Link Lists - Sucking Suckers?
 

Okay Everyone, grab a beer and settle down in your fave comfy chair. This is going to be a long moan

Ten years ago there might have been about 1000 adult WMs. Everyone knew [or knew abot] everyone. Today there appear to be millions of the little f'ers. They're everywhere. They produce freebie sites and galleries by the truck-load

Why can't many Link List owners cope, and TGP owners can? It beats the 'Donald Duck' out of me

The main reason I ask is because there seems to be a growing culture amongst LLs to include a piece of text on their submit/rools pages which states something to the effect of "no emails are sent to sites which are declined/not accepted". Some are well known and [maybe once] revered. Hey! That's fine. They're busy - Right?

Well. With the exception of the few [like Richard's or Tommy's - maybe PK too] there aren't too many sites that get more than 150-200 submits per day. And there are fewer who list more than perhaps 50 'free sites', or sites plus galleries on any given day [otherwise they'd all have a gazillion links since 1994]

At the same time places like The Hun, World Sex, and other bigger TGPs routinely sift through 1000, 1200 or more galleries each day; only including between 50 and 150 of those offerings. The difference seems to be that the TGP sites will almost always mail you as to why you didn't make it, whereas the LLs don't even bother their bahukies. Why?

Is it because if they don't respond you may think that they are behind with their reviews? Some sites may be a whole month behind [like Richard's just now]. It happens. But not may sites let you know they are 'lagging' behind in dealing with your request

If they don't want to list your site and don't respond, perhaps you'll think that they ARE behind. Then you'll forget all about their recip link, and not remove it. Meanwhile they still get a small trickle of traffic from the links of a 100, 200, 500 rejected sites. Then, of course, there's the extra search engine ranking, which equals traffic from being listed on the same page as Richard or Tommy

You mail them after a fortnight. No response. You email again. Just the same. You take down the link, and you get blacklisted for taking down the link. Wait a minute! That site wasn't listed!? It hasn't happened to me - YET! - but I know two people who it has happened to

What has happened to me is that by submitting my effort to around thirty sites, I never know if it has been accepted by more than maybe eight or ten LLs. When you throw four or five sites in each week, how the f**k are you supposed to keep track? Are these people still accepting sites, or just listing their own stuff? They seem to be awake, but when you call there's nobody home

Wet Place [bless him/her/them] may take a week to review, and then do all your sites at once. That's cool. There's even the odd email saying 'You missed this' or 'No alt tag on recip'. That's good too. We all get it wrong from time to time, and they 'advise' you of the fact. Kinda personal touch

I still do everything 'by hand' because I don't have more than about 10-12 subs a day, but I respond to them all and give them personal attention and chatter. TGPs that get hundreds of subs can do it too. Why not some LLs?

It must seem so much more attractive to many newer WMs that TGP, even though it's so much poorer in converting, is a better way of controlling submission strategies than LLs

Is there an answer to all this? I could slim my fave subs list down to a very few 'trusted' sites that I know will communicate. But will they grow so big that they too get 'f-u' fever? It doesn't matter how much traffic you could swing their way, if you can't be arsed to talk to people they can't be arsed to put your link up

What experiences have you had with this?

I can see your frustration.

But I have to disagree with you.

TGPs are not better at sending out emails than link lists are. I have been submitting to tgps daily for at least a year and every month or so I need to "modify" my submit list because there are always some not listing me.

And even the ones that do list me do not everytime. I could give you plenty of examples and none of them send emails saying I was rejected. That's life and that's fine with me. Do I like it? NO! But it's a business and it is fair for these TGP owners to list various people all the time based on content ect.

Link lists that do not send out emails? It sucks but they have their reasons. The most being replys complaining about the rejection. I get them myself with only 50 submits a day.

TGPs do Not sift thru ALL 2000 submits daily. Some do, Yes. But most get what they want and simply can the rest without ever seeing them.

As I said I see your frustration but it is not fair to say link lists are lazier or inconsiderate compared to TGPs because it is simply not true.

The main reason is their wishes to get more and more backlinks from free sites, but never list that freesites. I think it some kind of cheat. And i know another one - ban without notification.

Respect to all owners who send out rejection mails.|shake|

I assume that neither of you have ever run a Link List.

Please don't throw stones unless you've walked in our shoes :D

I don't wanna throw stones anywhere, nor have I walked in your shoes, and can barely begin to grasp the work and hassle with running a linklist, and I don't want to compare apples with trucks, just wanna say I appreciate getting notified. Not because i would necesarilly start pulling down recips, mostly cuz it sorta makes sense - i make a proposition of a biz deal by submitting and it's kinda cool to know wether we have a deal or not, also I dig communication. Some other reasons too. I guess an automated response wouldn't be too difficult, but if ya get a lota bitchen about it, i can see why you don't wanna do. Tho, the bitchen part is odd as you can come here to get an explanation or pointer of what's wrong. But if you don't know it, kinda silly to ask here.

