I totally agree.
:)

The reasons for this new design have already been slammed by many here, and all of the current rules are there for a reason.
From a regular freesite builder's perspective I'm excited about the possibility of more freedom, but I'm also very concerned.

My sales from the freesites I build are gradually increasing, slowly but surely. How will a new format affect those sales? Maybe freesites have evolved to a good level for creating sales already, and maybe any changes will see a serious sales drop.

Also, Kit hasn't been back to state how flexible, (or not), he's going to be with his proposed changes, so it's difficult to know how to react.
A split between link list owners over this issue will be a huge inconvenience for freesite builders.
Build two versions of the same site, or drop a load of excellent free traffic?
Slow down a bit! What new rules?
Until the driving forces in link lists decide what's happening there aren't any new rules. Greenguy has already shot down just about everything that has been proposed, and without more input nothing will change.

Yes I would, looks good Floyd. :)

i will not list it.

I think you're all fucked in the head. We're ten hours from the fucking fun park and you want to bail out.

I woke up to that :D
http://www.greenguysboard.com/board/...ad.php?t=46310

I don't think I'd have had a problem with that one last week. Hell, you could move 1/2 those recips to the other side (sorry, 2 include files instead of 1) and probably make DDave happy :D And, if you made that into a table with 4 cells (which you can do with one simple include) and jammed in there under the warning, you'd have a page that I know I see & accept every time I review.

Am I missing something? Are there LL's out there that have a cap on the number of recips you can have on a warning page?

...All the babes are shotted with high-definition cameras...|thumb

Only if the new rules include that you must use poor grammar :D

***

I'd also like to go on record & state that I like "Hairless Chest Mateusz" much better :D

2 Questions:

1. How do the proposed changes make it more friendly to Google?
2. Doesn't the fact the the surfer must click three times to find the porn increase the webmaster's chance of a sale?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Kit's here :D

wahhh i am gonna bann this thread out of my reviewers head, you can do what you want as a free site submitter, you can do what you wanna list as an linksite owner, but the linksites who have me as an reviewer wont agree with those new rules.....NO WAY:D (stu--->>talked with her bosses about this thread and show them all and they refuse to deal with a new invented wheel, old rules will stay on the list, no matter what google or whatever ses does) oh and this also counds for the ones i know for years in this biss submitting free sites, its your choise to make those sites but dont submit them at the list i do, i made already exceptions for you guys, but i wont go that far to list free sites made on these news rules, no matter how many years i know you, nothing personal...just keeping by our own rules!

I almost felt off the chair LOL

|haha

stu<-- see it like this....you free site submitter make a nice surfer friendly free site by the rules of the linksite you submit too......in return....the linksite owner you submit too gives you traffic back but also want some clicks to his site too and get bookmarkers because you made that friendly surfer site, easy to navigate...the surfer dont wanna get overwelhemd( or how the hell you write that) by tons of links, and making the surfer to confused what to click......i wonder in this thread what is more important...to keep your bookmakers with nice easy to navigate good sites, or do you only depend on your ses results...my guys (my bosses) yeah know i am bad here, but they relay on their bookmarkers...they dealed with the ses before, they know how ses can fuck them ( and most linksite owners know how ses can fuck up), but they also believe on their bookmarkers and these new rules wont help to make more bookmarkers, it only make it worser, how the hell a surfer can make a pick between what 40 linksites receips? oh i know where the benefit is....sure the smaller linksites who wanna get listed with the big ones, because tell me....name me 40 linksites who give alot of traffic like tommy , richard, dd, gg etc? But you dont need a tons of traffic to make a sale, your a sales man or not, if 2 or 3 adds a page dont give you a sale then 4 wont work either and tons of traffic also not......you as a free site submitter have it all in your own hands.......and yes tell me i am an moron and then i will say, i dont fucking care, i do know what i am talking about (oke if i am talking in my own language, hell learn dutch sometime:D)

2 hours later, Kit hit the reply button & he's currently almost 20 minutes into his typing :D

Kit is 50 minutes into his reply. It must be nice to start a fire on Friday & not check on it until Monday |thumb

1 hour 15 minutes - this had better be a doozy!

For some reason I've always thought kit was a girl.

What I want to know now is...

Why is there a rush to take up this so-called new version??

