mmm i have tried those things all when i made free sites years ago, i believe i still have them, just a warning page with link on it right to the galleries (so no main page) then its only one click for the surfers, index pages with the icra, btw there are enough webmasters who build their sites that way. I dont see it as a new rule or a new thing, its up to the reviewer or linksite owner if he will accept it or not, even its not in the rules of the LLs i review i still will accept those sites (already do for years, fi they are not to bad...some are realy bad) but i still go for the old rules, everyone can deside if they wanna change the rules, but i also like the way how some webmasters (free site submitters) think and find a totally different way to make a free site.

well, I assumed that template was just an example, now everyone's talking about having that blogroll style strip of recips on every index page? I knew I should have stayed out of this lol |loony|

I still would want to design my freesites the way I want them, 4 page, 3 page, where the recips go & how many I use, where my ads go etc. I guess it would be better SE wise not to do mirrors, but you're pretty limited as to where you can put 40+ links on a page, the side strip seems to be the only way to do that and still have it look decent. Wouldn't that actually make every freesite look even more the same?

I just thought it'd be fun to shake up the freesite structure a bit, so there's a little variety available to the surfer and the builder I guess.

It's interesting to hear other people's opinions and thoughts, though.

damn i should have waited with my posting, you tell better, I agree with ponygirl:D

This is very interesting. I am still very new to the freesite game. I do like the idea of 40 recips on the index page. My hosted freesites for my program Lefty's Bucks are on the index page. I should have submitted them to Penis Bot and some others that required the index.html instead.

yes i am gonna try again and who the fuck cares what he/she thinks about me, any page of a free site with a 40 link backs or more like a blog...will never get listed at any linksite, oke at kit"s and maybe 2 or 3 more, now nobody have to keep at any rules made on the net if you talking about free sites and the linksites you are submitting to...well in a certain way then, every linksite may make his own rules and every free site submitter can deside him/herself to submit to what linksite, what i do know is...the old way is there for years (no matter who invented the rules) its to protect you from cheaters and to get bookmarkers at your site....i think those old rules will never changed...they are there for an reason, so well if someone like to have a new rule and list sites with more then 40+ linkbacks, i dont mind...i know why the old rules are there and found out myself, same reason why not every submitted blog is listed either, thats a good example the blogs,( it was metioned at the OTB this eve also, when a blog submitted at the sites i review for, 8 out of 10 submitted blogs i have to go thru 50+linkbacks to find the linkback to the linksite, easy way it get rejected, btw most submitted blogs are all the same.
So i have no trouble with new rules, but the ones who are going to follow those new 1.5 rules, have to keep in mind, they wont get listed at many linksites. But heay you can always try:)

My linklist is not really active but I know I would never list sites like this. I was one of those that did not allow hardcore on the warning and would not list sites with out warnings.

Another thing that might be worth thinking about is if you use 40 recips with their matching categories, that's 80 out-going links on one page. Is that good?

Look at blogs. Hell, look at the amount of outgoing links on link lists, TGPs, any site - hundreds of outgoing links per page. Let's not forget that when you link out to 40+ link lists from your Pr0 warning pages, 40+ indexed and ranked link list category pages are LINKING BACK TO IT. It serves both sides, the submitter and the list owner.

Free site builders should be giving this concept some serious thought. Being allowed to place 40+ recips on a single page would make the average submitter's life so much more simple.

If someone doesn't think that a free site index could or should be a solid SEO page, then why would they care about how many recips you place on it? I really wish more people around here would think about this for awhile and give it some real thought. Think about how SEs might react to one of your free sites if 40+ link lists were linking to it. Yes, 40+ PR pages linking TO your free site, instead of 10-15 linking to a mirror that isn't going to get indexed because it's dupe content. That does you no favors and certainly doesn't do shit for the link lists which are leaking juice to it.

