Bill, as I mentioned at the zoo, congress had 160 new items on it's list on the 15th alone. The chance that this bill even makes it to a reading is fairly thin. It is written and at best introduced in order to show that they are "doin sumptin" about an issue that chruch going bible thumpers find close to their heart.

I would suspect that they are very much aware that the bill has absolutely no chance of getting passed (and reconciles with the house), and if so, they are also aware that it would likely get tied up in first amendment arguments for the next decade or so, much in the same way that Clinton era COPA laws are still circling around the bottom of the toilet bowl, but occassionally looking like they might resurface just long enough to remind us how stupid and misguided they really were.

Remember, Ashcroft actually had the balls (and brains) to push COPA back to the surpreme court to try to get another kick at the can, not to actually get it put into law, but to give the republicans another feather in their caps on the child protecting field.

It is, once again, a ploy, an attempt to both confuse the electorate and abuse the media with announcements of "potential" laws. Sadly, the media never makes it clear that these are only "stabs in the dark" with little or no potential of becoming law, but are instead reported as a sort of valium for the populace, a sedative for the collective soul.

Alex

Oh, I completely agree Alex, I don't really expect this particular bill to pass.

But, it's part of an ongoing assault which I think you would agree has very dangerous implications.

This is "Culture War" in action, and it's not likely to go away any time soon.

We have to be thinking long term. You've said you were considering retiring soon, which might make this less of a problem for you, but I'd like to be running my business for some time yet.

Not to mention, that this is just a part of the ongoing demolition of the U.S. constitution. That might seem like a done deal up in Canada, but down here I'd like to think we have some chance left to keep the constitution alive.

It sucks being an idealist.

Bill, I have retired from some of the parts of the business I was doing before. Newer rules have made some things less than productive. My Domain list has shrunk by 75% in 3 years. I am not retired, but I am certainly headed a different direction.

Underlying all the news releases, court challenges, laws, and "enforcement actions" going on is that there is apparently a shift in the shrillness of the extreme left on these issues, and they are winning the battle in many cases.

It isn't just porn on the net - it is everything from Janet's nipple to Roe v. Wade. They are pushing on many sides, and with the assistance of a numbnuts president and a now fairly conservative supreme court, I think they are feeling their oats and are going to push like mad in the next two years. They know all too well that they are looking at a likely shift in the house and senate next time around, and the President only has two years left... so they are bailing as fast as they can. It's working.

The FCC has leveled very large fines against CBS and others recently ( http://msnbc.msn.com/id/11847422/ ) and is moving to try to get more family oriented programming to be included in a la carte cable/sat programming choices. They have also talked about attempting to find ways to regulate cable and sat channels to be closer to the over the air rules.

It is a major, major shift, it has been coming for years, and it is actually good overall for the porn business (push us undergroun a bit, and we can charge more for the same thing, guilt tax, I guess). However, it will be painful for some people, as it will change business models and leave the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer.

Alex

Alex, you said 'extreme left', is that what you meant?

I saw that bill as an attempt by the rural states to bully the urban states.

The us senate and electoral college overrepresents the rural states, giving them far more power to control lawmaking than their populations would ordinarily warrant.

This is a tactical advantage that the neocon movement has ruthlessly exploited, literally taking over the republican party, and fucking the traditional conservative republicans (like my father) up the ass by spending more money than ever before.

It's an attempt to bankrupt the federal government. They have explicitly stated that this is their intent - it's just that the average american can't read anymnore, so they don't know this stuff, they think this is all being done to protect them from the big bad terrorists.

---

But, to get back to the original topic, this latest bill is just a shot across the bows. Worse is coming.

Bill, the extremes are both end are getting more and more shrill, and they are clambering all over each other to take shots at the usual moral whipping boys (drugs, porn, booze, smokes, and sex in general). This attack happens to come from the democrats, but I am sure there are members of the republican party just wishing they had fired the shot first.

it won't pass, it isn't even going to get a real reading in the congress... but it is let another pointless sabre rattle in an off year election cycle.

Alex

Just out of curiosity. Do you believe that a warning page would ever stop a minor from cicking YES I'm OVER 18? I mean, they are stealing thier parents credit cards, what makes people think a warning page will stop them?

Don't get me wrong, I WANT minors to stay the hell out of viewing adult content. I just believe the FCC and many others are forgetting one thing...PARENTS...they should have a role in monitoring thier children.