Do the people wanting to build and list them.. think that it will be a global panacea for the Free Site business?
What exactly is going to change?
Are you going to make more money?
Are you going to make less money?

Change for changes sake has been proven time and again to be nothing but a waste of resources.. and the sensible and correct way to go about any change that may or may not be deemed necessary, is to HAVE THE DISCUSSION FIRST, not AFTER the format has been decided...

Kit and others may have had a little less opposition and alot more input if the question had been asked.. "How about we look at FS design and see what we can come up with?"

At present - as I have said before - 'people' are just seizing hold of this new idea for reasons that I cannot see or understand.. Less mirror entrances is one thing I suppose... but you have always been able to do that of you own volition.

As my mother would say.. "If Kit told you to jump of the Harbour Bridge would you do that too?"

DD

dont say that, thats something my parents use to say to me, and i am saying to my kids, but then my moron daugther will answer "YES"......yes yes i admit, i have strange kids:D

I'd just like to thank Kit for this big mess he's created.

Thanks for starting the thread. Thanks for coming back & reading it & keeping up-to-date (I know you read it Saturday, Sunday & today) Thanks for being a coward & not posting. Thanks for not backing up your statements. Thanks for not being clear with your intentions. Thanks for re-inventing the wheel with another wheel.

Thanks for nothing |thumb

Its another cold war

Difficult and not clear access to the picture and video content - one of the reason, why bookmarkers drop our stone age LL and go to the TGP or Tubes.
Come one, let's try to make 10 pages between surfer and content. You think you will maximize your profit and traffic?

I suppose, better do not limit the recips number at all. Just don't mention it in the submit rules. BTW, I have no such limitations.

I like #2 and #3 templates much more than #1.
May be suggest a rule "one link to the one LL" on new sites format?

To all, who concerns about 40, 80, 120 outgoing links: Look at the blogs you listed today (if any). There is tons of links there.

Greenie, looks like you don't like me.
Can you tell me why? ;-)

I would (but reviewers don't know about it yet)

I would like to accept new free sites format and accept classic free sites for sure. Submitters will decide themselves, what is more profitable for them.

Please see the hoes.com response to this topic here:
http://www.greenguysboard.com/board/...ad.php?t=46326

thanks,
marc

1) I hope, there is less FS mirrors will burn. There is no reason to link to 40 links sites and make at least less mirrors. 1.5 format is more classic 1.0 format than future 2.0 format, but I don't ready to discuss the 2.0 FS conception. GG will ban me. ;-)

2. Very good question. In fact yes, longer session is cause of more sales. (we actually force surfer click to the couple links before content.) Another thing is a usability ballance. Today classic FS is abolutely worse for 99% surfers and they go to the TGP and than to the Tubes. 5 years ago, classic FS was like a small piece of gold, 10 years ago it was like a diamond. 15 years ago one porn page built in the totally dark garage (PK, LOR, etc.) made their owners rich.
Time changes and nowaday surfers drop us and go to the much more usable sites. Lets simplify FS and make it more usable for the surfers? Yes, the number of the possible sales contacts will decreased, but bookmarkers will stay on LL.

I'd list it in a hearbeat!

I'm a bit late to all this, just wanted to add my 2c

With regards to increasing the number of recips: as a submitter that sounds fab as it would reduce effort but it has SEO implications:
http://www.google.com/support/webmas...n&answer=35769
"If the site map is larger than 100 or so links, you may want to break the site map into separate pages."
I think most people take this to mean that you shouldn't have more than 100 links on any given page. If your recips all have two links (main and category) then your site begins to sail very close to the wind if you've submitted to 40 linklists.

On a general note, I welcome a discussion about the freesite format as I must admit it has become rather rigid. Removing the warning page, however, does feel like you're losing an opportunity to sell.

My own small linklists have happily listed all kinds of sites. Today, for example, I listed this one, which isn't a "free site" in the LL sense of the word.
http://scandalouswomen.com/
But it's definitely worth listing because it's useful to a surfer.

So if someone was to submit one of these 1.5 things to me, I wouldn't be too concerned, as long as it was a quality site.

No one may care what I think but... If we list these sites we are loosing clicks no matter how you look at it. Do you want to give the surfer easy access to get off or do you want to make money?

Our current model works no matter how outdated it is;.