I've been discussing this with other people who agree, at least partially, with this new model. So far, we like the idea of more recips, fewer mirrors. But I think very few people are willing to lose the main page. I personally think a warning page on a free site is nonsense unless it's at the domain's root, but I've always felt that way. If anyone else has some input on furthering this discussion, other than telling me to fuck myself, please post your ideas and questions, or PM me if you wish. We'll probably end up creating a list of link lists which are willing to accept this partially modified model. Outside of a few notable exceptions, I'm betting that most link lists will eventually accept them. If I'm wrong, I'll close submits on my newer, better link list and only list HFS. I swear to the god of your choice.|thumb

Seems it would be easier to build one freesite with 40-50+ recip links then build several mirrors, especially if it would be one-link recip to LL domain root.
Well, one standart text recip table, no need to make all these mirrors, it may be the reason for fs builders to submit to a bunch of smaller LLs, they never submitted before.
I dont know, if major LLs would appreciate 40+ recip tables, but for smaller LLs it may be a chance to draw more quality freesite builders. No?

It could look ok if you didn't have to link to category pages aswell.
Some examples: 1, 2, 3

As a LL owner I'd love to be in a recip table with 39 other LL's. It would be good for me provided that none of the other recips were of the "Free Porn Here" variety, meaning they couldn't be considered blind links by anyone.
If the only change that comes out of this discussion is that, I'll be a happy dude.
As an occasional fs builder, I don't think about SEO at all when I build, but if I could put 40 recips on a site I'd submit it to 20 more sites than I submit to now.
About the warning page, I'd accept fs's without one, I accept galleries, so why not? As a fs builder I'd like to experiment with fs's without a warning page, but an extra gallery.

I'm open to change that makes sense, not all of kit's ideas makes sense to me, especially re the placement of the recip table, but some of his ideas are worth messing around with.

There are huge differences in site structure and linking when comparing free sites to blogs, tgp or link lists. You really need to think about that subject a little more to see the light. Blogs, tgp and link lists are in constant change. Adding pages, adding links, etc. A free site does not. Therefore, it is not treated the same in the search engines eyes.

I have built a few free sites that were text rich and seo'd to the max. I did get good listings in the serps (a few #1) and noticed the link juice dropped as did the listings as they came off the 'new' listings in the link lists.

Did I forget anything?

I'm confused... What's all the fuss about? Are we supposed to call GG daddy now? Is that it?
Ya know, everybody's talking about how this would affect LLs.
WHAT LINKLISTS? THEY'RE ALL GONNA FUCKIN' DIE! Except the top 40 or so. You'd think some people would think twice... Is this really it? Is enough traffic leaking into too many smaller LLs that it's bothering some people out there? Or is it the fact that with mirror pages some folks can't be sure they're gonna be the ones ending up on the page google actually indexes. Or maybe the fact that the links are further down the page, instead of being the FIRST THING the bots see?

So basically what people wanna do is remove a sales page, right? The first one? The one where there's no content to catch the surfer's eye? The one that they actually HAVE to READ the text links on? Wadda ya know! Some of you might just be dirty lil pervs that can't hold their horses 1 click longer to get the pictures afterall. Am I the only one in this for the money? Not to mention it's the warning page the one people want removed - the page on which, not long ago, you weren't even allowed to show a half of dick in the corner of a small banner!!


I'm all for change, but change for a reason, not for the sake of changing. It basically boils down to this: you'd be removing 1 sales page for no (as far as *I* can see) good reason, because someone has to bring up a compelling motive YET!

This will either blow over in a week, either we're gonna have a split, in which case we're gonna see just which way is better! Either way, this smells like trouble for the submitter!

Kit? Comment?

Good point, and this could be of benefit to some of the newer, smaller list if their recip were placed with the big boys.

I have been rejected for having more than 16 recips at a couple of places, however this is rare and probably not a big consideration.

But what if you wanted to submit to more than 40 list...what if it were 100? I guess you're back to making mirrors...either that or have 100 recips per page. I usually submit to 64 to 68 list, so if 40 were the limit, I'd have to drop some or do a mirror, which is something this 1.5 thing is supposed to eliminate..|loony|

Don't concern yourself with kit's ideas. Kit hasn't ever returned to the thread to help us understand his points. If changes do happen, I can see only two true changes:
1. We swap out the table of 15 recips for a list of recips of whatever length.
2. Loosened restrictions on the number of ad blocks. The layout of advertisements should be determined by the design of the site, instead of the current manner in which the design is based on a restricted number of ads.
That's a what couple of us were thinking as well. Those of us who don't want to build mirrors would finally have good reason to submit to many more link lists. There are people who submit to 200+ link lists, and those folks will still have to mirror, but the vast majority of submitters don't go to that extreme.
Your samples are much nicer than the one I was working on. ;) Basically all anyone would be doing with the structure of this happy medium free site is building the same old warning page they have been, but adding a recip column around 150-200px wide to one side or the other, and dropping their current recip table. Can you imagine how nice life would be for those who include their recips via SSI? If they submit to only 50 link lists, they could make global changes by editing only one file.