That's all

I got sick of the same sites being resubmitted with the exact same issues 15 minutes after I sent out decline e-mails.

I would empty out my admin and then within an hour it would be full again with a lot of the sites that I had just declined.

I have as a practice been sending out emails when I decline someone for something other than not following the rules - and usually give suggestions of how to fix the problem.
However - in the past I used to send out decline emails - and got 95% of them back bounced because the submitters were using fake email addies with their autosubmitters.

The difference with the TGPs is twofold - first - they have many more reviewers and their scripts are written to auto-send rejection emails in the case where they dont do an auto check of the email addie during the submit process - the second is that the rest use the auto email check and confirmation process during the submit which weeds out the problem of the fake addies.
Linklists at one time were talking about going to the email confirmation process, and the feedback we got from submitters was that was too much of a tradeoff for not getting rejection emails - especially since anyone on a normal reliable host can check their stats for that submitted domain pretty easily to see if they got listed.
The amount of submitters that said they did not want the email confirmation process was so much that at least in my case, I chose to not send rejections for the everyday "Not reading the rules" people but to give responses here and if it was someone on my trusted WM submitter list, I email or PM them privately.

Hello all,

I am making freesites for 3 years now and stopped submitting to a lot of LL's because they only list my sites once in every 10 submissions.

I tried every possible thing what could have caused the decline but it doesn't matter what I do the score stays the same.

I can only think of one explanation
They only take a given amount of freesites for a catagory a day.

Could this be true?

|potleaf|

That is so true. I have a few guys that keep submitting mature vs boy which my rules say I do not list. I send out rejection emails to everyone ut they obviously don't read them so after 5-10 of those sites I banned those people without them knowing. I don't get their submits anymore and their autosubmitting brians probably have no idea.

Don't forget about the "friendly" replies:

Me: "Read rule #xx - site doesn't fit 800x600"

Submitter: "I made site for you. took long time. ALL big boys listed it and you reject? NOW LIST IT"

... and the like.

I still send out accept/reject emails though and I don't plan on stopping with it.

When I first started I was doing everything by hand and even sent out emails of submit status. Soon %50 of sumissions were being rejected because simple rules were not being followed. Add that to all the other problems mentioned above and it really is not worth it. So I quit.


So now I put the resonability on the submiter to make sure their sites fit the rules and are getting listed. And if they are not getting listed then I suggest that they should first reread the rules then either contact the list owner or stop submitting.

Only in that I'm more picky in categories that I get way too many submits to.

Here are my numbers from today.
amateurs (918)
anal (260)
anime_toons (128)
asian_girls (335)
babes_models (477)
bbw (412)
bdsm (292)
big_boobs (508)
cam_girls (50)
ebony (342)
fetish (653)
for_women_only (137)
gay_men (375)
group_gangbang (211)
hardcore (804)
indian (57)
interracial (223)
just_plain_nasty (391)
latina (274)
lesbian (1052)
mature (782)
milfs_wives (322)
miscellaneous (210)
oral (218)
pornstars (182)
reality (138)
sexy_wear (466)
shemales (392)
teen (1204)
voyeur (244)

Hi Cleo,

Thanks for that list very interesting

Are that the submissions for only today?

That are a awful lot of submissions, I had no idea.

Are you kiddin'?

That is not today's submits. It is the total amounts of listings that I have.

After I look at the 30th or so lesbian submit each day I do get pretty picky about taking anymore. Same for amateur, mature, teen, etc.

Build>>>submit>>>forget>>repeat.

analyse after 3 months to determine who is spending too much time on the GG&J board and not enough on SEOing their LL to send more traffic.

Build>>>submit>>>forget>>repeat.

|rasta|

Note to self/tart: build more indian cam sites

|jester|

I was confused by
Here are my numbers from today
|doh|

But I really don't have a clou how many submits the big LL's get.

I have a small TGP that is mostly SE traffic so it doesn't send a lot of traffic. I get over 500 submits a day to it. Right now it has a backlog of 13,000+ submits. WTF!

My LL isn't huge yet, and my script automatically sends out rejection emails. I'm not getting hundreds of submits per day yet, so I have time to type in a reason that the site was declined. In every decline email I send out, I offer another review if the submitter fixes the problem and responds to the decline email within 7 days. Most of my declines are because of thumbs not appearing, clear rule violations (my rules are less restrictive than many) and the like.

