So, I have been thinking about this Cambria Struggles in Senate Porn Hearings
 

It seems that at least once/day there is a commercial on TV about the Vchip. You know, those little PG13 Ratings in the corner of TV shows that the Vchip works with.

So, why have computer manufacturers not used the same technology? Wouldn't that solve all the problems. Parents could put in the PC or Mac that it can't access anything Rated R or above and the government could fine any adult site not willing to comply.

That puts the responsibility back in both the parents hands and the website owners hands.

Just an idea...

I for one would not mind a general rating system for every US hosted website - it'd be a HUGE pain in the ass to set up, but that's what search & replace it for :)

Hell, get the SE's involved - no rating text on the page, no listing - that'd encourage webmasters (mainstream & adult) to get their sites set up properly.

A hard chip embedded into the mobo might even withstand the hacks of most if not all of the savvy youth, which a software solution thus far has been unable to do.

One problem with any type of security that depends on the adults technical savvy is sure to fail as the youth of today are so much more advanced then most of their parents and they can bypass everything available today that the parents have the ability to set.

You would be amazed at how naive most computer users are even to this day. A perfect example is that with at least 50% of my new clients, the virus protection they received with their new computer has expired and they just ignore that. they are just surfing along with out any protection at all, and most do not even realize it.

There absolutely must in my opinion, be an effort by the webmasters to somehow identify their sites as pornographic or adult, but after they do so the responsibility must then fall on the parent to filter what their children can access.

A v-chip sounds good, but would that be enabled by default on all new computers? That would cause an uproar larger then any seen before. So it would have to be shipped turned off by default, and thus would be absolutely worthless as most people would not be bothered to enable it.

Yeah, it really wouldn't be that difficult. That way, no parent has to buy any software, people not using IE would still have protection and all would be right with the world.

It could all be the setup of a new computer. When they first fire it up, like AOL, it asks if someone under 18 would be using it. Then, the adult could then have an option to pick a rating that the computer would go to. We can't do everything for the parents but we can do our part.

My feeling has always been that without a rating meta on page, browsers by nature should not open webpages. Regardless of the nature of the site, rate it from G to XXX and away you go. Use similar guidelines to those in the TV / cable industry, with the understanding that we have net ratings that are far beyond normal TV.

Most importantly, these ratings need to require nothing more than a meta tag put on a page. No registration, no forms to fill out, no bullshit. Quite simple, we rate out pages, and the browser manufactures key on that tag and work from there. Over a period of time, all pages would require to be rated, and in the end, (say end of 2006) all browsers must be compliant as distributed in the US.

If someone wants to manually write a work around, it would be no different from password trading or hacking. I am sure people do it, I am sure some people would get past the blocks, but the reality would be that our industry (and the web as a whole) would have made a good faith effort to allow parents to control their children's access to adult material online.

Sometimes the simpliest solutions are not the ones people will even grasp.

Alex

I wonder how any one or any government can get the entire internet to agree on something. Take a look around at the real off line world and tell me the online world of more anonymity could work better on reaching an agreement? I hesitate to believe that it could ever happen.

Then again what do I know. Good luck in your efforts.

why doesn't the adult industry git together and hire some programmers to create the ultimate blocking software for kids and give this software away for free?... ( just think of the PR..)
if the big boys of the industry split the cost of developing this it would be negligible and then nobody (disgruntled parents) would have an excuse for not using it since would be free easy to install and set up, works on all platforms and if you set up the development ( open source perhaps?) right it could probably be a major tax deduction and cheaper than the attorneys needed to fight with Congress/whoever...
...

have everybody put links to some place it could be downloaded from like sourceforge.net

just a stupid idea from an idiot what do you think?|waves|

Why do we need a chip? Browsers currently have the capability in them today. Unfortunately no one seems interested in using them.

I know people aren't big fans of ICRA labels but I use them and I get emails every couple of months from some one unhappy because their kid purchased a membership to my site.

Doesn't IE support rating systems using ICRA labels today?

I'm happy to use meta tags and labels. I don't care what it is but sooner or later we'll have to use them so why not start now?

I've used ICRA tags from the day I learned what they were. I rate every page on every domain the same, as if it had hardcore everywhere...that way I can use a domain-wide tag and not worry about it.

The thing that really pisses me off about all of this is that filtering software DOES work...IF parents take the 5 minutes to set it up. OF COURSE filtering software doesn't protect kids from porn if it's not installed or configured, and sites hosted overseas are beyond the reasonable reach of the DOJ anyway. This is just another example of our industry getting bashed because it makes good headlines.

Admitted, that the US govt DOES have enough pull to require all the major pc manufacturers to require them to put such a chip in every computer sold in the US.

The manufacturers would fall right in line with little hesitation.