A point. :D

Listen, none of us plan on forcing anyone to change the way in which they build their sites. You aren't going to wake up tomorrow and see that Such and Such Link List now only accepts free sites with 50 other recip links on them. I believe that there is a bunch of submitters who will gladly jump on this slightly altered format and then others will realize how stupid it is to mirror when they can build just the single site and submit that everywhere rather than screwing around with mirrors.

Maybe this enlarged recip grouping will help reduce the sting the next time submitters are told that they must include more content to be listed. That's on the horizon. Of course, not from me. I still accept free sites built with 20 screen caps. |thumb

I'm sorry I missed this earlier. (I've appointed myself the official spokesman for the campaign of modifying kit's modifications.)

1. I assume that those of you who submit to more than whatever the mysterious cut-off limit will be, will need to continue mirroring their sites. Fortunately, you'll have to create fewer mirrors.
2. Link list owners won't know who is mirroring anymore than they do now. But there is the presumption that many submitters would no longer need to mirror simply because they don't submit to that many lists.

I also realize that there are many, many submitters who have spent an enormous amount of time gathering and building recip tables and they aren't going to be very happy about tossing away all of that hard work. Therefore, any transition to a changed format should happen slowly, like evolution, rather than an overnight swap out.

LATE EDIT: Here's a basic mock-up of an index page. http://www.theactusreus.com/schlampe/test.html Assume that the rest of the free site would be business as usual. Who is harmed or hindered by that?

Are you a freaking mind reader? |angry| :D

I am just finishing a site with similar layout index page (but with only 18 recips :D) |catfight|

Here were my thoughts on linking to the warning page:

Sure I already had a warning page on my site so my links may not have needed a warning too. But by linking to the warning pages I am pointing the SE's to the warning page also and giving it the most weight. I guess you could say I felt a responsibility to do so. If the SE wants to index and list things through out the site then that is its issue to deal with.

As for recips, why limit people to just one way to put recips when the current model allows that way and many others?

Other than the hardcore banner and the jibberish text I would have listed sites like this http://www.theactusreus.com/schlampe/test.html

If the recips were LL titles and not a bunch of blind links. And the rest of the site was clean.

Great example UW. I really like the way this is going.

Crazy Sy and Harry Muff ones are good too :)

First of all...as a link list owner I wouldnt mind listing such free sites but as a free site builder I'd never build one.
Most posted arguments pro new free site formula are just bullshit

1) they still wont be updated, and still will be mirrored by those who submit to more than 40 (or whatever number) link lists

2) it wont be any easier for submiters, why should it?
From what I'm seeing more and more free site submiters are using recip table generarots anyway, and those who build by hand (like me) most likely dont give a rats ass if they need to copy all recips onto one page or three.
I noticed many submitters are just changing headers, autogenerating recip tables and submiting - no wonders search engines treat these sites (especially code of the recips which are always in the same order and place) as spam, but I've checked my stats and...
I have different domain for most niches I submit; so far I have 8-12 free sites (submited over two years) on each domain and each domain got 50-650 se hits in march. Some will say thats not much but multiple it by 12 months and 20+ domains and you will get a decent number - definately worth an effort to put some heart in those free sites.

But I also see huge potential benefit
But instead of 40+ recips I belive it would be much better for both sites if submiter placed ONE SINGLE recip link on domain root, allowing him submiting as many free sites from this domain as he wants.
Now that should help getting better rank in se for both
-reducing outgoing links on the free site,
-gaining some decent link backs for LL owner
and finally... making submiters life much easier.

Actually thats the idea I've been working on since a while - I've re-written all my scripts and I'll be allowing such recips real soon.

There's a few sites around that allow that now, porn-xxx-porn.com is one I submit to, has good traffic too.
I like that model, if you can keep track of the non-recipricol recips that's great, hope your script works out.

