UW, you nailed it.

Alex

see this is where I think we are getting off the subject

From what webwoman said in her own words

the police never said anything about her websites, she doesn't know why shes been singled out but they did tell her this

I think they took her computers to prove she is charging for sex
appointments made in email and payments made, descriptions of what happens in the dungeon

instant message conversations
money records etc etc

if she was doing this in Nevada where prostitution is legal I would say she is in the right but that's not the case

also models or porn actors dont pay to be in porn videos

they get paid and the person they are having sex with is normally not the one laying out the money

I have to look at this and say what was her intention

do I beleive these people were paying 300 a hour for a sex act

or do i beleive these people where so depreate to be in a porn video they shelled out 300 a hour

Now I wanna ask the rest of you.
what do you think was really going on there ???

Ohh btw
I doubt the cops are gonna charge you with anything

but they will be back
I think they just want you out of the neighborhood and they are gonna fuck with you untill you figure out it would be easyer to operate from somewhere else

thats why they never showed you a warrant
thats why they refused to tell you anything
thats why the guy walked up with money in hand
thats why they didnt give you any paper for the stuff they took

Wow, Hammer and I agree on something.

Webwoman, I'm as much "on your side" as anyone here has been, but I didn't like this post one bit. You can't call for pervert solidarity and ask that we not infight in the face of government harassment, and then cast a stone at people who run "vanilla sex sites". It doesn't help anything to turn around the, "I don't want to live next to you, you're a weirdo!" argument on others.

Seems this was about prostitution and not pedaling smut so really it is not about the kind of business that this board is about.

That being said I find it amazing and a violation of of my right to do with my body as I see fit that it is ok to fuck a guy after he buys me dinner but not ok to fuck him if he gives me money to go shopping. Personally I much prefer the shopping money over something that I'm just going to shit out the next day.

One more post on this for now...

I'm not accusing anyone of being "prudes", I'm saying that it's weird what people get up in arms about and accuse of being derogative to the legal adult industry.

I seem to recollect that many posters on this thread who are knocking Webwoman were avid backers of Sleep Assault. In my opinion, sites such as Sleep Assault (or Meat Holes or Little April) do way more to discredit our industry as a whole (by virtue of being heavily promoted) than does one dominatrix. I don't believe that "extreme" or "taboo" porn should be *illegal* so long as it involves consenting adults, but I do think that *as members of the adult industry,* we should critique ourselves and our colleague in the interest of making a stronger adult industry. (This sort of nuanced reply is one that never seems to be grasped by so many people when I repeat it in different discussions. It's not a matter of wanting everything I ethically question to be illegal, it's a matter of having discussion about it *from within* the industry to consider what is best for all of us as a whole.)

That being said again, I just don't see why people who have no issue with porn sites that arguably encourages rape or pedo-lust get all riled up over the very *notion* that someone might be a prostitute.

And then, people are expressing that even though "prostitution" makes our industry look bad, they are pissed because they're not getting a cut of "donations" as affiliates. Make up your minds! You can't accuse someone of having illegal business dealings that you find to be "wrong", and then wonder where your pimp/revshare payment is.

Plus: As far as I know, being a dominatrix is not actually illegal if you're not having *sex* for money. Even with all the insinuations being thrown around in this discussion, there is no actual crime being committed in what EmpressM is doing. Believe it or not, but it's perfectly legal to straight-up charge someone $200 for being tied up and yelled at. Spanking someone is not prostitution. Flogging someone is not prostitution. Forced feminization play is not prostitution (Now, if you're not reporting that income, that's when you might get bothered by the IRS.)

Also, if people are so freaked out at the thought of promoting something that maybe possibly could be construed as having something to do with prostitution, then I hope you don't promote Adult Friend Finder of any dating sites. Where do you think the technologically hip hookers of new find their johns? [Ah, Bill beat me to this, I've been writing this reply while reading the thread.]