The government can create a xxx or whatever. They can make us in the adult industry jump through hoops. They can take every single precaution available and it is STILL going to happen because parents are NOT doing their jobs.

I have kids and I have a 10 year old that loves spending time on the net. She has her own login to the computer. She has bookmarks of where she is allowed to go on the net.

She has a little book that she can write down the names of sites she has heard about from friends or TV. We check the sites out, if it is something we approve of, it is added to her list of approved sites and she is allowed to go there.

She is never allowed on the computer unless someone is in the room with her and actually glancing at her screen frequently to make sure everything is ok. She is not allowed a MySpace account, she is not allowed to have her own email address, nor is she allowed to have instant messaging or go to chat rooms. My older children went through the same rules and regulations when they were young. We taught them safe surfing, we took part in their online activities and we discussed the dangers of the internet. I see no difference between this and teaching your child how to drive safely or how to protect themselves when out with friends etc. It is part of the being a parent.

Everybody should get behind .KID TLD which IMHO is the only way to address and encompass the ENTIRE range of kid safe content and surfing zones.

Maybe we should just start talking about who's going to RUN in the next elections at FSC. They'll be here next thing you know. Continue to wait around here and see if anybody from FSC follows up on the things we've asked for and communication we've requested in these various threads. If not, we'll hammer them in the elections. Get a roster together now and we can use the boards to develop electable momentum.

Don't forget.... you have to be a MEMBER to vote!

DJilla: At the end of the day, the FSC is a global umbrella organization that by it's very nature cannot and will not represent the needs of the online world unless those needs match those of the video industry. We are still the bastard children, and we don't have the power with them to make it work out.

If I understand correctly, the elections within FSC are only for a limited number of positions, and the rest are by appointment or by "representitives from various parts of the industry". Even if the online people outnumber the video members 3 to 1, there would be no way to vote a more online friendly board.

We truly need an "online porn" organization that could work with FSC on things, but that would come to the forefront on issues directly related to the online world.

.kids is an idea I have pushed in the past, I think it is a great idea, but it also may put an unrealistic burden on content neutral sites (such as dictionary.com or whatever) to have a duplicate site because kids often access their site for information. I think that in the end both .XXX and .KIDS are misleading, because they fail to address the simple point:

The internet (like all of the world) is an adult place, and children are only safe when protected by their parents or guardians. It is a fact of the real world, and a fact of the net as well. Parents must take their responsilbities for how their children behave.

Alex

Does such an organization exist? If so let's support it. If not, then let's form one and make it work.

I think it is past time to shut up with a bunch of opinions and take some actions. How many threads have been started on this and how many retained their focus on the subject? Most often it ends up with bashing my government and my President. Yes since I am an American, Bush is my President for a few more years.

Speaking of opinions, Tommy came to the board with an ideal and some of the folks here with more opinions than assholes hijacked his thread and Tommy retrieved. I see that as a great lost to this cause - a respected member of the online community with a good ideal and because some folks had extra time on their hand he probably said 'bull shit let the sky fall."

Good point |thumb

It's called a "good faith effort" & is strongly backed by the ASACP. Short of driving from house to house & patrolling what kids surf on my own, it's the best thing I can do for my business model.

Chop, my feeling is that there is no such "just online" organization out there at this point. We have spent near 10 years as a group of rugged individualists that have little or no respect for the rules, and as a result, trying to get people together was like herding cats in a zero gravity catnip field. It was rare to find two people who could agree on anything.

Now the online industry has matured some, the more cowboy mentality people have either moved on, gone broke, or are currently facing the courts - and now many of us can agree on many subjects.

FSC is a good organization that in a sense represents all of the porn industry's interests. However, because the online people are not very organized, the video world's view of the various issues is usually what comes out on top.

I don't have an answer, but I sure do have some questions :)

Alex

Greenguy, If everyone in the industry performed similar acts, what is to stop them from requiring more and more and more after that? Then they might say your warning page needs to be in multiple languages like spanish as well, if concessions are made they will never stop making more demands of the industry as a whole until we are left making 5 baziliion concessions because they keep demanding more and more, Thus wasting all our time to please the conservatives and less and less time making the sales and business connections so vital to the industries continued success.

I don't mean to lecture you on the topic, because I am extremely new to the biz and I know you have been in it for 10+ years. So I guess I should ask you, in your experience in the biz, how many concessions have you seen from the adult industry to no avail? Is it true they will never be happy with what we do to help them protect their children?