It's not really outdated, it has just been around for a long time. And it has endured because it still works. :)

Anyone remember when coca-cola changed formulas to taste more like pepsi when they started to lose market share? It took them exactly 3 months to figure out they actually had a faithful following that disappeared just as fast as the old coca-cola vanished from the shelves.

The same principal could apply here.

Quite the thread here, a nice mix of drama and business |bananna|

Haven't been submitting for quite a few weeks now (way too busy with other projects and life in general), but I still consider myself "a submitter", so here's my 2 cents.

Yes, I think the freesite model could use some fresh ideas and thinking. No, I don't think the 1.5 model as kit outlines it addresses the core issues that I'd like to see addressed.

I would like to see more room for creativity. I'd like to see more flexibility rather than sticking to the usual 4 pages format. More specifically -

1. I'd like to see room for freesites that have more than one type of content. A mix of stories, pics and movies.

2. I'd like to see room for freesites with more galleries and fewer pics/movies per gallery.

3. I'd like to be able to have more than 3 outgoing links on a gallery page, or on any page for that matter. I'm not talking about banner farms or even link farms with some content at the bottom of the page. I'm talking about being able to highlight words in the text (in positions and context where they won't be blind links) and have some more leeway with text links, while retaining 3 blocks of ads per page (3 blocks but not 3 links).

4. I'd like to see freesites where some of the pages can have full-sized images and/or embedded flash movies rather than thumbnails.

5. Last but not least, I'd love to see more flexibility in recirocal linking. Could be links back from the root of the domain or from a links page in the FS, but not necessarily on the main or index page. If that links page was linked to from every page on the FS, for example, it may get just as much link juice and traffic as a table on the index page, and it would mean we don't do direct reciprocals either. Just a thought, and we might be able to come up with more creative ways.

I think as a surfer, I would have liked to see linklists that truly link to good quality free sites and not just freesites.

When I started in adult web publishing, I didn't even know there was a difference. I heard people mention they were making freesites and assumed there was some missing space there and they meant "free sites", i.e. sites where some amount of free porn is provided in order to lure the surfers into the paid sites.

I've only been doing adult for about two years, and I can only imagine how the FS format evolved (though I'd love to get educated there!). I guess the strict format evolved as a result of webmasters trying to spam LL's with banner farms and sites full of more links and spam than actual content.

I won't even say "as a linklist owner", because I don't consider XLEF.com to be a linklist in that sense. It's a directory to me, because it lists much more than the regular format of freesites. Anything which I feel to be of value to surfers, while not giving away too much free porn, will get listed, and recips don't even have to come from the site itself.

Which brings me to the last point - trusted submitters. I don't even have a submit page, I only take submissions via PM or emails from people I know from the board. My point being, that thinking about the amount of spam and junk the big LL's have to deal with makes me shudder. Having to review sites that don't even have a fixed format would have to be a total nightmare. So maybe the flexibility in formats should be limited to trusted submitters only?

And can't do without some samples ;) So here are some sites which are free sites but not freesites and I would list them (well, ok, they're mine, but I hope it gets the point across).

Black Sluts

Hottie Wives

Wow Tigermom, you just said everything I wanted to say. Bravo. :)

Speaking as a submitter (albeit a lapsed one who is thinking about doing it again soon), your list is spot on. And as a small linklist owner, I wouldn't have a problem with those suggestions (although I must admit, it's not like I'm swamped with spammy submissions... or many submissions at all LOL).

Can the owners of existing large linklists accommodate these suggestions from trusted submitters? Do they do it anyway?

Greenguy - The God?

Yes, somebody still use the horses. I do not adept of 1.5 FS format, but we try new formats to prevent link sites niche degradation.

Who think, we're not degradate, look into your traffic stats numbers for the last 5 years.

This threads all well and good but so far i still haven't seen anything that's going to make a great deal of difference.

40 recips is great to stop mirrors but mirrors will still be built by people submitting to 80 LL so that achieves nothing but it does turn the warning page into a banner farm without images. More outbound links than inbound are a reason a lot of sites don't list high in google in the first place so forty static links would be like waving a red flag at them.

If i am right in my thinking, (and there are people on the board more qualified in seo than myself) search engines do not like listing fs because the fs model never updates.
On top of that the format is easy for se algorithms the likes of google's to spot so if it is listed, the listing is temporary at best unless it has something very unusual to offer.

