Actually, let me correct Surfn here: Cheaters and honest people both want to know. Cheaters will profit from that information much more than honest people would.

Again, it comes to numbers: If I can get rid of 100 cheaters and as a result also decline 1 honest webmasters, I cannot and will not change policies for that 1 person in order to create 100 more problems for myself.

I also will not provide information that will allow those 100 cheaters to circumvent policies put in place to stop them from fucking my surfers over and wasting my time.

I will also say this: The list of "banned hosts" is fluid. If I said "goodhost.com" is not banned, and that I will list everyone there, then all the cheaters will move over there tomorrow and I will be fucked again.

If I get fucked too often, then I will have to charge to review sites, because the time required to handle it would be too high.

Alex

thanks for detailed reply. =)

just wanna add a few things to previous posts made by Yahook, Scooter and me.

1) nobody clearly stated what are you fighting against. I do understand your position when you talk about cp or other illegal shit. yes. hosting company must prevent such kind of activity. but when you're are talking about cheaters who redirect traffic from freesites in example, I do not understand, how can hosting company prevent this. they do not do anything illegal, right? the reason why I'd want to clear this up is that I know some hosting companies which are banned, but they never hosted any illegal stuff. so we are coming to a conclusion: poster should be hosted with wellknown company like isprime, webair or something like that. I believe this is stupid. if I know some good and honest hosting provider, whose pricing policy is more attractive for me than isprime's one I think I can use it. you think I can't, because you don't know this hosting provider (you don't know who are this guys so they are possible cheaters. that's a normal psychological reaction). that's what is usually called 'conflict of interests'. everybody should make his or her own choice - would they rather host their sites with hosting company they like or submit this sites to link lists which do not like this hosting company. business is always finding a compromise. but. business has at least two sides. in our situation those sides are posters and owners. the only reason for this discussion is that some link list owners play unfair. you want poster to everything while you do nothing. at least you could send a one-time banning notification. cheaters won't read it, for a honest poster it can be useful. you want us to respect your work, and we do so. the only thing we want from you is to show some respect to our work. that's first.

2) I believe banning for own nameservers is stupid. 'bogus whois hosting'. lol. do not give access to the shared blacklist to those idiots who do not know what is dedicated server. it wouldn't be a problem, but it is, because some owners just ignore appeals.

3) all the hosts mentioned in this topic are Russian hosting providers. in fact almost all Russian hosting providers are banned. (I mean Russian hosting providers who allow adult material) that makes link list posting for Russian newbie* webmasters really hard and even impossible**. I know that's not your problem I'm just trying to explain why we are worrying about this so much***.


__________________
* most experienced Russian webmasters have epassporte account or credit card, so they are able to get a hosting by foreign company. but actually even for an experienced webmaster this is really incovinient due to different reasons. once again I want to point out, that not all of the banned Russian hosting providers host any kind of cheaters or illegal stuff. some of them are banned just because they are not 'known and reputated' for american webmasters.
** only when talking about link lists which ban hosting providers.
*** especially for Surfn. non of the webmasters posted in this topic are newbies.

hahaha |pokefun| only cheaters can hide there real rules lol |asshole|

Findpics rule (currently #22):

" We reserve the right to refuse listings and service to anyone. This is a private website. You can be declined, refused or have your listing removed for any reason. We reserve the right to blacklist domains, email addresses, hosts, and IP addresses without notice, and without notification. If you submit multiple sites that violate the rules, you domain(s) will be blacklisted without notice. We do NOT send decline messages. If your don't like it, get a lawyer and waste your money. :-)"

Sundiver: It isn't about getting the hosts to not list cheaters. If you think that is our logic, then you really did miss the point.

Alex

Poster rule #1
I can reserve the right to delete you from my submit base. i reserve the right to delete any recip that stays on my free sites if you don't list my sites. i reserve the right just say: "go to the hell if you're stupid webmaster!" |angry|

You are now on my banned list. I hope that's what you wanted. There is no appeal for you. Have a nice day :)

Scooter, would you like a shovel? You can dig a hole for yourself faster than just using your hands.

I wouldn't expect anyone to keep a recip up on a site that wasn't listed. I wouldn't expect anyone who is blacklisted to continue to submit to me (but many stupid people with automation tools do anyway).

YOU ARE THREATENING TO DO EXACTLY WHAT I WANT YOU TO DO.

So that isn't a threat, is it? I hope more that it is a promise.