You know what? I get maybe 1 out of 10 webmasters who ever bother to fix the problem and respond. Even when the problems are clearly just bad coding or bad links. Those who do are usually my regular submitters, who are appreciative of the "heads up" on the site's problem and I usually hear back from them within 24 hours. These are by default the serious webmasters.

Now, I make mistakes with my freesites just like everyone else does on occasion. The last couple weeks I seem to have been a bit cursed. Most of the LL owners who posted in this thread caught the problems and sent me decline emails. I fixed the issues and then my sites were accepted. I know that this is in part because they know me from this board, and knowing someone (even casually on a message board) does have its advantages.

I'd love it if everyone's LL script automatically sent out decline emails and if everyone had the time to specify the reason for the decline. The fact is that just isn't the case...but I know that if there's a fundamental problem I will find out about it because *someone* will send me a decline email, then I can red flag that site to re-check with the other LLs I submitted to. Is it a pain? Sure...but when I get declined it's almost without fail because I made a mistake or inadvertently broke a rule...so who am I to cry about it?

Running a LL takes more time and effort than I ever would have imagined before I started my own. It can be very rewarding, and I'm lucky enough to have a solid base of good submitters (many of whom are also LL owners who post here). I do the best that I can with the time that I have and try to be fair with everyone...and I honestly believe that just about every LL owner who posts here does the same.

As most of you know I have done only a few free sites so far, and I was actually pleased to get these few listed at well over half the sites I submitted to - THANKS , Guys!
It might have been a little more or less - I'm just to busy (or lazy??) to keep track of things like that!
I was also pleased, particularly with my first 2 submits, that I actually received a few emails saying something like "rejected, but close enough for an email" - and in most cases I either didn't read the small print or was confused by the dozens of recip-link options/categories and picked the wrong one...

Pulling recip links: I never ever do that! It's not really my gallery loosing the traffic, it might be one of the sites with their recip link next to the in-active one. Why should I bother and get blacklisted for a few stray hits?

TGP rejection emails: I do TGP submissions for years, and if I wouldn't keep an eye on my referrer stats I'd never had an idea who lists or rejects me! Dream on about rejection emails from TGPs!! Maybe 5% of them send them out...

It's even that bad that recently I had to take sites of my submit list because the bastards had left their submission page opened despite the fact they weren't taking any submissions anymore (only listing sponsor galleries) - now that's showing real consideration to the poor hand-submitter like me - grrrr
|raygun|

Conclusion: yes - in a perfect world it would be nice to receive a rejection email and get an idea why your gallery/site wasn't listed, but unfortunately today's reviewers/webmasters don't have the time or inclination anymore!
And most software doesn't really cater for it either...

You'd be surprised how many TGPs leave their submit page open but NEVER look at those submits. It's amazing.

Granted my LL isn't as huge as some of the others out there, but I very easily can see how difficult it would be to send a customized email for every single site submitted. I send out a generalized email when I reject a site. Typically 90% of the rejections on my site are failure to follow the rule, so I just refer them back to the rules, and then suggest they resubmit after fixing, or otherwise as here for specific reasons.
I have a life outside my sites as well, so I like to spend as much time as possible with it, not telling someone how they didn't follow the rules properly.
And when I was doing my TGP site, I didn't send rejection letters either. With over 30,000 sites backlogged, it would have been too much!

For two years I emailed EVERY rejection with a personalised reason; but I get dozens of submissions per day from these same people with the same errors and I still have to check them to see if they've stopped the prolem...

So I have two choices - either I blacklist them (then I never see their submissions again and they never get the opportunity to fix the problem) - or I stop mailing (cos it takes forever)!

So I no longer email for a blatant rule breach - unless it looks like it could be an error...

Although - some days (like today) I email them all and patiently explain what's wrong with their sites - I guarantee I'll have 2 hate mails tomorrow and virtually none of them will stop making the same errors...

Also - a gallery is a gallery - lol - it's REAL EASY to review compared to a free site - and it is possibleto get a script to check the whole gallery and accept/decline (with auto message) - leaving the owner to simply sift through the remaining good galleries and pick the first 50/100 he likes for todays additions...

A free site is a whole 'nuther ball game.

Get used to reading link list rules - REGULARLY ;)

And - docholly was dead right :)

Here's the thing (and I am assuming that part of this post is directed at me) I haven't sent out rejection emails since I've been posting on a board. I got tired of it for many of the reasons that have already been posted & then some.

Once I had a regular posting place (Condom, BTW) I simply told people that didn't get listed to stop by the board & ask. My thinking on this has always been that if you do it in public on a board, it might help someone else with the same problem.