Having been in the lifestyle for more years than I care to admit (unless of course I admit to getting involved in it at the age of 2) apparently things in CT are handled differently than they are in NC, TN, VA, Washington DC, IA, and ND, as I have NEVER dealt with a "donation" situation for scenes. A monthly cover charge for munches, and a cover charge to get into clubs yes, but donations to help someone keep their dungeon up? NO. Does that mean it's not possible that some people help each other out in a bind, of course not, but to assume that everyone in the lifestyle is a "pro" that charges/accepts donations is a falacy.


THANK You Tommy! I thought perhaps I was seeing things as no one else has pointed that statement out. If she runs this out of her home following all guidelines and under a business license then she should have known the laws and they quoted her what is illegal - which happens to be something she charges a "donation" for...seems pretty clear.

And there goes the lifestyle/donation arguement.

It's bound to happen from time to time. You can't always be wrong. :D

"bound to happen"... how appropriate!

Alex

"To bring people into the neighborhood that might find children tasty? Think hard."

I was wondering how long it would take you to bring up paedophilia - can't we just cut this waffle and take the bitch out and stone her?








Divide and conquer!

[quote=doublep can't we just cut this waffle and take the bitch out and stone her?[/QUOTE]

Classless.

I was being sarcastic Gonzo!

|attention Not until I get my spanking!

I only know what I see on here since I dont know you. Sorry for jumping the gun.

Thought provoking thread on many levels nonetheless...one of the better ones Ive seen in months..


Quite a refreshing change as opposed to reading good morning greetings or cut and past of news articles.

I agree, Gonzo. The thing is that usually when a thread gets interesting and people start debating both sides of the issue someone starts shouting 'stop the pissing' and the thread gets closed. I don't care for the boards where anything goes, but as long as no personal attacks are made, I don't see anything wrong with heated discussions.

One thing I've noticed is that 5 or 6 people can sit around a table at Internext and have the same exact type of discussion that we're having here, but since you can hear nuances in the voices and detect smirks and smiles when things are said, that same exact conversation is nothing more than that, a conversation. Take that same conversation and put in in print on a board and suddenly people start reading between the lines and hearing things that weren't intended the way they are interpretting them.

For example, Gonzo and I are good friends, but if anyone didn't know that and I replied to him in a post with "Oh shut up you fat fucking nobody", those people would go ballistic and fire off PMs to the mods to get me banned.

We don't close threads because of piss & the only assclowns that get banned are spammers |thumb

NP gonzo ;-) This is an interesting thread... but in my humble opinion the last thing we need is knee jerk reactionary statements... we vote in politicians to do that shite!

People like webwomen have become easy targets for the authorities, not just in the States but in the UK too - in fact over there they are debating a ban on 'violent' pornography right now, and when they say violent, what they mean is S&M... anything of the beaten path [no pun intended] for that matter.. they may have relaxed the laws on 'vanilla' but the staffing costs of the vice squad have to be justified somehow - so lets go after someone who doesn't fit in, even if they are consenting adults.

We all know deep down where the authorities should be putting the effort in - don't we?

doublep, the question of "tasty children" really doesn't come from me or anyone here, but the logic that neighbors and therefore public officials will use. Enough people out there think that anyone who is into "recreational sex" has to also be a pervert, and some perverts are pedophiles. Why take the chance?

So, if she weighs the same as a duck....

It is one of the reasons many people in the industry don't tell their famlies what they do. Mention "I do internet porn", and they will immediately have you labelled as a spammer and CP distributor. There are built in assumptions at work.

Public officials respond to the concerns of the citizens (or their own concerns and biases). We get what we get.

Alex

CP and spamming may be built in assumptions with the general public, but we definitely don't need fellow webmasters enforcing them on adult webmaster boards. When you made the comments they weren't made to point out what other people 'might' think, you said them about how you personally felt. You said you did not want to live next door to a 'whip house' and then continued to bring up children and how they would be affected.

Alex, do excuse me, I obviously misunderstood this:

"Does the 1st amendment give her the right to lower the living standards of her neighbourhood? Does it give her the right potentially expose her chosen lifestyle to children around that area? To bring people into the neighbourhood that might find children tasty? Think hard."