One thing to consider, some people have just an FPA or a pile of crap on their index though, would they get the same treatment as someone with an actual decent site?

Yeah I've seen the examples. It still looks like change for the sake of changing to me.

People are now and have always been bitching about how limited they are with their designs, that all their sites look the same etc. I for one fail to see how having to cram more stuff on 1 page will give anyone more design options... if anything you'll have less space to move stuff around. If one doesn't have imagination now, it's hardly likely they'll gain anything by the new format either. Who said not to arrange all the recips in a single column with the old format? I've done it, others have done it... it was perfectly acceptable before as well.

I just don't know... It doesn't look good to me, not from a submitters' pov and not from a LL owner's one either. I mean... look: UW, since you're playing "devil's advocate" (I know, I know, you really belive in this). But you have 2 LLs, right? Do you think they'd both make the 40 cut? Because I'm tellin ya, all the people that you actually want submitting to you are now submitting to 60 or maybe 80 LLs, and they're not gonna mirror anymore if with the new rules. They're just gonna drop the "dead weight" and the "reciprocical" submits. So are you willing to pull out your gun and pull the trigger on whichever one of your LLs doesn't make it? Am I the only one seeing A LOT of LLs going under with this? And, ironically, I'm seeing that Greenie and MML and the other top dogs that don't have to worry about it are the ones fighting to keep them alive, while their owners are throwing celebratory designs around the board!

It's about time someone sums this up, and since kit dropped the bomb and left leaving us to fight amongst ourselves, I'm voting UW - cuz he said he could shut down our points but he just doesn't wanna argue with friends. Well I don't think anyone will consider it arguing. We just need to draw a line and check out the pros and the cons and see if the gain is worth the trouble, cuz there's something stinky here and I don't think it's just because Mateusz's feet smell :D

BTW, I REALLY like Mateusz's idea of placing 1 link on the root of the domain and be done with it!

I made up a similiar example last night from a recent site I built that had links down the right side to 12 LL's. The single recip would have allowed me to put 40 in the same area. I like the idea. Only negative is that there may be less recip hits coming across which may be a problem for some.

I agree and did a test with what most do with their recips, including myself, which is a 4x4 table. If you do 1x4 with 10 down each it can be the same is size.

This one I really like. No spammy blind link stuff, which I have been guilty of myself. Just a link to your actual domain name with or without the .com at the end for those that want it. All their spammy stuff can be placed in a title tag. This I think would make it even across the board and stop the problems that MML has discussed with recips getting way out of hand with blind links and third party links snuck in.

The rest of the freesite as UW stated can be business as usual. Or it can even be changed to a 2, 3, 4 or however many pages Greenie and the rest of the top dogs want just as long as the warning page stays.

UW, so what is the difference between that and what we are doing now, besides the number of recips?
So, instead of having 20 recips on a warning page we are going to allow up to 40? Well if we do that why not up to 80 and have two columns?

Is this what it comes down to now? Just the number of recips on the warning page?

Yeah I know thats neither new idea, nor mine. (as far as I remember) Jell was allowing such recips couple of years ago - I never submited a single site but I like the idea.

When it comes to FPA on index.. well... to be honest didn't think of it yet but I guess everyone who takes the time to build quality free sites and not just copy same template without any keywords will take a minute to at least put some links on index so the se can grab them. Most likely it wont be a problem for me.

By the time I'll be finally implementing new scripts I'll be switching to partner only anyway and I'll definately cut those crappy submits I'm currently getting - generated with chameleon submitter where I'm groupped with sites that all belong to one owner and/or his bathroom gang

I think domain root links may work very well for small link lists, like my own. But the larger lists would prefer quantity over quality, and I _think_ that actually serves them better SEO-wise. Each model has different needs. Unfortunately, the one example we have to go by, Jel's link list, didn't become anymore successful than most small start-ups.

One thing to keep in mind is that if you were using category recips on a free site and submitting it to 15-20 link lists, you are already accustomed to having 30-40 outgoing links on your index, not including ad links.

My best guess right now is that if any change does happen, there will be two types of link lists. Ones who only accept the current model and ones that will accept both. Those link list owners who appear to be open to the idea of the modified index also seem to like the idea of having a more favorable balance between content and advertising rather than a 3 links out rule. In other words, as long as the advertising doesn't over-power or conceal the content, there wouldn't be a specified restriction as to the number of ads.

