okay Bill, when you first posted this thread I thought it was a great idea, good way to get the industry focused, and I would like to see it continue and at least get us to the next stage.

I agree that it would be good to focus, for now, primarily on the things that we can first accomplish.

I believe there will be time to address all the related and supporting issues once we have some momentum. I don't think we want to let this opportunity get mired in the kind of endless debates that only need to happen because we seemingly don't want to agree that we're all in this together.

Perhaps if we put our heads together long enough to create something that benefits all of us, even if not directly focused on our own specific needs, we'll all see that more clearly.

I've stayed away from this discussion in part because our own sites deal with some things that are not understood easily by everyone, and which many people do get quite squicked about. So I don't want to move the focus from where I think it needs to be, for now, onto making sure that my own needs, and the needs of my more narrow community, are met.

For now, I'm more interested in seeing that we simply accomplish something together here, and that we come away knowing that, together, we have much more power than if we work against each other.

Simon


--

If you can't see the bright side, polish the dull side.

I will not pay taxes on internet sales if no one else has to pay taxes on internet sales. I don't care whether it's porn or not. Tax everyone or noone. Do not discriminate against me (us) because I (we) sell porn.

Great link.

No, however, if your business model is significantly different from most of the porn industry, you don't attempt to change the porn industry to match your standards and your practices because you feel somehow superior to the walmarts of porn.

The tail cannot wag the dog.

You didn't come to the table with a manifesto a chip on your shoulder. That means that you are likely able to understand and accept that not everyone wants to do things you way. That is something that is clearly needed to make this work out.

A manifesto that basically says "the porn industry is stupid" isn't going to help us out one iota.

Alex

|crazy| |crazy| |crazy|
That manifesto doesn't say "the porn industry is stupid". Where do you GET that? And fyi: I didn't submit it here as something that would help out --- YOU snagged it off my site and brought it into the discussion, NOT me.

How can you quote my manifesto (which is totally off-topic, by the way -- I do not see the relevence) but not understand it AT ALL? Where do I say anything about changing the entire industry to meet my standards? Where does it say that "the porn industry is stupid"? Where does it say that I'm superior to anyone? When did I say everyone should do everything my way? I didn't say any of those things, and nothing in it has anything to do with you.

If you read that and interpret it as a condemnation of the industry or that it proves I think I could do without the rest of the industry, you. are. the one. with. a chip. on. his shoulder. I am proud to be a pornographer and to be part of this industry. And YOU are the one bringing things into the discussion that are completely off topic.

If you want to continue to obsess on what you IMAGINE I am saying, why don't you call my phone sex line or join my site instead of wasting everyone's time trying to convince them that I said things I didn't and that I think things I don't? What other purpose do your posts have besides to try to engage me and to make it appear I am saying things I am not?

If you keep it up, I'm taking Jim's advice and just going to report your shit-stirring off-topic designed-to-put-people-on-the-defensive posts. Or maybe you should start your own thread called, "Twixie hurt my wittle feelings!"

Trixie, let me just quote your own manifesto for you:

"Unfortunately some WebWhores are catty, judgemental, two-faced, bitchy, biggoted, narrow-minded, petty hypocrites "

You might want to take your own advice. You have been nothing but narrow minded and judgemental towards me. Perhaps you should disassociate yourself from yourself?

Alex

Just some quick input...
Let's please behave like professionals. That is what this thread is really about, isn't it? We want to be treated like professionals and not just low life pornographers who don't care if a child sees our offerings.

Let me clarify: I didn't have that in mind when I wrote about paying taxes. I was thinking more along the lines of: we're legitimate businesses, we'll pay our (income) taxes like everyone else.

But you do raise another point that we need to lobby on: the crazed suggestions of a "sin tax" on internet porn. It's another issue that we have to fight against for exactly the reasons that Candy has said.

I say put a porn tax in place - it legitimizes our industry just like it does for smoking & drinking.