I can speak as a person who a few years ago was a fundamental baptist, the most vicious form of conservatives you could possibly imagine, women are frowned upon for wearing pants|shocking| In the end, it is groups similar to these that must be appeased, and I know they will never be happy with the adult biz, they will always look for an excuse to make more demands until we are desitute. Now it is the ever so propular "protect the children" ploy, and they will milk it for all it's worth, as will the sonsofbitches politicians who |bow| to their demands for political power.

Damn good reply, Alex.

I was not around for the "wild west" days. I hope I am wrong but that "rugged individualists" attitude is going to be the downfall of the adult webmasters. Oh, we will blame it on the government but the real reason will be because we did not organize. And how many times have I heard that 'I don't want so and so to know what I do." This keeps many folks from wanting to be a part of an organization especially in a leadership role.

Bottom line is I don't think you will see a functioning Webmasters' Association. However, should it happen I will carry my financial share of the load. Get it organized and I will call Trent Lott and Thad Crochran and remind them of some of the good ole days went we whored around.

Listening to the news, I am not sure if much has changed since the days that my dad was a lobbist. Back then I learned that a suitcase of cash, a few whores and a camera to refresh memories when necessary would bring power plants to Mississippi.

As you, I think I know the plan of action to take and will be happy to outline it. Will my plan be the one acted on? No and yours will not be either. First we have to agree we are heading for the same goal and be prepared to accept an overall plan. Right now everyone is scattering bird shots. The goal is not defined and the leaders we need are still on the side line.

LOL, I am not even sure that this rant is in the right thread.

|buddy| what is so hard to understand about warning pages? It is not what you are dictated to do. It is not even about right or wrong. Well maybe it is the right thing to do but the by-product is when your ass is on the carpet, you can say "I did everything in my power to let your child know that I did not want him in my site. Now go take some parenting classes"

Send Useless Warrior and me to lobby for you. We do tend to speak our minds. Once we call 535 politicians cocksuckers, you will all be out of business. Your religion and your political party has little to do with this. For example, my brother is an ordain baptist minister and was once the head of the Republican Party in my county. Guess what, that sucker likes sex as much as his little brother and yes he knows what I do.

"A fundamental baptist, the most vicious form of conservatives you could possibly imagine" and "sonsofbitches politicians?" This is like trash talking before a ball game and then getting your ass handed to you after the game. Do they know who says what just because you are hiding out under an alias. Hell yeah, if they don't they can hire someone like Linkster to track you down.

Tell you what. You call Greenguy a low life link list owner and them ask him to list your stuff. I contact him and ask to be listed and ask in return what I can do for him. I think I would have an edge just because I never trash talked him.

Yes, it is time for me to STFU and get productive. The baby needs shoes and you are not going to hire me as your lobbist. Therefore, I need to go find something to submit to GG.

Concessions? I honestly can't think of anything that has been put into place where legit online webmasters had to change their sites, including the new 2257, which is not yet a law.

The "good faith effort" has been a part of my business plan for as long as I can remember. I'm just a Link List & Free Site guy & both of those have warning pages. This way of making sites is not new to me & it's not like we're being told that we have to have warning pages, it's being suggested by a lot of people in the industry that it's a good idea to have them.

Chop, you have to say it right: "Excuse me sir, you are a cocksucker sir, thank you sir". The rest is fluff :)

Alex

Yes, but there are a million things which do far more damage to children than the evil and sinister world of online porn. It's similar to the drug war on cannabis, not one fatality has EVER been attributed to it, yet they put people in prison for long terms for it, some of whom won't get out of prison until cars hover like the jetsons.

Wht I was saying is that it will never be enough. Even if the industry mandates warning pages and such, what will be next? and so on.


If you were actually sent to lobby what would be your first plan of action? Seriously.

I stand corrected, I guess I was wrong.

Greenguy, are you confident that if we did mandate the warning pages that it would stop them from asking for more? If so, then I think it's a great idea, and Hopefully you're right.

Straight up answer. I don't need money bad enough to stoop that low. I spend most of my life and three of my five years of college being prepped to be one of those 'sonsofbitches politicians' to become heir to a good ole boy position.

If the question is what would I do to fight the battle?

Determine which animal you need -donkey or elephant. Since the Republicans are in power, I would locate the lobbying firm that is headed by the most conservative Souther Baptist in Washington. It would probably be the old Haley Barber firm and since I know he still owns it, I would get Trent Lott to speak to him first. From there you just have to do what you are told. They will tell you how much it cost to trap a bill in committee or how to keep a suit off the court docket.

