Sunday Summary
 

A lot has happened this week. I designed the layout of the site in photoshop. Amareck turned those designs into css code. I installed the Links Sql script and my buddy and programmer, Matt, integrated the css to the scripts and also modded the shit out of it. I spent hours pouring over a sketch book, brainstorming ideas for a logo. Eventually I came up with a visual concept and gave it to a cartoonist who is working on it as I type. The site is, for all intents and purposes, built and without bugs. I just need to get it ready for business which will take up most of next week.

THE SITE LAYOUT

I decided to design the layout in photoshop so I could show you guys n girls my ideas. Furthermore, I decided on a css layout, for which I needed the coding skills of Amareck. I could have saved money and coded in html with a little css thrown in but I wanted the site coded from the ground up in css.

Here are the layouts I did in photoshop :

-- entry page --
-- main page --
-- today's links page --
-- example category page --

I gave these to Amareck who worked tirelessly to get my visions coded in css. He did a superb job and I highly recommend his skills to anyone who wants a site coded in this way.

SCRIPT MODDING & INTEGRATION

Getting the css to work with Links Sql was one job. The biggest job was modding the script to work according to my ideas.

I needed the services of a programmer. Again, for anyone considering setting up a link list, this is an extra expense that is not required for every project. I wanted the script to work in a different way. Lacking the skills for the job, I had to outsource.

Matt is one of the smartest guys you could want to know. An aussie (but don't hold that against him) with crazy programming skills. Even though Matt is a friend, I looked at other programmers as well. In the end I chose who I consider the smartest: Matt.

What I did was this : I told Matt what I wanted the script to do and then asked him to do it. Long story short, he did it.

When the site is ready, you can look around and compare it to how Links SQL usually runs. This will save me writing about his 20 or so hours of work here! lol

LOGO

I cannot stress strongly enough the importance of a logo. University courses cover this subject alone. For anyone interested, here is a succinct article on the subject.

The designer I chose to give me a professional logo is actually not a logo designer. I know, I know. I contacted Dickman designs, spoke to Bruno, who assured me Milena would be in touch. A week later I have heard from no one and had to tell Bruno on icq that I would be looking elsewhere but wanted to inform him first (still no reply to that). On a side not you'd think with the amount of exposure this thread is getting I would find it easy to acquire services.

In the end I chose a designer who does the best cartoons I have ever seen. And believe me I have looked everywhere. Why a cartoon? Lots of reasons. Briefly, it fits with the type of business model I have (link list), and surfers think cartoon logos are professional because they know they cost money (as opposed to fucking around in photoshop).

I chose Twisted Illustration.

Since Dave is a cartoonist and not a logo designer, I had to come up with the design idea myself. He does offer advice but this man's strengths lie in artwork, of which he is masterful.

My Concept

I needed a visual concept that would explain what my site is all about without the use of words or further explanation.

After hours of sketching ideas, I decided on a yellow pages / phone book style directory. I then needed to express that is was a directory for porn movies. I had an idea to make it a bit like a popup book. The directory would be open in the middle and out would be popped a sex scene. To make it seem more like a porn movie, I decided to have a porn director shooting a hot naked chick. Then to make it all look cool, I thought about them kind of MORPHING out of the book. The finishing touch was deciding to have light beams shooting from the pages.

Here is the sketch I gave to Designer Dave :

my logo sketch.

Over ICQ I explained the sketch to Dave and also emphasized some key points. I need the directory book being thick to imply lots of information. I also want lots of stuff popping pout of it (whips, chains, a stocking leg, cum dribbling, a hand, some hair, etc etc). I want to create the impression that on every page there is a new movie just SCREAMING for release. Any second the current scene could be replaced by another as the pages turn. My site has a black background, so I told Dave this would be a cool opportunity to add a wow effect by using beams of light (OTHER MOVIES) shooting from the pages and framing the scene. It is a bit like when they first open that box in the movie Gremlins!

CONCLUSION

We are almost ready for business. The logo should be ready in a few days. I have the mundane task of adding hosted content, fiddling with css, installing some little extra scripts. I also need to be thinking more about getting trades and finding submitters for content. A little seo tip -- get your trades before you submit for inclusion in directories. You might not get spidered again for several months.

Have a happy easter!