Smoke and drink are taxed when they're imported from other countries. Internet porn cannot be taxed when imported from other countries. Haven't we seen enough jobs go over seas during this administration?

Maybe laws vary from state to state, but we pay a shitload of "sin tax" on smokes & booze that is produced here in the good old US of A.

I'm with Grandma -- none of the research proves that consuming porn leads to sex crimes, poor health, etc. but there is lots of evidence about the detrimental effects of smoking and drinking.

Do you even understand why men (by far the largest consumers of pornography) enjoy porn? If so, it doesn't come across very well. I've never met a man who sat around with his cock in one hand and his mouse in the other whose purpose was the journey toward social enlightenment. Maybe convincing yourself that you can make some sort of difference in the world with your particular brand of porn makes it easier for you to live in a society where most men and women outside of this business consider you nothing more than a hooker on film.

If you have such little respect for TGPs and Linkists, and have no need for their socially uninformed traffic, then you better update your affiliate program with a notice stating that you don't want to be promoted that way.

Someone better show me how the fuck "red porn" is socially redeeming, because most of us rank it down their with scat and fucking corpses.

EDIT - Maybe you'd like to report this post since I obviously don't agree with you on this particular issue. Go ahead, have me censored. |thumb

Can you tell me more about the men you've met sitting around with their cocks in their hands? This is getting me hot . . . do you ever engage in mutual masturbation with these men? Pics please.

I think he makes a pretty good point there and I think you are avoiding it by trying to be witty. |badidea|

Nice answer Trixie. No real good and honest answer, so you turn to an attack?

That is usually the response of someone who is guilty as charged.

Alex

Some friends and I sit together in a large circle and jerk each other off while discussing the abundance socially redeeming pornography we've stumbled upon as of late.

That still doesn't change the fact that putting a Gov't tax on it would make the entire porn business even more legit.

I'm avoiding responding to it because MOST PEOPLE are getting tired of the off-topic B.S.

The red/period stuff has been hashed over a number of times on this board to no avail. If people who weren't already involved in those discussions had an honest desire to understand why I make period porn and what is socially redeeming about it, they could simply go to my site or do a search for those threads.

As for Useless' initial charge, it is clear that he didn't understand my points the first time, so what is the point of trying to make them a second time? But fine, I'll try again: I don't think all or even most porn needs to have redeeming qualities. My point was that if we're presenting arguments to anti-porn people, being able to provide examples of porn that DOES have socially redeeming qualities might help us make more convincing arguments.

It seems like you guys read animosity into things where it doesn't even exist, and then you start a flame war.

Examples: FurryGirl says, "many feminists are against us" and a few people hear, "FurryGirl is a feminist and she hates us! US! And she is not one of US! Begone, foul feminist!"

I could say "the sky is blue" right now and you guys would be like, "but you want to paint it red with your menstrual fluid and the blood of tgp and linklist owners! Arrr! You can't fool me, I *know* you're a she-devil!"

|banghead|

This is why I try not to waste time hanging around here and other boards -- judging from your posts, it's feels like a waste of time and energy to try to dialogue with some of you guys. My time is better spent talking to the people who pay me: those guys with their cocks in one hand and their mice in the others.

All it would do is serve to make the arguments AGAINST porn legit. Porn *is* taxed via sales tax except on the internet -- if they want to change the structure of taxation on the internet for everyone, then fine. I wouldn't have a problem with a regular sales tax. But when people (democrats, no less) propose taxes of 25% on porn as though we are at fault for every sick sex crime that happens, going along with it doesn't legitimize our industry, it makes us sound like we're entering a "guilty" plea bargain.

Say, if you don't mind, when attending one of those circle jerks knock Chop off your shoulder.

Can I come and watch this circle jerk? And bring a camera cos it sounds interesting. :D

Trixie, why waste energy attacking RawAlex when he makes a better ally than an enemy? What does ranting about TGPs accomplish, except annoy webmasters who put their sweat and blood into building traffic to their TGP? We all take pride in what we do.