Well, it was. But now it's becoming more of a revamp and change in policy. All of this may go nowhere, so don't worry too much. ;)

If anyone has any suggestions, please PM me or email me - webmaster AT maladaptedmedia.com

|thumb|thumb

Actually big LLs are on a win win position since most submitters group recips by traffic/seo rank (not always but most times both go together) and IMO these mirrors have the highest chance (if any) to get ranked in SE


Yeah, I think its the most possible scenario. There used to be TGPs, LLs, AVSs, TGP2s and lately blogs popped up, I think there is still some place left for another type of sites.

Thats true, there are user friendly (clean, easy to navigate) sites with 3 ads and there are sites with just one or two blind links that would trick the (especially newbie) surfers to visit sponsors.

Thats like selling anything else - there are customers that are willing to pay big cash to get their needs fullfiled but they sure wont spent a penny if they are forced to buy stuff they don't want.

Anyway.. I think 3ads / 12 pics is good ratio and we dont really need more. Definately we shouldnt give out more free content either but I think the content should be the highest quality possible - just the way its in the members area. Not sure how many LLs have this rule but it exists for sure (even if its unofficial one) - pics should be around 100kb. With the all broadband connections we've got today that's just insane - I'd be more than happy to serve 1024x768 or even bigger photos but due to 100kb rule I simply cant :(

So as to not hijack CrazySy's thread I'm going to ask over here.. what does everyone think of THIS SITE I've taken some of the ideas brought up here and tried to keep it within the basic link list rules... would anyone list it?

I would

Floyd, feel free to post any question you want in that thread. I am very well aware that my index page is extremely aggressive, but I made it that way for one reason only and the reason is, I am giving access to my galleries directly from my index page. I knew many people will look at it as a totally fucked up site, and I have no problem with that. I just need to try and see how that concept works, many will list that site and many won't, and I have no intention of changing it. I either submit it to whoever would list it, or keep it for my own use :)

I would. But as far as it pertains to the concerns originally posted by Kit I don't see how it solves anything save possibly the need to make mirrors. So what we're left with is a looser definition of what a freesite should look like (or tighter if this end up being the ONLY allowed formad, by now my head is spinning).

For me personally I'm leaning towards accepting anything that looks decent, has something to offer, and you're not trying to fuck the surfer. Seeing as I probably won't make most people's top 40 it doesn't matter much anyway.

I like the index to gallery page links...looks good Floyd.

Without hesitation. |thumb
I can't remember who it was, but I used to have a submitter that built sites similar to Floyd's example there. I call them linear, where the index leads directly to the first gallery, the first gallery links to the second, and so on. The main page has always been nothing more than an FPA broken into 3 ad blocks anyway. If a submitter wants to experiment with form and drop that page, or offer navigation around it the way you have in your example, I don't see why any reviewer would care.
At this point, I'm on a campaign of free site reform, which includes a looser definition so that builders have some room to breathe and be creative, yet the content isn't hidden from the surfer. Though we have to credit kit with bringing this to the table, I'm fairly certain that we are now on a different track than what he had proposed. Perhaps the end result will meet both of our needs and kit will be willing to list a site like Floyd's beautiful example. Who knows?

Floyd,
I would if my list was on there and most of the others I know would accept this. I really do not expect the bigger, trusted and succesful lists to do so, though I could be wrong like many other things.

Guys!
Please who agrees to accept free site version 1.5 (new format) spam your LLs here:

http://www.greenguysboard.com/board/...676#post395676

Sample

http://www.hornyfellow.com/free/hot-blonde-babe/

Thanks

well, it's a bit early for me to say I'd take any site with this new format, I think there's lots of things that have to be worked out first. I feel like we're still in the discussion stages of this, for me anyway...

and this is why. No offence, it is a nice looking site, but we have talked about not wanting a list of blind spammy links down the side for the recip table, and I'm not sure anyone's agreed on a number or anything, or where the content links are etc. Those are the first things that come to mind.

I like the idea of making some changes, but I'm not going to just throw out all the old rules overnight. There's still lots of people who should have input into any changes that haven't posted their thoughts here.

my 2cents

Old format will work as before :)

Ok
Let's write new rules in a place?