Looking good Kristian |thumb

Nice tits. |thumb

I'd like to see the actual pages before I passed complete judgement on them, but from what I see so far, the text on the category & newsites pages are way too big.

That is a fair point dude. :)

The reason I chose to make some headings (ie update dates) bigger than usual is to help in the growth stage. I would usually make them smaller so as to emphasize my sponsor advertising. In the growth stage, however, I'll be selling the site, not the sponsors. I want new surfers to see that we updated that day and so on.

What do you think?

Sometimes it's best to stay away from friends when doing business but I have to agree with you on picking a friend here. I have worked with a few programmers and man just finding one who speaks english and lives close enough to talk on the phone about changes etc is a nightmare. My best friend is one of the smartest computer people I ever met (hes the only one I know who went to computer camp in the summer at age 6). He is the typical sterotype. Very little people skills and walks with his arms stuck down along his sides, lol. Anyway I aksed him two years ago to code me some stuff and he told me it would take 3 months, well here we are 2 years later and he is still coding it lol. But it's nice to know he has the skills and I can call him up and he will come over to work any changes or fixes. You can't get that with contractors. And with any site the last thing you want is someone not calling you back after a few hours of a script problem. Well I love this thread keep it up, good going..:)

Encouragement appreciated dude |thumb

I almost hate to mention Matt here because he is so damn good I don't want him to become unavailable when I next need him. lol I was having major problems with the script. Total nightmare actually. The clouds parted though when he said he could do it (he never says he can do something if he can't). I spent a couple of nights on here until 6 and 7 am staying on icq when he needed to ask me something. The hard part is I'm no programmer. I just know what I want. He had the unfortunate task of trying to make a script work according to my vision (which was pretty unrealistic at times). Anyway Matt will get a big head if he reads this. lol

Glad you're liking the thread dude :)

P.S I'm hoping big head means the same in the U.S as the UK. It does not mean I'm gonna perform falacio LOL :D

Are you going to only have 10 links per page?

Those designs are representative. I'll be keeping links to about 50 per page.

I never know when you're joking or not. |huh

:)

What he's say is, the font used for free site titles and descriptions looks huge on the page. Really, really big.

*scratches head*

I read what greenguy said dude and understood it. Have i missed something? lol |huh

I never joke :D

Like I said, I'd have to see the actual pages, but from what I can see on the examples, the fonts are too big. And it's my humble surfing opinion that spreading things out on multiple pages with such a small amount per page stinks.

I do this for seo reasons, not surfers. Had my site been 10 years old it would not be an issue. With it being brand new I have to be careful about the number of outbound links so I am not seen as a link farm. I actually researched this point a few days ago and it was agreed that 50 free site links per page would be just about ok. The optimum would be around 30 but, as you mentioned, this would look shitty to surfers, so I upped the amount to the maximum of 50. So there you have my humble opinion. I'm not saying I'm right, just that I've researched this and you are the first seo to disagree.

1st off, I am FAR from being a SEO :D

2nd, my thinking has always been that the main goal of my site is to please the surfers so that they will bookmark & come back the next day/week or whenever they surf again.

SEO is fine & I encourage everyone to do some stuff to make their pages better, but not when it interferes with the surfer's experience, because if you never get any SE traffic - or you get it & you loose it for some unknown reason - the bookmarkers are what you will live off of.

SE traffic comes & goes - it's great when you have it & it sucks when you don't - I think |buddy| every day for my bookmarkers.

I agree with the principles of your argument. In fact encouraging bookmarkers has been a topic in this thread and a driving force in my design of the site. Believe me, everything I have done so far has had the surfer in mind (read my comments on the topic).

I think you agree that the fewer outbound links per page, the better. If we can agree on that, then my argument is this : I don't think surfers will be all that bothered about 50 links per page. It works ok for penisbot.com on their free site section. My surfers will just have to click a link and they are on to the next page.

I'm not disagreeing for the sake of it. Happy to be proven wrong. I want to get this site right, as you well know.

My advice is simply to not live & die by SE stuff, because if it never comes or leaves you for some unknown reason, you'll be very happy that you have a solid surfer base established.

I appreciate your advice and I agree with you on this. If you read through my posts here you can see that this is my top priority. I believe I even wrote somewhere about "a surfer utopia". However, If I can use seo without hurting the surfer's experience too much, then I will go ahead and do it.