Feminism is a point of contention in this thread because the issue only applies to some of us. That doesn't mean its unimportant. But to move this forward, we need to focus on what matters to everyone.

Could Greenie or someone post a few poll threads about various issues? (Or could someone tell me how to create a poll on this board, I'm buggered if I know how to do it)

The first one could be regarding labelling:

Poll: What label do you think should be the standard and promoted as such?
1. ICRA label (existing system)
2. A simple meta tag
3. A more complex tag with varying content levels but still one that is just inserted in the html
4. A meta label combined with V-chip system
5. No label

Not sure if that's all the choices, but it's a start and would give us an idea of what people want. Perhaps this poll could be posted on other boards as well, to get a broader picture of people's opinions.

I heard you were a voyeur. I guess that doesn't apply to 20 or so guys jerking off though, eh? :D

Do you honesty think you will be able to convince anti-porn people that ANY porn has "socially redeeming qualities"? Trixie, I know you're an intelligent woman and I'm not about to insinuate something other than that, but do you fully understand who those rabid anti-porn people are? We're talking about people who lean so far to the right that they can't go sailing due to the fear of keeling the boat over. Unless we can convince them that their god of choice wants people to lounge naked and fuck on the internet, they aren't going to care about what we've to say. This is my whole point of contention. There is no way for us to add value to pornography. The only thing we can do is hammer home YOUR right to express yourself as you wish, whether they find it objectionable or not.

Red porn is not my bag, baby. But that doesn't mean that I want those cocksuckers saying that you can't do it.
Never heard of her. :D
That's not true. I hardly ever argue with people who agree with me.

That's a fine idea Grandma |thumb

Perhaps we can get the ol eye back on the prize :)

The infighting does us no good whatsoever. Let's keep thing simple for now...see if we can hammer out some basics.

My personal opinion is fist that no label is not an option, especially for US webmasters because in my most humble opinion if we don't do something ourselves, eventually our government will. Just like they did with steroids in baseball (wtf the US govt. is doing telling an adult what they can and can't do with their body in any fucking manner is way beyond my understanding but that's a different subject). So, in our own interest, something has to be done.

My preference is complex but relevant tags. The reason being that the more relevant the tag is, the more likely major search engines will actually pick it up and use it for SERP. If the major search engines DO pick it up, that will give non-US webmasters an incentive to use the tag as well. Which in the end, helps further the goal of making it possible for all adult material to be kept out of the hands of minors without their parental consent.

But, I'll take almost ANYTHING because the fact is, whatever is put in place will not get much use. The V-Chip in televisions are being used by less than 10% of the homes in the US...according to the last study I remember seeing. Tom, from the FSC, has stated that they are working on a white paper on the subject and I personally am all for tabling the discussion until the FSC publishs it's white paper. At which time, we can tell them how stupid their idea's are.

Possibilities for individual action:

1. Label existing sites with ICRA - and put info about that labelling on your pages so people know you're making an effort

2. Create your own page detailing how to block porn using a browser, giving info about labels and recommending Nanny software.

3. Create your own "Official Statement" page saying you believe in freedom of speech and are making an effort to keep children away from your sites.

4. Post about labelling/ COPA / political issues in your blog

5. Contribute your technical skills to help FSC set up a decent website

6. Contribute money to help create an advertising campaign about filtering - "A public service brought to you by the adult industry"

7. Write a letter to:
a. The newspaper
b. Your local politician
(this one is scary because it involves publicly sticking your neck out)

8. Think about what individual skills you have and volunteer to offer them, maybe one hour a week, to the FSC, or ACLU, or your lobby group of choice.

9. Think about ways to get our message out - to the politicians and the general public. It doesn't matter how good we are if no-one knows about it.

Emmanuelle will be pm'ing you shortly about a new niche site I'm sure ;)

Trixie, did you honestly read what you posted? Did you think it all the way through?

I like this the best:
Would it be different if we were girls? If we had the other set of reproductive organs? Is it, in your mind, a waste of time to try to talk about the production of porn and being a "porn girl" to any guy? Or do you just have that restriction for TGP owners?