As far as demanding the rest of the world to follow the requirement of putting a rating on their sites, that is absurd.
But If the chip once enabled (by the owners choice only) will only allow that computer to view rated sites, then it is up to webmasters in the rest of the world to decide if they want the people who have the chip enabled to visit their pages. They can either voluntarily put a rating on their sites or basically ignore the request and thus those surfers.

The question then lies...who checks to see if the webmaster put the correct rating on their site? Or for that matter which rating a site should have?
Big Brother and a taxpayer funded watchdog group? The bible Thumpers? George W himself?
Who could enforce if I put a pg rating on an anal site?

Guys this isn't the isolationistic society of pre WW2 U.S. This is a global problem and has to be address as such. If one or two countries make something illegal there are plenty of other countries willing to make money from that ban because of their morals and their societal mores.

Just like drugs. Look how effective our laws are at taking drugs off the streets and out of the hands of users.


While I have no solution I certainly admire the global problem.

You're correct Srufn.

However, if programs that use American billing systems start requiring webmasters to use labels, Google, Yahoo and MS all support them then that would cover the vast majority of what's out there.

Sooner or later Visa will come under pressure from the administration and if no rating system is on the table then they'll have no choice to pull out of adult completely.

The rating system built into browsers works fine if us webmasters choose to use the labels and someone starts educating people on how to configure their browsers.

what if we took the first step and requred labels on all submits

Madmax: ICRA tags are a waste because they require active registration. It should not be any more than a regular meta tag you just put on the site, not a registration process. Registering websites just makes another profitable non profit organization with people on the payroll making money to do nothing.

Tommy, it would be possible, but we would need to set some standards and make it easy.

Alex

Agreed, it should be as simple as adding to the Head of every page

Toby, that just sounds far too easy LOL Is it really possible?

Can you just make up a html tag like META NAME="rating"? What would be required for that tag to become official?

I put ICRA labels on my sites, it's a nice way to prove I'm making an effort.

I didn't make up the the tag, it's completely valid HTML. However, at this point in time there is nothing built in to any of the browsers to utilize it.

Hey Tommy,

That might be doable for those you who have paid reviewers, but for myself, I can't imagine the extra overhead that would create. I certainly don't have time to view source on every submission to check for a label.

There has to be another solution. |huh

A script modification that would simply look for the label would be fine.

Perhaps our website should state clearly that there already is a way to label websites that is supported by browsers and we are using it. Unfortunately it has issues and we are willing to make a more easily used standard.

Alex, you don't actually have to register. It's a strange process that helps them send out urls to blocking software. Any ICRA tag, from any website can will actually work and I just have it on my server.

Toby, sorry, maybe that didn't come out right. I could see it was good html. :)

Perhaps we can ask the open source geeks at Firefox to make a plugin for their browser?

That could work, if I can convince the programmers to add that to my LL script. But, I have another worry. I might not get any submissions if I do that or very few at first. Howlong will it take the freesite, gallery submitters to jump on the bandwagon?

I guess I could always give 30-90 days notice on my webmaster submit and thank you page, stating that after that time period, no more submissions without a label will be accepted.

I'll let the big boys make the first move. |goodidea

Yep, you can make up any meta-tag that you want. The software(browser) just has to be programmed to actually read it.


Before we get too far, you might want to read what the right thinks of the hearing.
http://www.avnonline.com/index.php?P...tent_ID=255628

"Jack Valenti, former chairman and CEO of the Motion Picture Association of America, told the Senate committee that it's really up to parents to control what their children see on television. "

The response from the right: "Brent Bozell, president of the Parents Television Council (PTC), remarked that by placing the entire responsibility on parents does nothing to solve the real problems faced by families."

They refuse to take any responsibility as parents.|club|

...as well as legit warning pages with no nudity (and yes, I am serious)

The really sad part is, many of us are already doing these things, and Mr. Cambria didn't know enough to say so when given the opportunity.

Cambria is a brilliant man, studied material and spoke to what he thought were experts in the field. Unfortunately, this is a common issue with executives. They often chat among themselves and their peers and end up not having a clue what's happening in the trenches. My guess is that he has spoken with Larry Walters who is trying to patent and make a killing on his verification system so he was misinformed about what's happening in the real world.

Cambria obviously was not the guy that should be talking about technology. He was accompanied by 2 high profile executives that also do not know what's happening. It's normal for these folks to jump at the chance to speak in front of congress as it looks great on the resume and a nice story to tell.

Cambria was probably the right guy to deliver a speech.

In the world of securing large scale networks we had a solution for this. We would always pair an executive with a well spoken and well groomed tech guy.

At any rate, it seems clear that we need to educate not only the world but our legal counsel.

SirMoby, I fear that you are correct. Some people are almost certainly attempting to manipulate the system to get their product to be the prefered system, thus making a total ass load of money.

It is also clear to me that most of the major studios and larger "name" membership sites don't feel that they would be major losers if free online porn went away. In fact, I am sure that most of them feel that they would profit directly from the removal of free sites, galleries, and TGPs. These woul often be the people that Cambria would be speaking to, and their slanted view of the world can change what it is that is said in public.