Search engines, now more than ever, are where sales come from and they are looking for quality active sites that update regularly and offer the surfer something new.

That's something a fs will never do. fs are basically a static advert saying take a look and buy more porn. What good is that to google?

Assuming i am right. Changing the pages or the recips, is not going to make a fs anywhere near as interesting to se's as daily updated blogs or LL and that being the case, the changes mentioned may work short term but in the long run, they will make no difference at all.

Personally i am leaning towards the idea of a few different formats that stay within the standard rules but give more flexibility to the submitters so they can build using different formats.

That may mean more work short term for reviewers but 3 or 4 acceptable models will probably stand a better chance of good se listings than the single one we are all using now.

I would like to hear from someone with good seo knowledge, what they think of this problem. Any takers?

You already have. |banghead|

When Kit will present his view on dynamic FS, that he called FS 2.0 in another thread, your brain will be fucken cracked off :D But LL that will use this technic will raise up, I think...

One thing worth noting I think:
I'm a freesite builder and my sales aren't declining, they're rising.
Maybe they could be rising faster, I don't know, but I'm really happy with the way freesites work at the moment. I'm doing pretty good right now, so from my perspective nothing needs to change. However, I'll happily accept any changes made and adapt accordingly.

:D
He's not a god, but he is one of the main driving forces in link list rules, along with many others. There's a huge difference between respect and kissing ass.

I'd love to hear more about kit's new "2.0" version of freesites - seems like diversity is going to be accepted at some places which is great.
Freesites are what I do 365 days per year - well, almost, so I'm bound to be concerned if changes are made.

lol, Ok I'm giving my opinion then ;)

This thread is typically the thread you know nothing's gonna move with.
Freesite is designed to convert as is, loooking for ways to improve it is adminitting you don't know how to convert with it. Nothing more

|bullshit|

Do you remember back in 98 or 99 when a majority of Link List owners banned Full Page Ads between the warning & main pages? I remember this, because I was one of those Link Lists. Free Site builders bitched & complained that we were cutting down on their ad space. 9-10 years later, you're gonna tell me that I think there are too many pages on a Free Site!?!?!?!?!

Neither do I.


Don't even joke about being banned. There's been one banning on this board based on the poster's opinion and that was because he was attacking a respected member of the board (as well as a personal friend) The fact is that your 1.5 does NOT cut down on mirrors. I don't mind 20, 30, 40 recips on a site, as long as they are laid out properly. I have no idea why people that are on your side keep assuming that there is an issue with the number of recips. If a Free Site builder is making 2 versions with 20 recips on each, that's their business.

Link Lists have ALWAYS been less attractive to surfers than TGP's. Hell, I used to tell my friends to go to Ampland because I liked his site better! But that doesn't mean that Link Lists don't have a good solid base of traffic. Regardless of SE, I know my site can send good quality targeted traffic to Free Site owners each & every day.

Penisbot was registered in June 2000, right? Don't talk to me about what happened 10 or 15 years ago. That'd be like me telling Richard or Persian Kitty how it was back in 95 or 96.

**

Kit - my main two questions are:

1 - Why do you want to eliminate the warning page or warning text?

2 - Why do all these examples of 1.5 Free Sites have the recips on the left hand side?

Let's go from there. I really want to discuss this with you.

The "v1.5" might actually be a good thing for free site submitters.

I have not tested and will never do, I'm only basing it on stats.

2+ years ago, the majority of the people entering a free site, clicked through to the main page.
Today, the majority is leaving when they hit the index page.

main -> gallery, the majority still click through there.

Why do not use "the horse" if people used them before? The cars is more usefull, but that doesn't mean that "the horses" don't have a good audience. You're about it?

I've read abut good old times in their interviews.

**

Kit - my main two questions are:

I don't eliminate the warning text, but warning page is a horrible thing. I can't find the entrance link on many FS (I'm experianced surfer). I guess the surfers do not stand long time with us and permanently migrate to the more usefull sites like TGP and Tubes.

Because I'm lefthander! Right-handers can place recips on the right side. The people, who can play soccer, can place the at the top and the bottom.

The 1.5 FS format is just alternative to the classic FS and provide more flexability to the site builders. Somebody can post old good FS, somebody can try new format. Who accept blogs in their LL, can you find the warning page there? I don't. And I don't see why the FS must have warning page.