Alex

you either didn't bother to read the whole post or didn't understand what I'm talking about.

and once again: when you ban somebody it's your own choice and your right. this dicussion is caused by adding to the shared blacklist. (bl.usefulscripts.com)

don't forget about this dude ;)
http://www.alexa.com/data/details/?u...dultlinks.com/
compare it with for example with this:
http://www.alexa.com/data/details/?u...-sex-links.com
and also i think you know that PB WP adult-list.com also own russian "cheaters" lol they cheat google hahah |pokefun|

The ban is in effect on all my sites. I see that you were getting listed on one of them. Have a nice life :)

We need to be able to add pics to posts
|pokefun|
Cos the "Digging Your Own Hole Award" has to go to Scooter and Sundiver!

You have to play within the rules that the owners and operators of LL/TGP's set forth. If they blacklist a host, you can either change hosts or not submit. It's really just that simple...it's their pages, their traffic, their rules, and if you don't like it, don't submit.

Complaining will get you nowhere...there's good reasons for blacklisting certain hosts, etc. I've had to do that on my TGP, because of the sheer quantity of cheaters coming from one host. Do innocent people get blacklisted, yep, but that's not my problem.

The question I have to ask though is, why are these people so married to their hosts? I've changed my host a bunch of times...mainly because of upgrades, etc, but it's not a biggie to change. Or, just pay for a second hosting account. LL's don't burn that much bandwidth, even a cheapy account at a place like dreamhost could cover your needs and you could use that to submit.

Honestly, you either want to play by the rules or you don't...this isn't rocket science and complaining will get you nowhere, well, it might get you on a few more blacklists :D

If you have 100+ domains it's not too easy even to change NS servers... Sure you can use two hostings at the same time, one for posting and one for your other projects. But why to spemt more time and to pay more, if you can use one hosting you like most of all?

The problem is also with shared blacklist. One ll owner decided to ban hosting company and added it to shared blacklist. Another linklist owners just use it.

Yahook, if you have a great host that nobody will list, is it truly a great host?

Due to certain "features" and "options" offered by some hosts, they attract cheaters (as well as honest webmasters) who take advantage of those tools in an attempt to get more than their fair share of listings, to get listings and redirect traffic, or to sell their traffic to toolbar companies. I often thing it is in fact the toolbar guys directly trying to fuck people over.

When you choose that host, you get the "features", but you also get the baggage. A host that limits your chances to get listed isn't exactly doing you any favors.

Sundiver: I read your post VERY carefully. Why would we want to notify anyone of banned hosts? The cheaters would run like cockroaches to the next host, and we would have to start the whole process all over again. You don't think that the host themselves isn't aware of the situation? In many cases the hosts have modified thier services specifically to disguise or obscure who they are just to help their clients screw us over. I won't post them, but there are chatboards where people spend their entire lives trying to come up with ways of fucking over link sites and TGPs.

Why the heck do you think everyone is going to partner accounts and paid submits?

Sending you a notification or saying "your host is banned" is just starting a huge game of whack-a-mole, and nobody wants to do that.

The shared blacklist (which I don't use, BTW) is just a tool like any others. I think most host bans are done on an individual level, and not as a group thing.

Alex

This is not for me but I will answer ;) I understand your position. But some linklist owners even don't understand why banned hostings are in the shared blacklist - they think that this hostings host something illegal, but they already use this shared blacklist. But we are talking about simple linklist cheating, right? So every host can be in this blacklist.

Unfortunately some guys do that, sometimes they are small linklist. They ban hosting and add to shared blacklist. The other guys use it. Some guys can even delete listed sites from this host to be sure there are no cheaters listed. Then the poster needs to change hosting because he don't know who banned him.

As for closing submit form. I think it's not too difficult to do that if you have some traffic on your linklist and big webmaster database and if it's not too difficult to get an account. Good guys who use banned hosting will contact you with the examples of their sites, and you will get lots of new posters. And this system will be rather more profitable for me too.

Lots of linklist owners who ban hostings will not write in this thread - I think they are afraid of attention of good webmasters to their linklists. Sure it's more profitable do not write at all.

And I respect very much the linklist owners who write in this thread and say the truth.

Natalie, I know Scooter, he is linklist owner too and his linklist is better than a linklist of Surfn for SE traffic for example.

Because you'll get listed :D

You have a choices you can make...here they are:

1. Stay with your host and just don't submit to LL's that have it banned.

2. Get a new host and move your pages.

3. Get a second host - use that to submit to LL's that have the first host banned.

Those are your options. If you don't want to correct the problem, that's fine, but there's no sense in complaining about it. The more you complain, the more people wonder why you're so attached to a hosting company.

We've all had to change hosting companies for one reason or another...it's not that big of a deal.

Mr. Blue, very good answer :)

But linklist poster don't know which host is not banned because LL owners hide this list.