The reason I need to make this point clear to you, or anyone reading, is this topic of "keeping the surfer happy" is the driving force behind my entire business plan. In a sense, it is the style of the site. With it being the new kid on the block, with us all using similar business plans, this style is my way of market penetration.

The Two Opposing Camps of LL Design
 

Hiya Kristian |waves|

Nice to see you've made a lot of progress!

I met and had a nice talk with Matt online a week or so ago during a chat (on another network) that was nearly empty due to the time change. After talking with him awhile, I bookmarked his site for future LL projects where I want help instead of taking the do it myself approach. Nice to see that I made a good move there. :)

I also wanted to say thanks for reminding me of something I always used to do, but had forgotten about with the new XRT project. You and UW talked about it here:
I couldn't agree more with what you're talking about regarding the value of bookmarkers. There are sites I built where I didn't add any promotions for months, sometimes many months. Letting things age and season a bit has worked well for things here too.

On a side note, I saying thanks since I just spent several days going back through all the templates I built when I set up XRT and have now moved the design back to where I first had it, with no banners or button graphics except those of the site itself.

One last thing and then I'm out of here...

I like the clean design you're using. I like how you're trying to encourage bookmarkers by giving them a clean, well-designed interface that they can use to pull content from your database.

I know you've looked at LOR. :D

Sorry, but I got a big grin when you said to GG, "I think you agree that the fewer outbound links per page, the better." I just checked the "hardcore" category page at LOR. Not counting links to other category pages, I believe there are around 550 outbound links on that page.

I think GG's using that same basic idea with www.pornmovielinks.com too. I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the intent there is to keep making those pages longer and longer until they're just too long (then invent another sub-sub-category).

So --- one thing I'd love to see discussed here are what I'm referring to as the two opposing camps of LL design:

1. Put all the links you can on one long page, using categories and sub-categories to split thing up when you eventually have too many listings on some page(s).

2. Use a "fixed" page size, with "Next Page" style links to move to more content, instead of scrolling down to see more.

Getting a better understanding of "why" someone would choose one design strategy over another could be a very important part of starting a new link list. IMHO

For any LL owners reading this...

Do you think either design has some inherent advantage over the other that you talk about here?

Do you think one design is more surfer-friendly than the other (and why)?


Simon

Here's another thought that just rattled thru my head :)

Every free site submitters knows that the hits come in full force during the 1st day or so of being listed. It trails off a bit after that until they are removed from the "new" page & they are just listed on the category page.

Let's say you get big (and I sure do hope you do) & you're listing more than 50 new sites each day. Every link after 50 gets moved to the 2nd "new" page?

3 days later, they're on the 4th or 5th "new" page where very few surfers will see them?

****

Meatman used to bounce ideas off of me all the time. My job was to poke holes in the ideas so that he could fix them or toss them in the trash. If he had an idea that I could not poke holes in, he ran with it.

I like to poke holes in things :D

Hey Simon |waves|

I'll say one more thing about design on this subject. Have you ever been to one of those tgps that has a million tiny links on their main page? We all have I guess. I fucking hate them with a passion! When I'm looking for porn I don't want to have to SQUINT to find it or spend minutes scrolling down the page to find it.

One of Matt's biggest jobs was modding the directory structure. I have gone to great lengths to make it easy for surfers to find the porn. You will see when I post up the links. I have also made the links and headings bigger than usual for the same reasons. I could be entirely wrong (surfer -wise) but I'm designing a link list that appeals to my own surfing habits : easy to FIND and easy to SEE porn.

Regarding Matt. Honestly, you have made a great choice. As you can see I am as quick to document poor service (Dickman Design) as I am to document good service, so you can trust my opinion. Without his involvement my little project would still have been in the land of the fucked up.

Righto, I'm off to shower and peddle some more porno. I always look forward to your posts dude. I hope we get some feed back on the issues you raised.

****
I'm having fun dude. You're keeping me on my toes and making me think more about what I'm doing. Keep em coming you sexy big green fucker you!!! :D
****

This is a great point. You're looking at it from every angle. Good stuff.

This all boils down to one thing : How much harder is it to click a link and move on to page 2 than is it to just scroll down the page and see the other links. It is a little bit harder (because clicking is harder than scrolling) but not much. So if they are keen to see more than 50 links they are probably just as likely to click Page 2 as they are to scroll down the page some more.