I thought that was a point *you* were making in regards to the women's activities - you did ask us to think hard!

Paul.

I think what you find in this day in age is public officials whipping up distorted concerns in their citizens... hence, I took exception at the statement you made earlier...

Paul.

In the proposals, when they say "violent" they mean GBH and beyond:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/h...5_porn_doc.pdf

They also mean anything outside of the BBFC guidelines:

http://www.bbfc.co.uk/Customers/guid...lines_R18.html

In reality, "hardcore" S&M films don't really fly in the UK currently anyway.

Cheers for the PDF :) GBH is a criminal offence in the UK anyway.

"Great Britain has a long history of erotic expression — from the Skin Two Rubber Ball (one of the world's largest S&M/fetish gatherings) to London's notoriously decadent Hellfire Club of the 18th century to the dominatrix-like attire that actress Diana Rigg often favored when she portrayed sexy spy Emma Peel on "The Avengers" — and the country's demand for erotica may be at an all-time high."

S&M-oriented porn, Woodward explained, is fighting an uphill battle in Britain despite the demand for it. "Most kinkier firms do not try to sell in the United Kingdom," Woodward said. "They simply sell via websites, and U.K. citizens will order illegally if they wish to. Customs may steal the DVDs as they come into the country — hence the popularity of downloading videos from web sites rather than getting them by mail."

Tim Woodward - Skin Two Magazine Nov 4 2005

I think you will find there is a quite a demand for S&M porn in the UK.

Paul.

Absolutely Paul. There's a reason that the French (allegedly) call spanking "la vice anglaise". It's all supposed to be to do with public schools and buggery :-)

As the guy says, the demand is here, but you do run an big risk of an OPA prosecution if you publish hard S&M from the UK, so most don't.

To be honest though, when I read the kind of thing they envisaged outlawing possession of, I wasn't too sure where it fitted in with S&M in the first place.

Well the Tories aren't in power and the paparazzi are everywhere, so what did you expect? ;)

Paul, you have to always look at things from the standpoint of "how will it get played in the media:. Without a doubt, the issue of protecting children (which is what the DoJ and Bush claim they are trying to do with 2257) will come up the deal.

THe other thing to remember is that rights cannot be construed in a vacuum. The right to have a dungeon and to run a commercial "whipping for hire" busijness has to be balanced against the rights of the neighbors to lead normal lives and such. It's a give and take, no doubt.

I really do have a feeling that if this is a true occurance, then the local officials have set up a nice harrassment deal to "get those perverts out of town".

|violin|

Alex

I'm in a business district. Not residential i have 4 businesses ajacent to my home and i'm smack in the middle. A car dealership is in my back yard 3 stores a strip mall.
up the street is a porn shop and a head shop further down .i also have a rug company
and dunkin donuts right here in my back yard ..what the hell are you saying ..half of my dam house was zoned a business. for that matter the whole thing could be if i wanted it to ...but because i live in it its half and half...get the facts not hear say please.

Hi Jeremy :) As Woodward say's, there is a lot of stigma against the S&M community in the UK, hence publishers move their operations outside of the UK legal jurisdiction and opt for delivering their products electronically - this suits them and their consumers, who find it safer to download, keeping the prying eyes of customs at bay. This brings me back to my original point, this makes it harder for the authorities to catch publishers and consumers at home - so they go after soft targets just like webwomen. As I said, these guys have to justify their wages somehow. Kicking down doors mob handed offers that.

Alex - on the issue of location, webwomen has said that she is in a business zone. On the issue of the media and how it would be played out, you are preaching to the choir - I know exactly how they play it out - what I don't expect to see is an adult webmaster using some of their lame reactionary scare mongering tactics on an adult board - it sure came across that way.

Wazza - the population of the UK are getting spanked in lots of ways mate ;-)

doublep, sorry, this is the first she has said about being in a buisness zone. The rest of the time she talks about "in her house" and special permits and whatnot. Until her post just now. honestly, I assumed it was the basement of her house. Nothing else to work from.

