Originally Posted by Cleo (Post 422764)

So does this mean that if these securities that the government was bailing out do default then trillions of dollars in Credit Default Swap contracts will become due?

Originally Posted by Bill (Post 422375)

People said that?

Bwah-hah-hah-hah-choke-sputter-cough.

But you're right, thats a whole nuther discussion.

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I thought what Ben Stein said about credit default swaps being the real problem, the HUGE problem hidden behind the mortgage bailout, is relevant.

http://finance.yahoo.com/expert/article/yourlife/109609

"Here s one big part of the answer. First, the alert reader will notice that Ben Stein said many times that the amount of money at risk in the subprime meltdown was just not enough to sink an economy of this size. And I was right...to a point. The amount of subprime that defaulted was at most - after recovery in liquidation - about $250 billion. A huge sum but not enough to torpedo the US economy.

The crisis occurred (to greatly oversimplify) because the financial system allowed entities to place bets on whether or not those mortgages would ever be paid. You didn't have to own a mortgage to make the bets. These bets, called Credit Default Swaps, are complex. But in a nutshell, they allow someone to profit immensely - staggeringly - if large numbers of subprime mortgages are not paid off and go into default.

The profit can be wildly out of proportion to the real amount of defaults, because speculators can push down the price of instruments tied to the subprime mortgages far beyond what the real rates of loss have been. As I said, the profits here can be beyond imagining. (In fact, they can be so large that one might well wonder if the whole subprime fiasco was not set up just to allow speculators to profit wildly on its collapse...)

These Credit Default Swaps have been written (as insurance is written) as private contracts. There is nil government regulation of them. Who writes these policies? Banks. Investment banks. Insurance companies. They now owe the buyers of these Credit Default Swaps on junk mortgage debt trillions of dollars. It is this liability that is the bottomless pit of liability for the financial institutions of America."

There are as much as $60 trillion (with a T) at stake in the totally unregulated CDS market - and those "bets" have to be paid by somebody, and nobody realy knows how many of those bets have become due.

The point is, we are deep in uncharted territory. Our economy stopped being about productivity, and has become "virtual" - based on financial manipulations nobody really understands.

Ben Stein ends with this....

"As I said, the pit of loss is bottomless. Warren Buffett, the smartest man of all time in the world of finance, has called financial derivatives - of which Credit Default Swaps are a prime example - "weapons of financial mass destruction." And so they are. As with the hydrogen bomb, no one thought they would ever be used to end the world. But unless someone figures a way out - and maybe the new RTC is and maybe it isn't - we are in real peril. This should never have happened. Now that it did happen, should the taxpayer pay to make the billionaire speculators whole on their bets? What the heck is to be done?"

Originally Posted by Megan Essog (Post 423071)

I wish someone would bail me out ;)
No one comes to my aid when I'm broke!

Originally Posted by Jim (Post 423081)

Someone probably would if you being broke caused millions of others to be broke :)

Something has to be done to release credit again. I have spoken to a few friends that own businesses and they are hurting more than any of us. One, a car dealer, can't seem to get anyone a loan. Another, the owner of a large office furniture manufacturer, could not get this weeks payroll and...their building loan went from 1.3% to over 3 percent. The increase of the loan is about $8k/week.