I have been thinking of turning on the automated rejection email thing, but I'm not there yet :)

Here is my take on rejection emails, and such:

Send a rejection notice, 50% of the time you get an email back saying "but my site is fine" or "other people listed it" or "your rules are too tough". I don't have enough time in a day to get into a huge debate with each submitter who's site I reject. Imagine that I reject 50 sites per day. that is 25 more emails, 25 more replies, 25 replies to that, etc. (and I won't mention the volumes of bounced mails I got when I did send decline notices)

What is most frustrating is, in the end, most of those guys (and gals) who debate like crazy in email WON'T CHANGE THEIR SITE TO MATCH THE RULES ANYWAY, so it is a 100% waste of time.

I am like Cleo. If I get too many in the same cat, or too many of the same site, or too much similar stuff, I start rejecting sites that pass the rules but just aren't what I am looking for.

I get more than enough submissions that I list right now, I don't have to do anything to IMPROVE that number, I would just be rejecting more people.

A TGP side note: I have seen a few people on other boards selling TGPs and such that they run. They are using standard TGP scripts, etc. Many of them, when you look at the stats, are getting anywhere from 3 to 100 times more traffic to their submit pages than to their front pages.

What a waste!

Alex

I send some rejection emails each day, but the majority of the sites I reject don't get an email. They've been emailed before and they just keep submitting the same stuff with the same problems. I'm not going to write them a little note every day. They obviously don't care. I also don't send notes to people who violate multiple listing rules. If they aren't willing to take the time to read the rules, I'm not willing to take the time to write to them.

I'll write if there is an easy-to-fix problem like no recip, bad links, broken content, a popup, things like that. But if the site makes it clear that they just don't care who lists them and who doesn't, I'm not wasting my time on them. I have a list of 25 domains that I routinely reject without looking at them because they routinely submit crap. On a slow day, I'll review them, just to remind myself why I don't list them. Once in a while, I find something worth listing in those, but not often.

My link list script gives submitters an option to receive approve/decline notices. I'd say better than half the submitters who regularly break the rules have opted out of receiving notice. They are the ones most likely to get banned "without notice."

Those who do receive decline messages often message back with responses that either show they clearly don't understand the rules, or - and this one always blows me away - that specifically state that they've "gotten away" with something before, and don't understand why they didn't this time. Clue phone, line one!

I still send decline messages in hopes that those who receive them will learn; but ultimately, my good submitters would probably get hand-written messages anyway if something was an obvious mistake (404s or whatever). Decline messages are purely a courtesy, and one that is not appreciated the way it should be. I'm still growing, so I can't be as picky as some, but I understand completely why most of the big guys don't even bother.

With all due respect, this is complete and utter bullshit.

I have a question some time now.

The replies in this thread al speak of submitters who constantly break the rules but there is also a group who are trusted submitters and really want to follow the rules.

Do link list owners have a list of trusted submitters?

People who always make sites according the rules but sometimes make a mistake.

And if so do you write them a rejection email so they can change their site?

Yes and Yes

|jester|

My 2 cents to this discussion.

Being new to the free sites "game", I read all LLs rules and, in a first stage, I tried to make different sites matching different rules. Naturally, this was really a pain !

Second stage, use the standard basic rules for all sites and LLs:
- warning page, tour page, 2 galleries
- 3 links per page
- no new windows
- no consoles
- no fpa

Even so, I got sites accepted in some LLs and not in others.

Some sent rejection mails, some didn't, some I asked in this board and got some interesting answers as, for instance, sites rejected because I'm using same template.

Reading through this thread I have to wonder:
If LLs get so many submits each day from different webmasters WTF does it matter if I'm using the same layout?
I'm sure other webmasters will provide the variety LLs require.

Another interesting reason for rejection was that I had my galleries thumbs surrounding the sponsor's banner.
Come on, people, I'm not building free sites to make you happy, I'm doing it to make MONEY.

Anyway, back to main point.
Why can't you LLs guys use THE SAME submission rules? I'm sure it won't be hard to reach a standard basic set of rules that everybody can use.

Furthermore, why not use the same "trusted submitter" thing as TGPs do? It would be much easier to check the sites and send mails if some don't follow the rules.
ie, Cleo was kind enough to point me to a site were I had forgotten to check a 2257 link opening in a new window. I corrected the error and site was accepted right away.
(Thanks Cleo).
Naturally, you would need an option to let new webmasters apply to "trusted" status.

I try to work clean and have "partner codes" to many TGPs I submit to, within my niche. I do the same with my free sites so I'm sure I wouldn't have any problems getting "trusted".