My comments aren't scare mongering in the slightest. It is just putting into play the reality of what people face. Most of us don't get hassled because we don't run commercially visible businesses, and most of us don't deal directly in providing physical services of (potentially) sexual nature to end clients. I have never had a surfer in my office (except possibly some of my friends, but I don't ask), and they certainly are not getting any physical services for money here.

Sex related activites + visitors + cash = prostitution in most "straight" people's minds. Most straight people also consider (incorrectly, from my understanding) that S&M / BDSM / domination is a sexual act. Therefore, they see prostitution as the end result. Getting someone to show up with cash in hand asking for a session during the raid is a nice classic touch.

Webwoman, I would "get the facts" except that you have been very, very, very soft on them. Let me start at the top:

"my home was raided by the local and state police"
"The town that i live in approved my home based internet adult business along with a studio that i shoot content and video for my site"
"imagine having to park your car in the front of a house thats being raided with 30 police cars a hugh forensic van parked in my driveway"
"When they did not find what they were looking for they decided to take my 4 computers cameras all my business files and both rooms of furniture that we use for our shoots"

I am using your words as presented.

What I am starting to see here is a story that is changing and morphing, and starting to make me think that we truly don't have anything like the whole story here.

Alex

Let me add this into the discussion... information taken from a public record of the registration of the domain(s) in question:

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=5+mont...&iwloc=A&hl=en

Looks to me like a residential street, next to a commercial street. Yup, car dealer in the back yard, but the neighbor to the side has a nice swimming pool in the back yard.

The point for me is that I am not wrong. This is a residential street, one of the two ways into a nice little subdivision. Yes, one side is commercial... but the other side isn't.

I should also point out that the domain for this "business" is less than 6 months old. The business is what? Well, here goes:

"We have two areas that I conduct my sessions in my fully equipped Dungeon or my medical fetish room. Both are private.

I am available for sessions Monday thru Friday 11am to 11pm Sat –Sun Noon to 8pm
Weekend sessions must be booked by Friday.
Remember to book early, this ensures that you get the desired time you want.

Tribute for my session is $300
Half day -$500
Full day -$700
Overnight -$1000
Please leave a message with contact information if you want me to call you back.
Contact me at XXXXXXX email me at XXXXXXXXXXX"

There is much more to this story than meets the eye.

Alex

Tsk, Tsk, Tsk!
 

[quote=Halfdeck]I've met cops who have no respect for the law and they make me sick. QUOTE]

To be fair and I can understand where a lot of people would attack the corrupt or out of control cop... and I agree they are dangerous.. I've known more than a few and when they're your'e friends they're the greatest people in the world to hang out with and know.... and you know what? They'll still go out that night and save a family from the drunken boyfriend with a gun, or recover a couple stolen cars, or return an Alzheimer’s patient to a family.

Anyways, what I'm about to say may piss people off but I think its the truth!

To: Web Woman and everyone like her!

You have my utmost sympathies and I truly have an idea of what you are going through. Here's the rub and take my words as gospel... first of all stupid |dizzy| realize everything you post here is and will be evidence. Whatever you declare here you will have to defend there.
So shut the fuck up and get a lawyer immediately.

Additionally, you have just gone through a scary and difficult time. You should know that it has just begun. It will get much worse from here on out and will last a minimum of two years of fucked financials, major inconvenence, threat to your freedom, and maybe even an upcoming incarceration and payment of a bond that depending on your state maybe many tens of thousans of dollars.

Unless you have 50,000+ to invest you will end up loosing on some aspect of this matter. So don't be more stupid and think a jury is an option. Close this matter as expeditiously as possible take your lump and move on .. or out.

A note to all naive people running porn sites:

As much as you're pleased with yourself and popular at parties... you should remember that to most others you are a smut peddler slightly above lizard on the scale of evolution and they want to stamp you out. You are lucky to even be in this business.... a decade ago someone would be throwing combustible materials in your winows or meeting you in an alley. Prosecution has always been a sister to pornography. If you are not prepared for the prospect don't cry later |violin|
If you had done your due diligence when starting this business and done a simple internet search of news articles on the subject you would have found that this kind of prosecution is fairly common in different locations over the years in amost identical circumstances as yours.

