OK I have a couple of nice complaints...:)

*I dont like LL that doesnt let you know if they accept your sites or not. So you have to check BY HAND if your sites have been listed - you know, searching through all the links to see if you find a domain that belongs to you. I think the rejection/acceptance emails are great.

*I dont like the recips that doesnt look good in Firefox. Sometimes I have to take my time to change the codes to make them look nice but Im not an HTML expert and sometimes I dont even know how to do it.

*Another thing that pisses me off a little is when the "submition form" page doesnt have a link to the recips and its link is a blank one. The reason: I enter the webmaster page, grab a recip and then when I click on the "submission form" I just want to go there and fill the fields...BUT sometimes that link opens in a new window so the form page is in the last tag of Firefox. I lose time closing the old window and looking for the new one. Maybe im being picky but It kinda pisses me off. I rather webmaster pages that doesnt open in new windows

*Weird terminology. Sometimes LL use not so common words to name the categories and it could be a pain in the ass when you're trying to submit a site. An expample that just comes up to my mind: I think its fine to name a category "ebony" or "black" but itd be not so good to name that category "dark women" coz it would be really hard to find and it maight make you think that LL doesnt list that category at all.

Then Im not very happy by some other things that im sure have been already posted here like: blurry ilegible verification codes, the 24 hs thingy, etc

I'm heading on a small vacation tomorrow, but I do want to leave this thread stuck here while I'm gone so that others can post.

So far, I personally think this thread is GREAT & long overdue. When I get back, I do want to look into a lot of these issues, especially those that I know I can handle on my end without effecting anyone else (like the 24 hour thing) Omn other issues, I will have to open a discussion with other Link Lists & then go from there.

My whole problem is that - as we all know - I can't do any of this on my own without causing a lot of problems for submitters as well as LL owners. And I don't mean for that to come off like I have a big head or I think I'm something special, because I'm not. But something that MrMaryLou said to me struck me as odd when we were talking about rules & reviewing: there are quality submitters that submit free sites to Smut Gremlins that have 20 total pics that no longer submit to me - and I have a problem with that. Not because I think I deserve to be submitted to, but because I think that submitter deserves to submit to both LL's (and as many others as possible) on an even level.

I'm not dumb enough to think that would ever come to fruition thru the entire internet - nor am I nuts enough to think that I could make it happen. But an open discussion about what upsets the regular free site submitters out there is a step in the right direction |thumb

So continue to post - even if someone already mentioned it - and we'll go from there |shake|

Being as it sounds like you're looking at the entire model and not just the little quips, let's look at this from a bit broader perspective.

When building, there really isn't anything more of a pain in the ass than the entire submission process. Forget the little things like image verification, just the entire act of submitting to multiple linklists, especially multiple mirrors takes too much time, causes too much concern over different rules or who is listed with whom and is so damned repatative it's bordering on insane.

Yeah, I know there are problems with submission software, but let me bring up Useless' brilliant idea of 1 hosted form that could submit to numerous linklists depending on the submitters choice of lists she would like to submit to and the submission just gets queued at different linklists for review.

I don't build mirrors, and I can tell you now, that if I could fill out one submit page instead of 12-20, I'd be a much happier camper.

To go a step further, and steal another one of Useless' brilliant ideas (I love setting him up for blame), being as recip collecting seems to be a fairly large complaint among submitters, we as LL owners could create pre-grouped recips that are generic enough to work for everyone.

Let's say a submitter wants to build an anal sex site, so she goes to whatever hosted domain we set up and he clicks on anal. There's a list of the participating partner linklists with radio buttons next to them. She picks let's say 12 linklists, hits build and the script builds an entire non-styled recip table based on recips the LL owners have already pre-approved. Copy and paste and the recip table is done, no recip harvesting or stripping out of styles.

Yes, these would be pretty significant changes, but just blame Useless! |goodnight

I don't think the question should be so much what pisses me off...it is what is pissing the surfer off. Personally, I love all of the extra exposure to advertising that you get from a freesite vs. a tgp gallery.

A lot of surfers that grew up on TGPs may not have any tollerance for this.

Some really good points have been brought up in this thread!