Bottom line, we all want to make $$$ so let's work together and get rich :)

Bert

I can see why each LL has its own set of rules. I don't actually see a whole lot of variations in those rules from one to another. But it makes sense that part of the reason for the rules is to have control of the flow of the LL, whether there is a certain quality standard you want, or a particular consistancy you want your surfers to know they will always find in sites listed on your LL, or whatever other reason. It's the owner of each LL's perogative as owners to establish. I try to make a note to myself as I read these rules if I see one that doesn't seem to be a 'standard' rule. Off the top of my head, I really can't think of any that I have actually seen though.

Along the same line of thought, as a submit I have the right to chose to not submit to a LL that may have rule that I prefer to not build my sites to conform with. To me, its just that simple.

If I hated to wear shoes in public, I'd be sure to steer clear of establishments that insisted I wear shoes. Their rules, but I don't have to participate. If I was in majority on barefoot-advocacy and the general population began to refuse to frequent the one place that had an anti-free-foot rule, they'd have to re-evaluate that rule in order to not risk loosing business.

I think this provides a balance of making sure that there are standards without attempts to impose impossible rules.


As for rejection emails...I certainly would never expect one, but I really really appreciate the ones I have gotten. They usually come the morning after an attempt to submit a site way past my bedtime. These rejection emails alert me to stupid errors on my part so that I can correct them pronto. They don't all give a reason, but I especially appreciate when they do. I've even had an owner/reviewer send a really nice email when a site submitted months prior was discovered to have one bad thumb link. That one really went out of their way to help me out! They now have an eternally grateful newbie.:)

I'd really like to turn my email function back on, but it just got to be way to time consuming dealing with all the responses to the rejection emails.

My rejection email used to give a half-dozen reasons why a site could have been rejected, plus a link to my rules page (I'm up to a staggering 11 rules), and another link to a webmaster update page that contained a bunch of ramblings about what I'm doing with my site. I still got too many "what's wrong with my site" replies to rejection emails. |angry|

I've never failed to respond to an email asking about a site, or a submitter in general. I've even had a few PM's over here asking about sites. By not sending a rejection email, it put's the onus on the submitter. It takes just a few seconds to respond to an rejection email, but it's more time consuming to initiate the email to me asking about a site, so if you're doing that then maybe you're a little more serious about this business.

Having said all that, I'm toying with the idea of turning the acceptance email thingy back on.

I just turned mine back on.. I put in the reject note that replying to it goes to an email that will not be read and to contact me through the boards I frequent (with links to them on the rule page) if they have a question. The same info is repeated on my rules page.

We'll see how it goes :)

Good idea. Might have to try that.

When I started a LL I sent out reject emails, but after several nasty replies back for my time to point out why they hadn't been listed I stopped for any obvious rule breaking. 9 out of 10 are bad recip. although I remind them at the start of the submit form.

I have sent out emails to some, even 3 times to one well known LL owner who comes here. Even that LL owner still submits with an obvious mistake.

On the flip side when I submit and get a reject and can't find any rule broken and try to follow up why, I rarely get a response any ways. I have however had sites accepted up to 9 months after being submitted.

I do the same on my TGPs: the email is only there for script use, my other email is at my main domain, so people who don't even read the email properly and just click 'reply' are sending all their complains to 'never-never-land' LOL

Cleo,
I have seen your TGP on the date base of a popular TGP submitter. That could be the reason you are getting so many submissions. You might want to send email to the "TGP Software" guys to exclude your site from their data base if you want to get less submits.

Neo

I know it takes lot of time and energy to run a Link List and it is not easy to deal with those replies you get from a rejected free site submitter.
But it would be really nice if you could send a rjection email for reasons other than breaking your rules.
For example I once got an email from Cleo saying one of my banners is not showing up due to wrong img src code. I fixed it immediately and got listed all the places. Had she/reviewer not sent that email, I might have got rejected from all the link lists and never knew about it.
Smilarly I got a rejection mail from Ramstar about a Bi-sexual site saying he doesn't list gay sites. Nice! It helps me not to repeat that mistake again.

Also it would be nice if you let the submitter know if you are black listing.
I once got banned from one of the BIG link list by "accident". I was lucky that I was on the reviwer's ICQ list and he is a great webmaster. Guess what? Now I am using his Friends page to submit and evry single site I make get listed.

I know a time will come where you can fill the link list with sponsor hosted sites and your own sites and may few other link list owners' sites. But it would be really nice if you could consider us, honest webmasters who give our time, content, bandwidth and effort to make your site better, hoping that we can get some sales in return.

So it would be great, if you can send us rejection emails for resaons other than breaking the rules.

Neo