I compromised on some se in the design phase. When you submit a new link, here is what happens :

Example : You submit a cumshot free site.

Your free site gets listed

- New Links
- Cumshots
- Cumshot Free Sites.

So you get your site on 3 pages.

Furthermore!

I've setup the script to encourage quality submissions.

The better your description and site the more clicks and user ratings you will get. The more of these you get the more chance you have of landing on 2 EXTRA pages -- top rated and cool links.

All in all, I would say the submitter gets more here (BESIDES TRAFFIC LOL) than most other link lists.

*smashes tennis ball back your motherfucking way* :D

What exactly will be listed on this "cumshots" page along with my free site? If you tell me cumshot galleries and cumshot blogs, I'm gonna bite you in the face :D

And don't let the submitters pick their own descriptions. Let me put on my SEO hat & remind you that if everyone did that, we'd all have the same text on our pages. Write your own descriptions :)
(and I'm not even going to mention that a lot of submitters stink when it comes to writing descriptions, especially when they get out that keyword generating script)

Most of us submit free sites as well as galleries. We always tell newbies to make two galleries out of their free sites. Nowadays most of us also have blogs. No reason why we can't put all those in one place. What are your thoughts dude?

This is one of the best tips I've had. :)

Greenie --

Been thinking about the links per page. I'm still convinced my reasons are sound, but if anyone knows about keeping link list surfers happy, you do.

A compromise : I list, say, 2 days of links on the latest links page.

Sound cool?

I think that Link Lists list Free Sites, TGP's list Galleries, Whatever lists Blogs & that a combination of any of them do not belong on the same page.

You gonna have a Cumshot Free Site page, a Cumshot Gallery page, a Cumshot Blog page & one that combines all 3?

TGP's are what they are.

Link List work because of the Free Site model: more pages, more pics/movies, more ads.

I think that the current state of blogs is horrendous, with more & more morons using the concept of "blogs" as an excuse to push more galleries.

"A blog is your easy-to-use web site, where you can quickly post thoughts, interact with people, and more."

WHAT THE FUCK IS A CUMSHOT BLOG ANYWAY?!?!?!?!? Let's talk about cumshots, guys! |thumb

If you're gonna list all 3 of these, then we really need to change the title of this thread, because I don't want anyone to think what you're doing is a Link List.

I think link lists list ... links.

Nope. TGP = Thumbnail "Gallery" Post.
I think free sites, galleries, link lists, blogs, are just like commercials on tv. Some are long, some are short.

TGP blogs are pitiful, I agree. I make $15 to 20 K / month from blog traffic. You don't need any pics at all really, just the odd one or two. All you need is to choose the right niche, fuck around with the seo, and use winning text.


I don't own a cumshot blog, but I'd guess it is one about cumshots. I suspect the webmaster has targetted the cumshot niche, much as you suggested I creat a niche site here, in the hopes of getting cumshot traffic which he / she intends to pass on to cumshot sponsors.

Better change the title buddy |thumb

By your thinking, TGP's are also Link Lists because they have a list of links.

Title will be changed, thread will be moved to the Newbie forum & I wish you the best of luck with your project.

No dude. Link Lists list LINKS. Thumbnail Gallery Posts list GALLERIES. That is my way of thinking.

Was it something I said? lol

Then why will your "link list" list galleries?

The bottom line is that Link Lists link to Free Sites & Pay Sites and sometimes AVS Sites & other similar lists/pages. Some have other sections like galleries & blogs & POTD & whatnot, but the main focus is the Free & Pay Sites.

What you are building is NOT a Link List in my eyes & based on that, I can endorse this as a "how to" for building a Link List from scratch.

I have no experience in building or maintaining the type of site that you are building, so I will wish you luck with it & keep my mouth shut |shake|

My site will list ... links.

Links to free sites.

Links to galleries.

Links to blogs.

Links to paysites.

Links.

You've described some link lists, not all of them. The model is not so restricted.

Your call. But I have trouble believing this is your reason. :)

Then please feel free to enlighten me as to what my reason might be :)

It seems clear. You don't like people disagreeing with you. :)

The basis of all the problems is that your definition of a Link List is not the same as mine...and I bet a majority of the board would agree with me.

But what do I know about the definition of a Link List? :D

I define a link list as a site that lists links.