As a submitter I agree with the image verification. I always get them wrong at least once. Some LL's like Penis Bot and Wet Place have them but are really easy to see. The ones with ten letters with the lines thew them are the ones I mean. Even with my glasses on I can't get them right!

The LL owners who request to be grouped with certain LL's. I have had to stop submitting to some of them. I would end up with 20 plus receipts on one page if I didn't, and I don't think it looks right.

As a LL owner you can put what you want as a receipt to my site as long as my url is in there I'm happy. But where the are they getting my old receipt button??? I'm getting a lot of submitters that are using it and it's been over a year since I removed them |angry|

Other than that I'm happy with the ones I submit to at this point.

I would love to open up my submissions to everyone - I had the opportunity to check some of the submits that normally go straight to the trash bin that I never see today - and as usual there were the batches of group submitters and paid submitters that have been around forever although I see their number has increased amazingly.

I also noted some of my regular submitters(including at least one that has posted in this thread) have gone to autosubmitting without checking their work - damn shame that they got sucked into that game.

As a LL owner I would love to see category recips go completely away - they have no value any more in my eyes as the SEs certainly dont give any value to recips any more - and the only value to even having a recip at all is the little trickle of traffic that free sites send to the LL occasionally (those 1 hit every 3 days actually do add up over time) - but then that is something I will bring up in talking with other LLs.

The only reservations I have with Iframing and JS is the percentage of people that misused it when we did allow them - they are great for ads - but unfortunately they are so easy to fuck the surfers with - and that doesnt do anyone any good.

I have allowed the html pages for images in the past with one banner as Ive always felt it was better conversions and better for the SEs
Consoles on the other hand are again something that I just cant see happening on free sites - again its a surfer trust issue.
Someone mentioned the sponsors consoles - I guess there are some of us that still do check the links going out of the free sites for screwed up console chains and surfer tricks - and there are some LL owners that have bans on specific sponsors because of that - its an issue that a free site builder has to deal with when comparing listings and traffic to conversions.

Gwad I hate:

Category recips with html error in them. Come on people, learn to close your html tags! (and in the correct order)

Image verification that is posted on the page below the submit button.

LL's that burry free sites.

Any rule that seems absurd at 3 three in the morning when I just want to get the damn site submitted and go to bed.

No mixing of softcore and hardcore – shit, most hardcore sex scenes start out as softcore – or do we have to skip the foreplay and get straight to the fuckin?

One more thing, since someone mentioned categories - vague categories that leave me baffled, or categories that are too specific and don't leave room for anything more general. For example, in Porn Movie Links where you have big tits hardcore, big tits lesbians and big tits solo, but nothing for big tits, guy on girl softcore. Seems like a shame to have good freesites fall between the cracks for that.

Thing is, I make the freesite first, then check the categories. I would like to see LL's make room for every kind of FS that is legitimate, so that if we can't submit it to any specific category, maybe some catch-all category?

Oh, forgot to add - enjoy your holiday Greenie :)

Amen to that :) If anything, I feel it's detrimental to both parties having that straight A>B B>A link trade.

Personal LL gripes:

I don't really have any tbh. It's a simple part of the business, though the only thing I'd be pleased to see is some slight relaxation on what is considered a blind text link. And even that is only because I had to say something :D

thats awesome post with all the things I can think of,
but Link O Rama is one of the best LLs, because you send acceptance, rejection emails fast, don`t have backlog, so the submitter knows where he stands and the fast communication is a must have and you have it :)
Awesome job

Warning: Long post ahead
 

I think that's something that doesn't get discussed enough (at least in public). While I like the link list paradigm, where the surfer is exposed to more advertising on the free site pages in order to view the porn pics/vids, I do think that this design is clearly more for the benefit of those trying to make sales, and not the benefit of the surfers.

Yes, I know that all the Good (white hat) link list owners are very concerned about taking care of the surfers, and do a lot to keep their own sites, and the free sites to which they link, as free from anything malicious as possible. We all know that loyal bookmarkers are valuable and we don't want to do anything to chase them away.