You can understand why they hide the list? The LL owner isn't the bad guy in this situation, it's the cheaters who are abusing the system. To prevent cheaters, you take steps, you have to keep some of these steps hidden. It's like installing a safe and then giving out the combination...no one would do that :)

Just post a question on this board, "Can anyone recommend a hosting company"...people will gladly give you a list of companies, all reputable, and you can start from there :D

If you believe everything that Alexa tells you, or some other "measurement" site tools, you (and others reading this thread) might be tempted to believe that. But the truth is so far removed from what those public stats show that those in the know will be laughing long and hard at this comparison. ;)

Simon, Alexa will not show mw if you send lots of CJ or other traffic like this to your domain. But I can compare Google PageRank and Google Backward Links - I think it's enaugh to compare site for SE traffic.

I know that's what many here think, no matter how many times others post about ignoring PageRank and how Google's backlinks don't tell you the real story. So I'm just mentioning again that to get the real story sometimes requires going way beyond those "tools"... and often means you also need to know all of the domains involved (and the people who own them).

Also, since very few outside the tech world install the Alexa toolbar, quoting their stats for the adult market is almost always pretty far off the mark.

But use whatever is comfortable for you. Personally I base my decisions on other data.

Simon, I know how to check site for SE, there are lots of other ways instead of PageRank and Link Popularity. For example there is penalty for you in Yahoo:

http://siteexplorer.search.yahoo.com...m&bwm=p&bwms=p

P.S. Sorry that I'm talking about your domain, but you decided to continue it.

I don't want to say your linklist is bad, but your linklist is not good yet to get lots of SE traffic. And any backward link will help, even from "banned" hosting company and you will get lots of them with your policy, because you hide real rules. I just wanted to say from the first my post in this thread that this is not honest. But sure I'm not a god to ooint out how to do your business.

yahook - first off - thats not his domain :) Second - google has some real nice tools if you really want to see backlinks - besides the link: command which is purposely limited by Google - however if you change out the : for a | then you will see what Google really has for a site.

As far as hosts and banning - I think that most people around here know which hosts they are - and there are loads of threads where even the owners of the hosts have come in and talked about it - so a real quick search here would give you a pretty good list
As far as recips and whether a host is banned - I (and Im sure you do as well at hqpornlinks) get a huge amount of submissions every day - and a good percentage of them are non-partner or crappy sites or known cheaters

heck youve even got a list of them over on your board - and Im sure youre not sitting there worrying about those poor cheaters that you decline and their recips :)

So what you want is that everybody should have their WHOLE (email, IP's, domain, ...) blacklist fully public?

Linkster the query "domain.com" will show you all backward links...

No, I'm talking only for ban of hosting company.

Since you think it's unfair to people that use a specific hosting company that they don't know they are banned.
Isn't it unfair that people who has a banned email, domain, IP or something else that they don't know about it?

If you ban email, domain - you ban concrate cheater. But if you ban hosting company - you ban all webmasters from this host. Do you see the difference? ;)

Hi Yahook... yes, as Alex pointed out, that's not my domain. :)
I just happen to know some of the link list owners here, and am lucky enough to have access to traffic numbers that aren't as easy to find.

Now... again not just addressing this to Yahook... the real point, to me anyway, is that we seem to be discussing changing something that is in place to protect many of the most reputable link list owners. Those arguing for changes are certainly outing themselves in ways that will not help their future ability to trade 'valuable' links and grow their businesses.

This thread should have turned into a "which hosting companies can I use with all confidence?" discussion, but instead it's become a "this isn't fair" (and to whom) discussion. It's been said more than once in this thread that it's not about fair, it's about playing by the rules or not playing with the guys (and girls) who make the rules.

Interesting to me that some people don't seem to get that.

Simon

Not necessarily.
If an IP is banned, someone else might use it too.

That's not really fair to the other people who use the same IP?

Big linklist owners can close their submit pages and open an partner account system. They will protect their pages from cheaters and everything will be honest. And hosting companies will not be bannes. That's my point of view.

Sure, that's why I don't ban IP's. But there are other way to protect you from that cheaters.

Indeed! Honest hard working webmasters that want to make the most money they can and do follow the rules. |shake|

There is more profitable for webmasters to use some of "banned" hosting companies, there are lots of reasons:

1) Possibility to pay from Fethard, CG Pay, Web Money and so on.
2) 24h ICQ support - how many hosting companies have it?
3) Good price policy
4) Reliability - they know this hosting companies for a long time and they work well.

Now you posted your POV. Why don't you run your LL that way and let other people run their LL the way they want it?

Time to move on.