Could I afford to do the above. No and I have not seen the FSC's financials but I doubt they can afford it either.

BTW, has anyone ever researched the admin expenses of FSC?

Studying the FSC is one of the things I put on the top of my list of things to do, in this conversation I had going on about that a month ago.

It's why I said we needed a point man in the first place, to go to meetings and report back to us what the inner workings and discussions about finances were. Direct information rather than the massaged information usually given to members and outsiders.

I've been studying the question a bit, it looks like most organizations like this have about a 30% overhead. It can probably be done for less, but not all that much less.

Not that Greenguy needs to justify his positions on warning pages, but here is some petty good reading for those that do not get xbiz. http://xbiz.com/news_piece.php?id=13995

I don't think you get what I'm saying. I've used warning pages for as long as I can remember. They make sense to me. I think I started using them in 97, but the oldest pages I can find in the waybackmachine is January 98:
http://web.archive.org/web/199801280...nk-o-rama.com/
(ugh - what was I thinking - LOL)

Maybe try to think of it this way - if a local adult store had ads in the windows depicting hardcore sex & the door was open & there were no signs posted that it was an adults only store, would that fly?

As usual I generally agree with your post. But from my perspective, I usually take the slow and plodding path towards success. Influence, control, acheievement is usualy made in increments and baby steps.
I've always found that it is easier to take over and turn around an existing entity, business, social group, etc. rather than reinvent a brand new one. FSC has done alot of the advance work and I think we could become a major factor within it over time. First step is to truly have someone on the inside. Even if he/she/they were initially ignored (which I really wonder about, maybe not) there is a path that can build with pressure. Again, I point out IMHO video stores/sales are dead, they just don't know it. Electronic delivery is inevitable and that's our domain (pun intended). We also could potentially muster a PR/news delivery system that would dwarf their current mainstream efforts. Starting a new org would be cool and why not? But again IMHO it would be way behind the curve and probably take much longer to come up to speed than we have to address the present issues. Best yet, do both|thumb.

Re: .kid, Having given this a lot of thought my strategy is first, this is something that we and the FSC can already agree on and a unifier. Second, regardless of the realities of parental responsibility, we HAVE to give parents something to work with. Third, it takes the pressure off us and puts it on filters, search, etc! Fourth, I think a .kid domain would turn out to be something truly wonderful. Finally, I don't give a whit about content neutral sites who might have to create duplicate sites. Too bad, |verysad comes with the teritory of the changing electronic frontier.

That still leaves the problem of warning pages. Naw, I can't imagine they stop anyone in their tracks with guilt or fear. But I use em and with the combo of .kid it puts the onus on "supervision" and not us.

Bottom line, I'll support everything those who are far more experienced than I say is a good idea.

Is my government going to put us out of business?
 

Did not want to start another thead but thought this was related to this one.

I was working on my2257records today and a light went on. Let's say that congress does pass some of the things they are considering, will it put the US adult webmasters out of business and open it wide for other webmasters in other countries.

For example, if congress requires age verification before hardcore images can be viewed the likely solution will be to have a one time charge paid with a credit card. Even, if the charge is $5 will surfers pay it to view US sites if they view UK sites free without age verification?

Chop, that is one of the difficulties in all of this. The US senators do not realize that when it comes to the internet, they are but the tail attempting to wag the dog. They can apply certain means to force the issue, but at the end of the day, free porn will move offshore, membership porn will remain in the US, and nothing will have changed except who is cashing the checks.

They are still thinking in terms of magazines sold in stores. They don't realize that it is as easy (and really transparent) for an end user to get free porn from where ever it comes from. It doesn't become a longer wlak to the store or perhaps having to drive over state lines, but rather a click of the mouse that gets the same result, albeit from a different source.

One of the reasons they are split on the .XXX thing for sure is I think many lawmakers are worried about creating any legitimacy for porn at all. It is the same reason none of them are running out to tax porn. Anything like that would mean they would have to accept porn as real and legal. That isn't in the cards.

I think the next couple of years are going to be filled mostly with unenforcable laws, court challenges, constitutional challenges, and election year grand standing.

Remember too, that the numbers typically don't lie. Even conservatives know that a large majority of americans have viewed one or more porn movies, and a good percentage surf, view, or rent adult material. While many people are too shy to admit it, taking their candy away from them would piss them off come voting time. Conservatives know this, and as a result, rather than attacking porn head on, they are trying the end run "zoning law" style attempts to put the hurt on the industry. It is funny as hell to watch them go at it.

