Do you seriously believe she is so busy that she has a steady flow of clients coming and going all day and night? Certianly you realize she and her clients would also be discreet and no one is walking into her house wearing a leather mask.

Hammer, think for a minute. If your neighbor had, I don't know... 3 different people per day come to their door, parking in front of your house each time, would you not start to wonder a little bit?

Would you not wonder if they showed up at all house of the day or night (many of these people are "night" people)?

I don't deny here rights to do what she does... but a little common sense and a little time with a good lawyer could likely have kept any of this from happening.

We all have opinions. That's cool.

Alex

It would be interesting to hear more from other fetish sponsors and members of the bdsm community about this.

Is this a relatively common practice?

I know there is a fairly large (relatively speaking) underground business in femdom prostitution - a relatively safe and hi profit part of the sex worker biz, from what I understand.

Alex, all your points are good.

I was just trying to say we all have some reason to fear the fervor and prejudices of local law enforcement. In many ways, the smaller you are, the more likely you are to be harassed.

They willing to license the content?

Update...The free speech coalition has set me up with a first amendment attorney
in my area. Our appointment is on Monday at 4pm. people from the bdsm community are getting together and coming to my aid to help fight this raid. We are going to get the information we need and what the retainer will be to solve this case.
I'm and always will be upfront and helpful to all who seek help. I don't condemn people who speak their mind nor do I think your opinions are my business. You have that right.
This is about protecting all adult industry workers down the line. What you do to me will one day be you if this is not stopped now. It is because people like us who fight for the rights of all types of industry we have a chance.
If we sub divide from each other we lose the fight completely because we now are not fighting the officials who are trying to end the adult industry. We are fighting against each other just like they want us to. When this happens it allows them to continue to take steps to enforce yet another way to discredit all of us.
Yes, I built a site and yes its fetish not porn, But I also live the bdsm lifestyle and it is separate from my site. My freedom was violated because its not the norm.
I also think that if you were in the bdsm lifestyle you would understand the donation aspect and why we do that. Don't accuse me of selling sex because it is not even in the mix. My websites are more risky than my life. Because that is what the Internet craves. Do you want your private life put out for all to see. Rights are for all not just you and your adult business, Our familles would not want to live next door to a vanilla sex site either because its not what we believe. But I work in more than one type of business just like you...lifestyle is not the same as a website.Alot is acting and modeling to make money just like you.
Remember when you put my content up you thought that it was fine.
I did not come here to cry or anything like that. I came to say I will fight because I'm right. And all my records and zoning and what I do is in order ... They were hoping it was not. No arrest and no charges we made. But they looked puzzled by the proof that came from them in the first place..The town approved my business the court while in bankruptcy officially made it a priority to make me prove every aspect of my business before they issued me the right to declare my income as legitimate.
I had to document and take pictures of everything and submit it to the judge and as far as taxes every penny goes into my business account that the trustee monitors to ensure my income stays intack.I cant fool or hide anything from them. They have made me do all the paperwork necessary to stay up to date on my payments.
The town when they discovered this on Wednesday was shocked that they did not research me a lot better than they did. BECAUSE what this comes down to is the fact that they told me it was O.K.. It is all in writing. From them.
that's why the free speech coalition is willing to take my case.
I may have been raided but I will not be violated.
still dont know the real reason becase no search warrant was shown to us.
another reason why i seek help. Its our right to see one.

No, they won't license it... it's all exclusive! |headbang| |headbang| |headbang|

Well said.

Alex, after rereading my last post to you, let me state that I did not mean for it to appear as a personal attack on you..... and am thankful you didn't respond as if it was.

I do have to agree that something smells very fishy about what little we know about this situation...

one: according to webwoman.. the investigators claimed to have come with warrant in hand, but refused to produce it upon request (which it should not have been neccessary to request it... should have been the first thing they did upon contact... hand it over) which smells pretty bad in itself.

two: the guy (that brought you to the conclusion that she has traffic flowing through her residence) walking up through the cops *money in hand* speaking out asking for his spanking. What kind of person would do this with cops all over the place? I know a lot of rather Hmmmm... how do I say crazy fu**ers, and for the life of me I don't think even the craziest would walk through cops to pay to get a spanking. So that smell a heap of rotten fish to me....

I do not trust the law enforcement community... they lie, cheat, and break laws... in the name of upholding the law..... They are sworn to up hold the law ... so to me their lying, cheating, and most of all BREAKING THE LAW makes them worse than the lowest snake in the grass.

Being a Libertarian, I basically believe a person has the right to do anything they want to do... as long as it does not interfere with the right of someone else to do the same.

I am extremely concerned about individual rights and freedoms... which are being eroded faster than water flows from a ducks back. I simply believe that if we don't take the time to speak out against the wrongs committed against others then soon we will have no choice but to walk in line all the way to slaughter.

Do I think she is being setup? Yup. Do you think that setups happen without there being enough truth to support them?

Two wrongs don't make a right (but two Wrights made an airplane). The actions of the law enforcement people doesn't make running a commercial adult business in a residential neighborhood any better. I think that some her story is missing (like I wonder how many donations get actually declared to the bankruptcy court, example)... I think that not everything in this situation is kosher, and I am sure the police / LE people are counting on it.

Alex

So the zoning part of this debate should presumably be dropped. It's not the issue.

Thinking about this reminded me about free porn pages advertising adult dating sites like AFF and so many others.

From what I've heard, most of these adult dating sites are basically just fronts for escorts and prostitutes. Most of the female "profiles" are fakes or escorts. I've read articles from the escort community describing how to use the adult dating site sto get paying customers.

But I see a lot of people selling the adult dating stuff.

Isn't that soliciting? Selling soliciting services, at least?

Bill, no, the zoning is still an issue - courts often issue contridictory rulings, or issue ruling that don't take into consideration other issues. What a bankrupcy court said about the validity of the business (a photo studio) can still stand in violation of zoning laws. People often forget that when you are dealing with the left hand, the right hand has no idea what you are up to.

Is running a dungeon for photoshoots legal? I think the answer is yes. Is running a photostudio in your house legal? If you have a permit, then you are good to go. Running an adult business in an residential area, well.. who knows?

Obviously the setup guy (the guy running up with cash in hand for the mistress) shows where they are going - prostituion and operating an adult business.

I also get a feeling that the "victim" here is splitting some legal hairs through all of this. Just a feeling, no proof... but I feel some shift in the story.

interesting and potentially relevant stuff:

http://www.pervscan.com/2003/08/30/is-sm-sex/

http://www.io.com/~ambrosio/law/law.html

http://gloria-brame.com/domidea/rumpoule.htm

It goes on an on...

Bill, when I say soliciting, it is "soliciting for a sexual act". Newspapers will not knowingly list ads for illegal services, and often they will have rules as to what can be run and what cannot be run. It is a very fine line. Remember, escorts per se are not illegal (they sell time, not sex) but it is a very, very fine line between X and Y.

Alex

I guess my first question is this:
How much for a spanking?
How much more if I jerk off while being spanked?

I've been reading this thread with a certain amount of speculation and interest. I don't know why we'd care who designed her sites or care whether or not the designer gives two shits.

I don't understand why it's so wrong for a pornographer to have opinions about certain types of porn. Are we all supposed to line up behind webwoman and faithfully support her because she's a pornographer and by golly we porn people stick together? Fuck that. Those of us in the traffic business make judgements on porn everyday by listing or not listing sites or galleries that contain content that we may or may not feel comfortable with. Who amongst you is so vehemently opposed to infringing the first ammendment rights of your fellow webmasters that you list every fucking link submitted to you? Anyone?