One lesson that your exprience illustrates is if you are on the web don't operate locally. If you operate locally stay the hell off the web.


Another is: have plenty of cash offsite and a backup of your webspace in multiple locations.

Another is: have lunch with a lawyer at least once every three months. If you're not playing tennis with him/her you've got the wrong lawyer. |pokefun| Don't have a lawyer? Next....

The porn biz is a war zone. People and orgnizations are trying to demolish you, ruin you, ridcule you, hurt you, put you in jail. They go to bed thinking about the subject and they wake up thnking about the prospects. They are obsessed. They have power. They have guns, and cars, and radios, and snoops, and snitches, and subpoenas, and more guns.

It is also a business ripe with fraud and criminal enterprise and an easy political target. There's a lot of stuff swirling around this. Many, many, WM's should really reconsider.

Phew... I feel so much better already with that off my chest!

Oh, yeah if the State Police was involved too.. you are really screwed because that means the State Attorney General's Office had to sign off on the effort. Settle it fast and shut up! What kind of moron in a criminal prosecution goes on a public board and bitches. You are STUPID.

I know someone around here that is basically doing the same thing. I called them yesterday to kind of warn them and they told me that they were making about $5k/week from the "donations". I told them to put about half of that away for their legal fund :) The people I know are really doing worse than spanking and bondage but, I felt like I was just talking to myself when I warned them what could happen. To top it off, their donation website is on tripod.

I really need to put in my ball gag, because there is oh so much I would say if I don't. :D

you'd think with $5,000 a week in donations you could afford some decent hosting |jackinthe

When they started, they had nothing so went with tripod. Now that they are doing well, they have links on all the escort sites and they don't get that you can just redirect the traffic.

Interesting note I didn't see anyone else pick up on. The cops said it was illegal to practice Sadomasochism.

So therefore, when I give my fiancee a caning because she asked for it, I am commiting a crime. When I tie her to the bed and blindfold her before fucking, I am commiting a crime.

Fuck free speech. You are talking about the freedom to smack someones ass who WANTS you too.

There is all this discussion about whether or not she is a prostitute in a residential zone and nothing about the fact that she isn't allowed, under law, to practice BDSM.

I know it's hard for someone not it the lifestyle to understand this, but there are a lot of people into the BDSM lifestyle who NEVER HAVE SEX. I had a slave for over six months and never had sex with her because she didn't do sex, only BDSM. My flogging and caning technique improved greatly, but no fuckee suckee.

I have met people who hire Dominants and HAVE NO SEXUAL CONTACT with them. I know a few pro Dommes and they have lots of no sex clients.

So don't point the finger and scream, "WHORE" because someone takes donations. I have given donations at the door to get into fetish parties in the past and never had sex with anyone at the party. Did the phrase, "innocent until proven guilty" go out with civil rights after 9/11?

I am, however, fascinated how far some people will go to justify their arguments. In all my years I have never heard anyone introduce ZONING LAWS as a trump to free speech or free expression.

As for the argument that "I don't want to be exposed to that and I don't want my kids exposed to it", makes me laugh my ass off. Anyone in the lifestyle goes OUT OF THEIR WAY to avoid exposing anyone to their play. And it's exactly because of the ignorance so blatantley expressed earlier.

Besides, if you are reading this post, YOU ARE IN THE PORN BUSINESS.

Webmaster, hooker, camgirl, whatever. Over ninety percent of porn is shot WITH HOOKERS as the performers.

Maybe you are just mad because she might be cutting in on your online sales by going direct to the customer instead of being pimped by you?

Porn Webmaster = Pimp

Accept it.

Ignorance is easy. Learning is hard.

I would be interested in hearing your side of it

your supposed to participate in board discussions or are you to busy to be bothered now that you got your new cushy job


don't be so quick to be lumping us in with hookers and on top of that, hookers that practice their trade in areas that aren't properly zoned for it