Alex

Also remember that some First Amendment lawyers are trying to patent their own age verification system that does not require any credit card processing. It's based on the honor system which obviously is silly but if they can get it passed then they'll make a killing since they'll have the patent.

Damn lawyers! Wonder what would happen if a broken down old cpa and a few webmasters did one for free?

That's a concept Chop, I suggested something like that when that lawyer first published on his 'patent pending' system.

At the time I think I was thinking about using a form button with a radio check spot (or whatever it is that those form do-hickeys are called) as the way to get into a free site, so the person has to check a button saying they read the rules and agreed to them before they could enter.

the problem with that is that linklists wouldn't currently accept that type of entry.

However, planning it out so that we were ready to use it the day after the verification crackdown happened might be smart.

Bill, I missed the patent pending deal. Can you point me to it?

I'll have to hunt it down Chop, and I'm not even sure where to start - but my memory of it was that this one fairly well known adult lawyer type said he had invented a javascript tool that worked as a legally viable age verification, and that he had submitted it for a patent, thus I called it "patent pending".

The tool required that a visitor enter his birthdate into a field before entry was allowed. The logic was that the birthdate was part of the current legal method of establishing identity (name and date of birth), and therefore was an acceptable way to anonymously collect a unique agreement to be bound by the rules for entry.

If he was sucessful at getting a patent, that should mean no-one can use an age verification scheme that uses a bithdate identifier without paying him a fee.

So, I was playing with ideas that didn't rely on that patent's concept.

I'll look thru my bookmarks and see if I have it somewhere.

Okay, I haven't found the original article in which he claimed to have filed a patent application (according to my memory of the article), but this is the tool thingy.

It was Larry Walters, and here's the link to his demo website, which looks exactly the same as the first time i saw it:

http://www.birthdateverifier.com/details.html

Javascript? There is a nice 1997 idea.

I wonder if Budweiser and other beer companies know about this product.

Alex

http://budweiser.com/

Interesting.

Alex

I'll be damned the dude really does have a patent (# 6,959,861) for having someone enter their birthdate, calculating against todays date, entering a name (digitally signing) and storing that information along with the IP address.

Budweiser must be getting around the patent issue since you don't digitally sign for their age verification.

And this is somehow better than a warning page?

I guess the legal basis would be that anyone entering that isn't over 18/21 would have falsified their DOB to gain access. Basically a higher level of CYA than a simple warning page. This also requires that scripting is in place to make sure anyone entering the site via another page is redirected to the entry page.

Higher CYA yes, but at quite a price. It's search engine suicide, since spiders will only be able to see the entry page.

Walrus, probably the reverse - bud has had that on their site for as long as I can remember (more than 5 years I am sure). Me thinks that not everything that has a patent pending is in fact, well, original.

Alex

Credit card or driver license seems to be the ticket for age verification with driver license being the best. Found this site while researching driver license verification.

I guess they don't test for the Mac platform.

I see this at the top of their index page in Safari and in Firefox:
=0)document.write(unescape('%3C')+'\!-'+'-') //-->


The real problem is shown in the screenshot below, which shows Budeweiser's entry page with no way to enter for Mac users surfing with Safari, the standard browser on the Mac platform. Not just nowhere to enter or choose a birthdate, but absolutely not one clickable thing on the entire page.

I see this all the time with sites that aren't careful about making sure their Javascript works in all browsers on all platforms, and that don't 'sniff' for browsers they don't support so they can supply an alternate way to enter.

If it's important, I may keep switching browsers until I find one I can use to enter (like Firefox in this case). But sometime it's just "off to the next site" rather that trying to use a site that many have more problems for me just waiting inside.

Mac users are a small segment of total Internet users, that's true. But it's just sloppy coding to completely lock your front door so someone can't get in at all.


Simon

P.S. Yeah, I'm letting them know.

Who cares about you insignificant Apple surfers anyway? :D

Anyone who doesn't want their Apple/Mac surfers, please feel free to make a big old link saying "Free XXX Porn for Mac Users" and send them to any of my sites. :D

There aren't that many of us, true, but I don't think I know one without a credit card, or a healthy pre-disposition to spend more money than they probably should on things they think are cool.

The trick is just to make them think your porn is cool. :)

But you know that already. |thumb