It just doesn't get any better than this.

Alex

Good idea grandma,

I just emailed a letter to Tom offering my scripting skills, for whatever that's worth, to the FSC. In his response, he said "what will really be helpful is feedback from people in the industry regarding policies and projects that we are developing." Now, I'm off to do a little homework on what policies/projects he's referring to :)

I believe we should continue fighting amongst ourselves whilst our detractors get more organized every day amidst their warm fuzzy glow of piety :)

It's often difficult to corral a herd of independent thinkers even when they are on the same side of the fence :)

I'm doing my best not to be negative in this thread, but this one had me frowning. I'd love to give feedback, but on what? How does one find out about these policies and projects? Are they on the website? Are they only available to members via email?

Can you report back on your homework for us?

UW, I would say that porn has a ton of socially redeeming and even enlightening properties, and that we need to be talking about those redeeming properties.

I don't think we are trying to influence the opinion of the religiously anti-sex and the far right. It's the large middle group, who like a little occasional porn and are willing to believe it's healthy, relaxing, and invigorating, that we want to be talking to and convincing that censoring and outlawing porn is anti-constitutional and unhealthy.

Hell, I'd say for most men jerking off to images of strange pussy is the closest thing to transcendence that they are allowed to have, it reduces stress and anger, and it makes the world a better place.

I think we should be saying, "porn is good for people".

I'm absolutely baffled by the responses here. How can anyone argue that putting the porn least likely to offend in the spotlight wouldn't be the best course of action?

Of course all types of porn should be defended, but if you have the option of using porn created by college-educated, non drug addicted, non sexually abused women who have other career opportunities & still choose to create their own brand of personally enjoyable porn, who control all aspects of its creation & who profit directly from it, why the hell wouldn't you? It just seems like a no brainer to me.

I don't think Trixie or Furrygirl are saying that their brand of indie porn is superior or that the standard porn flicks don't have merit. I know I personally enjoy watching some rather raunchy stuff that a lot of women would consider degrading. But just because I enjoy it doesn't mean I should use it in an argument to defend porn!

Done :)
http://www.greenguysboard.com/board/...ad.php?t=28776

The thing that I wonder about this thread is the following...are we trying to get porn socially accepted or are we trying to show how the government is infringing upon basic freedoms.

I'm not a slick marketing type guy, but if I was trying to get people to support my cause I would be wrapping it in the most palatable pill imaginable.

If someone came up to me and said write an argument on this topic for the average person I would hammer home almost nothing about porn itself, but instead discuss freedoms of speech, expression, etc. Most Americans wouldn't openly admit they support porn or even accept porn, but tell them the government is infringing on their freedoms and not only will they back it, they'll be foaming at the mouth mad to back it.

American's on the whole are brainwashed little patriots deep down, hammer home that your freedoms are being taken away, you'll get action. If you try to make them socially accept porn it'll be doomed.

Kcat, as Mr Blue said, I don't think it is about "most socially acceptable porn", because more than 50% of americans have watched or actively watch porn, but they would never admit it.

Start talking about freedom of speech, and the ACLU and all those other groups will form up behind you, supporting you to the very end.

I think this is more about not putting the WRONG foot forward. You do not want to give the enemies of porn more ammo to work from. While I support the freedom of speech for red sites, example, I also think that they would be fodder for the media and for the members of Congress, so I don't think that they are a good issue to fight on. Nor do I think that gagging sites, or bondage sites, or bukkakke sites would be good examples to use (and thus the people who operate them are not the best representitives to talk about porn, because we want the world to get the message, not to get lost in the person presenting it).

The sad fact is the best way in my mind to portray porn is with a simple guy meets girl, guy fucks girl site. Yes, it is walmart porn, but walmart porn is what the public is generally buying, and what they find socially acceptable. With social exceptance we are more likely to get the message out there, rather than starting a debate about the messanger.

Alex