I'm wondering though...are we really doing enough to interest and keep them in the first place? Sure, a nice clean link list with tons of links to free porn is worth bookmarking for many surfers. But once surfers are aware of the variety of ways they can get to the porn of their choice, is the link list really going to be their 'favorite' place anymore?

Personally, I don't look for porn on link lists, and here's why: Too many damn clicks to get to the first pic in a series, or the first video clip.

Starting from when the surfer first decides he wants to look at some porn, he may need to hit the link list's warning page, then a main page, maybe then a category page and maybe a sub-niche from that page, then find a description that sounds like it might be something he'd like to see, then click that link, then another warning page with another search for the enter link, then a main page, then find the link to gallery one (not always easy) and click that link, and ...

...and yes, finally there --- and finally get to see that not only is this action sequence not exactly what he wanted to see, but the people in the pics aren't very interesting-looking to his particular taste or interests at the moment.

Sure, all he need to do at that point is go back to the link list page and try his luck again at picking a description that sounds like it just might lead to something he wants to see. Kind of like some weird form of porn gambling with the house stacking the odds against him though. But who knows, maybe the link list design is really for the porn surfers who love to gamble?

Either way, he's at least 5 pages/clicks from porn at the start, or maybe more if he goes through sub-category pages first.

Then, once he knows he's not interested in the pics in the first gallery, he may need to back out to the link list, which is another 3 back button clicks, or maybe he can close the free site gallery page and be back on the link list page. Either way, he's still at least 4 pages/clicks away from knowing if he's looking at porn he's interested again.

I think that whether a surfer grew up on TGP sites or not, many of them will have favorite places where they know they can easily, and with as few steps as possible, get to the specific kind of porn they're interested in seeing at the moment. And for some, that will mean the link list and free sites. But I think there are a lot of surfers who choose to hit TGP/MGP sites because they get a look at the action and the people involved in it before they waste another long sequence of clicks to take their first look again.

I don't have the solution to this (or maybe I just don't want to talk about it yet), but I think we have to come up with some ways to keep the surfer interested in all the clicks required if we want more of them to come back and play our game again day after day. Almost anyone can make money off the AOL-newbie traffic, but selling porn to the growing audience of surfers who've been on the Net awhile is another story.

Time for more coffee. Sorry about the long post if you didn't find it interesting.

:)

As usual, Simon has several great points in his post.

I believe that this thread might be about "rules that piss us off" or "recips gathering nightmare". But, it also might be about realization that LL/TGP model is somewhat outdated.

Before I go hide behind the couch, let me give you some of my points:
1. LL/TGP model is what? 10-15 years old?
2. Advertising on LLs/TGPs/FSs/Galleries is of the same age. (banners, text links)

I believe that LLs have to "speed up" selling porn. Surfers are used to quick navigation (social bookmarks, rss feeds, tags, personalization)

I tried to experiment a bit with my hub, added voting, commenting and tagging. What I saw from my (still young) experiment, people use tags a lot more than categories links. They also love to click on tag cloud thing. That might be an idea for link lists. Maybe Useless Warrior has some more valid input on this.

Other idea is to, instead of recips, we use Digg-style buttons for voting on free sites. For example, surfer might want to bookmark my free site on Link-o-Rama and clicks on [Add to Linkorama] button. Then he/she gets back to LOR, looks at bookmarked sites, etc.

Also, a RSS feed with newest free sites listed at LLs, with LLs own advertising might be good for bottom lines.

I tried to inovate the linklist some, but nobody really bit on it:

http://www.xxxpornmovielinks.com

What's different?

1. Everything is thumbed but still uses the freesite format, so it seemed more familiar to the tgp surfer:

http://www.xxxpornmovielinks.com/lin...re_movies.html (it seemed webmasters were too lazy to crop a thumb)

2. The category page link directly to the "menu" pages of each site:

http://www.xxxpornmovielinks.com/ind...es.html&next=1 (thus bringing down the number of clicks to see the content)

3. The warning pages were still linked from the "details" pages:
http://www.xxxpornmovielinks.com/details/4643/ (so the warning pages were getting linkbacks and SE benifit)

I thought it was a good go-between hybrid for surfers and submitters, but (for the most part) people slept on it.