You define it as a site that links to free sites, paysites, and maybe sometimes avs sites. Galleries and blogs are a no-no in your book.

Is that such a HUGE difference?

That is your reason for no longer supporting this project on GreenguyandJim, moving the thread, keeping your mouth shut.

That about right?

Your first remark was a plea for everyone to start posting and hammering me. This last remark was a sarcastic way of implying that you are infallable on the subject of link lists.

Anyone reading our exchanges can see you have been argumentative from start to finish. God knows the real reason. But I feel your attitude has ruined a good thing.

I look like I am arguing with you because I was under the assumption that you were going to create a Link List based on the definition that everyone on this board has.

When you approached me about this project, I assumed that you knew what a Link List is. In the adult webmaster world, a Link List is how I have defined it above & all my comments are based on creating & maintaining one very popular Link List as well as numerous smaller ones that only a handful of people care aobut.

I do not know if there is a term for the site that you are building, but I do know that it is not "Link List"

I'm sorry if you feel offended or angered by this, but I don't know what else to tell you.

I don't want anyone to bash you, I just want you to realize that in the eyes of the people on this board & in our industry, your project is not a Link List.

Kristian I think that most would say you are setting up a directory. At least that is what I would call it.

I build and submit to a few places like that. I have them in both my TGP and LL submit list. The only real issue is you are going to have TGP galleries listed that are just about exactly the same as the galleries on the free sites submitted all listed together.

I accept TGP galleries too but it is a different script, submit form, and my submitters tend to be different then my LL submitters so the galleries and pics tend to be different. Also I have a separate TGP page for galleries that is linked to my LL but is different then my LL.

If I ever started accepting Blogs I would probably make that a separate section too.

I'm not angered. If anyone appears angry here, it is you. I'm disappointed with you.

You are using our disagreement about the definition of a link list as an excuse to terminate your support, unstick the thread, move it, and kill the atmosphere of a public project that was universally liked and helpful to everyone who participated. It is akin to throwing a tantrum when not not getting your own way.

You would have people believe your reasons are due to my "directory structure" alone - the same as that used by penisbot, dangerdave, smut gremlins, off the top of my head. The only difference between my definition and your own is I choose to list galleries and blogs. And for that - for galleries and for blogs - you have reacted as you have done.

I can only speculate as to why you have acted in this way. Surely, however, it cannot be for the reasons you have mentioned. Have it your way though. I'm just sat here trying to make money and enjoy myself. You've sapped my enthusiasm but I will still probably continue with the thread, should anyone be interested.

Hey Cleo |waves|

I agree. I define a link list as a site that lists links. Some people define it as one that lists free sites, avs , and paysites. Some would say this a directory and that's a link list. It is all semantics. This is not the real issue. And I have never said I would be stupid enough to list the same content.

The issue here is due to my site listing galleries and blogs, GreenguyandJim have officially pulled their involvment, moved the thread, unstick it, and destroyed a happy and productive atmosphere. Over "galleries" and "blogs".

Do you think galleries and blogs are a good reason for that? Of course not.

I've always said it, my honesty gets me in trouble. But the truth is I disagreed when I should have agreed. The punishment is a thoroughly bizarre day and a waste of precious time and energy.

All this over blogs and galleries? I don't think so. The green one just doesn't like debate.

I've terminated my support, moved the thread & unstuck it because YOU'RE NOT BUILDING A LINK LIST! I agreed to support a Link List project & not the project that you are working.

All of my opinions are based on what I think a Link List should & shouldn't be.

Had I known that this is the project that you wanted to do, I would have never told you that I'd back it & offer support - I do not know anything about the kind of site you are trying to build, so why would or how could I offer help? I know Link Lists as seen in my eyes & my work.

Shame on me for assuming I understood what you were trying to do. Sorry for the mistake on my part.

You did so because you don't like me disagreeing with you. This is merely a scapegoat you've concocted. The only difference to my idea of a link list and your own is I choose to list galleries and blogs.

I'm sure your opinion would be just as valid if we added the galleries and blogs into the mix.

The site is the same as yours except it lists galleries and blogs. You want me or anyone to believe that stops you adding valuable input? How could you offer help, you say? Greenguy, this is just silly.

Yes, I'm such an unreasonable meanie. I'm sorry for being such an unreasonable, argumentative nasty ole meanie.

What you should be sorry for, Greenguy, is acting very poorly.