Any system for filtering that requires any registration or logging of pages is an unreasonable burden. Any system that requires payment, a credit card, or other action that requires registration by the end client is a unreasonable restriction of free speech (one of the reasons COPA keeps failing).

As a free site webmaster, I am loath to have to go back and register each page I make with ICRA or to make every site into some sort of AVS site that profits a third party. I also feel that this sort of "top down" order within the US would have only the effect to move porn offshore and not limit or restrict it in the slightest. Companies and sites would move to better jurisdictions, and because the net knows few boundries, the porn would still be there, and the children would still have access and nothing will have changed. The USA law makers need to realize that the tail cannot wag the dog, even if the tail is a really big tail.

Alex

well here we go again.... time to worry again? does anyone think this sort of regulation will be drawn out for years or sooner?

the US GOV in there attempt to clean-up porn on the internet and keep it away from minors is a good idea... but the whole world is not gonna go along with it... and look at most adult owners with children using the pc at home most wont even maintain there system or even update to a browser that would filter out porn content...

Also what is the most likely future of our biz we built up?

That's all very true but I don't care. I've labeled everything on all of my servers so if parents want to take the time to protect their kids they can.

I would also like to organize, motivate and get moving a solution that would allow more webmasters to more easily label sites and create a website to educate parents in blocking adult sites.

Sure some stuff will slip through but does that mean that we shouldn't accept responsibility and that we should not put forth some effort?

Seems like the normal thing to do in this biz. Everytime I start making progress, something new comes along that threatens to wipe out my entire adult biz.

This is what gets me too. All the U.S. govt is going to succeed in doing is putting out a lot of hard working American adult webmasters. There will still be loads of free porn everywhere, thus not solving anything. I'm not sure what the government is smoking, but it's gonna be some heavy duty stuff.

I can't speculate on that, but suddenly mainstream seems so appealing.

Quick question SirMoby.

Would all pages need a label directly within the page?

Would it be possible to submit your domain to a database or something that is setup to hold adult urls, that is checked as surfers browse sites?

For example, maybe a parent could go to the site that is setup to provide info and how to protect their children literature. If they chose to use the technology, they could download your software and install it, that then queries the database when browsing sites for possible adult domains. If it finds that it is an adult site, maybe it could permantly block it, where it would no longer query that domain if attempting to suf it, but just block it out.

I don't know too much about databases, not much at all in fact, so this could be not even possible to do. Or it may cause severe slowdown when browsing.

If this could work, once you submitted the root level domain, it could automaticaly assume any subdomains or directories on that domain are therefore adult as well.

This probably is the dumbest idea yet. But, If I hadn't of ran out of |potleaf| yesterday, I could of probably been a lot more creative. |loony|

Interesting were having this debate when in the court rooms pedophiles are getting almost no punishment.

In Wisconson

In Vermont

In Mass.

That is sickening. Wtf is wrong with these judges? |club|

Right now it's not difficult to use ICRA labels across your entire server or domain. When it's server based you register 1 url and then add it can be added to all domains on the same server.

There's no need to download any software if they're using IE because it's built in. I think if it requires additional software then it's too difficult for parents to use and someone has to maintain that software.

As pointed out by a few others meta tags would be best but I think we need to start educating people on ICRA labels and present a better alternative fast.

I don't see why ICRA is in any way preferable to using meta tags. If we are going to invest energy into something why not pick the better technology first?

I'm not familiar with how the current blocking softwares work - but many of us already put metas on every page to help blocking softwares. How do we find out wether the blocking softwares are reacting to these common metas?

ICRA labels are not a preferred method but 95% of the computers in homes today support the ICRA labels. Meta tags are far easier and a preferred method but I don't think IE supports them out of the box.

My suggestion is that we make the FSC and the Senate aware that ICRA labels exist but are not a good long term solution and promose the meta tags. Until then, we should support the use of ICRA labels as a temporary solution that needs to be updated.

I would not place my faith in a third party solution. What happens if ICRA folds, gets sued into the ground, or otherwise disappears?

Simple solutions are better than complicated ones.

Alex

I also don't like the idea of relying on a third party. There are already way to many thrid partys involved in this problem - varying browsers, varying blocking softwares with proprietary lists, etc.

But, the core idea of somehow getting the FSC , Senate, and others* to start talking about these kinds of solutions, sounds right to me.

The problem being that we have no access to the senate and almost none realistically to the FSC. The FSC has no internet department or experts, or so it seems.

So, does it seem then like the first step is to somehow get the FSC's attention?

What are your thoughts on how to inform the FSC and senate?

* the others being presumably microsoft, apple, and the browser manufacturers.

There's one person on the board at FSC that may be approachable on the topic, Conner Young from YNOT