As much as I had to say it, I've never seen a crowd that fears inovation more than the linklist crown. What worked in 1999 is not going to keep working in 2009, even as much as we'd like it to.

I'm really happy Greenguy got this thread going...it's the best thread that had been on GG&J for some time.

i'm going to have to agree that the die hard 24hr rule is frustrating. I got all my submit sites ready to submit as I type this but have to wait another 30 minutes before I can click submit and I want to go to bed. ... arg

OK so I got one :)

Title of today's freesite: Amateur Interracial Lesbians - Of the 20 LLs I sub to, that title was too long for two of them. One I changed the title in the form to Amateur Interacial Lesbos (script auto-chopped the title), hopefully the reviewer will accept that as being close enough to the on-page title. The other stated no more than x amount of characters, but the sub went through with the original title so guessing that's a request rather than a set-in-stone rule.

A little thing, but enough to bug you when you have subbed to half the LLs and can't change the on page title :)

I have another, more of a rant really.

When LL owners deny your freesite for having a recip on your page that doesn't exactly match what they want you using. When in reality... that link being different from the thousands of identical ones they have forced others to use is probably helping and not hurting the site. Go figure..

After thinking about it some, this thread is starting to scare me. Seems most of us are pissed at pretty much the same things and some of the solutions that have been mentioned are centralized submit sites where you can grab premade recip tables and submit to many sites with one click, more uniform rules etc etc.

I thought some of the beauty of the LL/freesite model was variety, but these suggestions would do the opposite and create more uniformity.

And how much trouble is it to grab the correct micro-micro-niche recip? Most of us probably submit to 4-5 categories at most on a regular basis. Grab the recip once and your done.

As for the 24-hour rule that many have, that's easy too. If you submit every day just push your schedule ahead by one minute the next day and you're good to go. You can submit daily for a long time without having to take a day off.

If it's too much trouble to find the correct recip on the 50 or so LLs that are worth submitting to (I inflated that number so my sites might be included) and managing your time, well, they're always hiring at Wal-Mart and McDonalds. It pays about the same as a mid-level adult webmaster and the hours are much better.

I have to agree with you here, I don't think it does any good to have everyone the same, and some of my gripes - longer titles, more flexibility with links out etc. are because I'd like to be able to add more variety to my own sites. With a more flexible freesite model, it would be easier to change templates around, make things look different and try new things in terms of visuals and marketing.

and here too. Really, the recip thing kind of bugs me. I'm sure my system isn't that different from most others - I have a master list of recips, both buttons & text, that I just plug on the page & arrange the way I want it. Then with each submit page open in my browser I cut & paste into the form fields. Most LLs will have some notice if they've changed anything, and if it's a recip I just go in, grab it & change it on my site on the fly, adding it to the master table as well. Takes maybe 5 minutes from grabbing to re-uploading, not even. Generally, LLs aren't changing or adding recips every day, so chances are you won't have to do that all the time. And it's only the one time, once you change your master table. I did it this way even when I was subbing mirrors, and it never really bugged me that much. Maybe that's because as an LL owner as well, I realize a lot of work goes into those recips.

Having said that, I've been making some changes too, and I may be moving to non-catogorized recips anyway. But just thought I'd throw that out there, because I really don't see it as a big problem personally, and as a submitter, I really don't expect everything handed to me on a silver platter.

I hope the Linklist model will be around for a long time, I always liked surfing them better. I think it attracts a different type of surfer, one that likes the buildup and anticipation more, likes the 'story' and natural progression of the freesite. If LLs were all the same, they'd be tgps :D

I'll shut up now, this has all been just my opinion and my big mouth |potleaf| :D

This is very true!|cry|

Hey Greenie,

I think most surfers these days are looking for visual previews and want to be able to find things easier so this means more tags and better on site search engines. There is a balance with this, I know because "spent" surfers won't sign up to paysites....but something should change in this regard.

For webmasters:

- The submit only 1 site a day rule. It isn't 1999 anymore. This business is not easy. If someone is willing to work hard and put in the extra work each day, if possible let them submit more sites. It would be very hard for someone to make a living doing this just by submitting one site a day.

- Whois privacy, hosting bans, etc. If I want to hide my whois, it may have more to do with privacy implications involved in giving out my personal information than if I am a scammer. What if I would be willing to give you a phone number (or ICQ) in such a case in order to verify things instead of banning?

-Unlisted rules. Frustrating. No one wants to waste their time.

-Communication. Ideally people would at least be notified each time their site was rejected, and even better why.

I know it is tough to do all this. I used to have a linkslist myself and it ended up going dead. But these are some of the issues, and solutions would should be explored.

I don't think LL and TGP have any of the blame anymore for too much free porn. Even though you don't want to talk about it, I think the rapidshare sites are definitely responsible for the mostly rising ratios.

Years ago I used to look at my stats and see forums sending me hundreds or even thousands of hits a day to my free sites by users linking to them themselves. Nowadays if I go on a forum and link directly to a gallery, even if it has 200 MB (!) of 1 minute clips in it -- all free -- the surfers will come on "What are you kidding? Don't post these little 1 minute clips! SPAM! SPAM!" and then soon I will get banned by the owner [you used ot be welcomed by the forum owners when you did this without going overboard]. They all expect 20 minute videos on rapidshare or megarotic now. You know things are bad when you can't even give the stuff away..... In no way are the linkslists and the TGPs responsible for this debacle anymore. As you hint, if they started going to 10 pictures per site, they would soon lose all their bookmarkers and again, they won't even be able to give the stuff away................

That is sad. These forums should be reported for promoting stolen material though, IMO. I wonder if some sponsors who are being hurt by their stuff being circulated like this would ever sue.

While I agree with most of what you've said, and the general tone of your post (I don't think this should be made too easy, myself), I really don't get your one minute delay method. Submitting to 20 lists takes more than one minute, if this is your delay, you're bound to mess up on some LL's and hit the submit button too soon. One hour I can see, but one minute?

I think he means just time the submits to the ones that have a 24 hour limit. If you submit to two sites sites that both have the time limit, then just keep track of those two and submit a minute or two later.

I only submit to one with the 24 hour rule and thats greenguy's, so it's easier for me to submit. I think the midnight to midnight time frame would work way better for the generally webmaster though.

Brad

I agree (again). If I submit at 6:00 a.m today and this afternoon have a site ready to submit tomorrow, but I have to do things in my "non-porn" life in the morning and have to leave at 6:00 a.m. I can't submit at 5:30 so I'm screwed. I submit when I get back at 10:00 a.m. then the next day I have to wait until 10:00 to start submitting. Every day it gets worse.

I hope link list owners see this thread and implement some of the ideas mentioned. |thumb

Believe me it works just fine, I do it all the time. On Monday if you start submitting 12:01, start 12:02 on Tuesday. 24 hours and 1 minute will have elapsed.

If you want to be 100% certain of no overlap push your schedule ahead by 5 minutes every day. One month later you'll start your submits start at 2:30.

How many of us can say we go 30 days straight without missing a day of submission?

Definetely not me. |waves|

However, I also think 1 minute is a bit much for myself. 5 minutes would probably work for me as I know submitting to 20 LL's per site each day, I can't get my site submitted to all of them in the exact same amount of time each day. However, I think that LL owners could easily set this rule to around 20 hours or even do away with the rule all together and make things a bit better.

I do not personally see a reason to set a rule on amount of subs a linklist gets (within reason). They are either quality sites or they're junk or maybe somewhere in between. You list it or you don't.

target="blank" on recip and submit pages

Hell, how many browser windows do you think I need open?

You would be surprised at how many sponsors are the ones posting this material - same as the old password sites where sponsors used to put up "stolen passwords" and link them to special areas of their paysites to get more conversions - heck most of the password sharing sites used to be owned by sponsors :)

yeah for sure.. I think webmasters know how to open a new window if they want one.

:D

When did this stop working..?

|jester|

I see you've all been busy while I was gone :)

I'll catch up on this tomorrow.....

I've been reading this thread with interest, wondering if I should post my thoughts (which are a bit jumbled). I've decided to jump in.

I don't make a lot of free sites anymore and when I do I find it to be a chore. I feel like I'm jumping through a lot of hoops that weren't there when I started. Yes, I remember the old days (which, for me, was in 2000) and it's hard not to get nostalgic.

I feel like the free site format has calcified, and that's a problem. There's no room for originality, for coming up with different ways to entice a surfer to buy. The strict format of four pages and only three outlinks per page means that making free sites is a "factory" process, one that suits the reviewer rather than the builder or the surfer. This, of course, reflects that the linklists have more power than the submitter.

(And I suspect this knowledge is why every man and his dog (and me) has now opened a linklist).

I have no solutions, of course. I fully understand why all the rules have evolved and the current situation with a million cheaters bombarding linklists, but I just feel the need to express a frustration at the stagnation that's occurred.

The other thing I think about is how Google's changes affect the linklist world. The reciprocal link thing is not working anymore. The idea that a single freesite might receive search engine traffic seems pie-in-the-sky sometimes. The major linklists get all the SE traffic because they're older and have built up more one-way links. So is there a new way to link and be listed that will benefit both parties? I have no idea.

Like others I don't like the hype surrounding the term "Web 2.0" but it's worth discussing where linklists and freesites fit in with blogs, social networking sites, video sharing and user-generated content.

Regina Lynn at Wired makes a really good point in this article:
http://www.wired.com/culture/lifesty.../sexdrive_0809
Porn is hamstrung when it comes to newer web technology because of two things - the 2257 laws and a desire not to lose control of copyrighted material.

All the new Web 2.0 thingies are about getting stuff for free. Some days I feel like hiding under my desk because I worry that the subscription model is old hat (it's not, of course, that why we still make money). Linklists are still about giving stuff away for free but, as has been mentioned before, it's not instant.

I'm not sure where I'm going with any of this, it's off the top of my head. I'll just post it anyway, might add something later.

Just a quick addition to what has already been said here. Sometimes you have a FS that matches several categories, or doesn't match any one category perfectly, so you try to pick the best fit possible. Sometimes the LL owner disagrees, which is fine, and you get the rejection: Wrong Category. Unfortunately I already gave my best guess so chances are slim my next guess will match the LL owner's thoughts. If he is willing to send a 'Recommended Category: XYZ' response with the denial that would help a ton.

I have to say I'm actually fairly happy with the current set up and relationship between link lists and free sites. Yeah the 24 hour thing can be terribly annoying, the impossible to read verification image things are a big pain in the ass, but overall I am happy with how things work. I mean geez, a little work and effort should be expected. This aint hard stuff, this is easy shit, some of the mundane things just take a little time and effort. Maybe since I've probably made and submitted 400-500 free sites in the last 1.5-2 years it comes as second nature to me and is programmed into my little brain. Making and submitting free sites and running my link list is my job and how I put food in my kid's mouths and I must say I am happy with things. Just like Lemmy said, if its too difficult or too much of a pain in the ass, Walmart is always hiring, but I've fucking worked at Walmart before, and I must say the work, the hours and pay per hour are much much better playing the free site game as it is currently set up.

Ditto - I also like LL's that tell you which catagories they need (or would like) content in and which ones are over used. This helps split the fine hairs on decisions like this.

OK - before I go any further, these are the tings I want to get some threads going on as far as possible changes:
24 hour submit rule
Accept AVS sites
Allow mixing soft & hardcore content
Allow multiple submtis per day
Allowing Java Script & Flash
Counters
Decrease the minimum number of pics
Image Verification too hard to read
Increase the number of ads/banners/links per page
More options instead of the standard 4 page free site
Multiple Links In Recip Code
Niche Specific Recips - getting rid of them as well as not rejecting for using the wrong one
Pics on html pages
Private Whois
Recip Grouping
Sending out rejection emails
Shorter backlog - post your backlog
Templates
the number of words/characters you can use in the title and/or description

Am I missing anything?

Looks about right to me GG, most things on the list I don't ave a problem with, but I'll be in a on a few topics there :D

How about allowing Flash too? I used it for my warning text on some sites but started getting declined at a few places for using it.