If a sponsor pays for advertising, Does that make them a better sponsor?
 

I'll get straight to the point.

There are many smaller "micro niche" sponsors that are solid moneymakers but don't have thousands of dollars set aside in their budget each month to advertise on all the various industry message boards.

I feel a lot of good programs are in a way "censored" out of the main forums because they are not "Paid Advertisers".

Is this doing justice to the forums readers?

Is this in a way some type of censorship?

Discuss.....

Cheers,
BV

I'm not sure what you mean by censored. Give me an example.

If you're speaking about sticky posts & announcements that are not moved to the "spam" forum, can you think of any other scenario in all of marketing where companies got free advertising because they're small?

I was thinking that's what he means but the word "censor" thows me off.

Yes, I can think of some, but I'm not asking for free advertising and I do realise that this board is a business and it generates revenue by selling advertising.

The point I am trying to make is paid advertisers have the largest voice and most exposure and leeway.

Very similar to how big corporations have lobbyists in Washington getting their voice heard and the small guy has no voice.

Is this in the best interest of your readers?

censor: verb
1. forbid the public distribution of

Sponsors that don't pay for advertising are forbidden to make announcements in the same forums that paying advertisers do. So in essence they are censored. Right?

I've been censored here a few times in the past and now I know better what I can post as well as where I can post it.

I also understand that it can't be a free for all spam fest for everyone because that wouldn't be good either.

I'm not sure what the solution would be to have a completely democratic webmaster forum. It's probably impossible.

Maybe open up some more affordable advertising methods like selling announcement posts would be cool with me?

Cheers,
BV

Nah...you have to think of webmaster forums like one of those free newspapers as far as advertising goes. The only difference is forums don't charge for advertising in the "classifieds" section.

As far as the word censor...it doesn't really apply. If a new, smaller program wants to make an announcement, there is a place for that without cost.

We obviously have a difference of opinion because we are both biased.

No surprise there.

Cheers,
BV

I have been on both sides of the fence. So, I'm not really that biased. But, I have tried to think of any similar media outlet or business model that doesn't offer better advertising to someone paying.

Give me some example of a similar business model that does what you think webmaster forums should do.

Interesting question. Public forums are free to use and offer a free service for the most part, yet many if not most have an underlying profit motive. I can see where things get a little cloudy. I guess the owners of the board have to use their disgression between what is spam and what is useful information. But, money talks for sure.

No, censorship would only apply if you paid for advertising yet still could not make announcements in forums set up for paid advertisers.

You're basically asking the board owners for free advertising.

You think FOX is giving away free ads to smaller companies today? Are they censoring Mom & Pop's Dry Cleaning by not running their ad for free?

Your use of the word "censorship" in this thread is |crazy|

That's a perfect example of what I am talking about. I couldn't have come up with a better example myself.

FOX's viewers are so far out of the loop it's not even funny.

Check this out and you will see what I mean if you don't already: http://www.outfoxed.org/

You guys are getting all defensive and missing the whole point of this thread.

I don't want free advertising.
I never asked for it.
I just wanted to know if you thought it was fair to the readers.

thats all

Do deep pockets make them better sponsors? Certainly not. Most of them started with lots of playing cash, which afforded them the path to creating even more. That's just how capitalism works.

It doesn't seem like you see many small budget start-ups becoming much more than what they started as in this business. I don't really know why that is. It's not as if the reps working for the larger sponsors seem to know what they're doing or even care. The most knowledgeable people I've spoken to are actually the owners of small programs.

I first read this thread late last night and I've been pondering how it would be feasible to allow small programs to make announcements on a main board without creating a total SPAMfest. I suppose a board could sell individual stickied threads for a fair price with no banner advertising included. Obviously, you couldn't allow free-for-all spamming. So a price and discretion would have to be attached to such an action. If I was a program owner who had the ability to write good marketing text, I'd rather have a thread than a banner any day.

FOX was a poor choice, I suspect. Look at any media outlet as long as they don't run on donations only and you will see the same business model.

Your bottom line question seems to be "I just wanted to know if you thought it was fair to the readers". I have to answer yes. We allow any program to make announcements in "webmaster news", "newsletter" and "products and/or services". If a reader is looking for something in particular, they can ask for it in "i'm looking for".

I never thought you were looking for free advertising. And, I have not been defensive. I just thought this was a good debate.

I only pointed out FOX because of today's big game.

And we do help those that help us - there are members of this board that are very active & helpful & part of the community that we allow to post in the main or one of the topic specific forums when they have a big announcement. Ask Ramster, Linkster, Preacher & a couple of other members whose names may or may not end with "er" :)

This isn't a free for all message board run by a non-profit organization where nothing is censored. Jim & I are here to make money while we help people. This isn't a big secret.

I'm still not sure why you think a small business should have free advertising just because they are small.

Why do you keep saying that? I never said that and I am not saying that.

I was just thinking about the readers and what the consequences were of them primarily being inundated with paid adds and paid spam posts from your advertisers.

Exactly like what FOX news does. That's how they make money and that's how you make money.

You are right, it's no secret, i didn't say it was. I was just asking how fair is that to the readers?

I believe that smaller programs should remain hidden, as it creates less comp for those of us sending traffic to them. :)

-N

Why should this forum be different than any other aspect of life?

Pick up a newspaper. Turn on a TV or radio. Surf the internet. Drive in your car & look at billboards. Go to a sporting event. Everywhere you go, you are seeing ads.

And let's not forget that I publish my stats a couple times a year. There are big programs in there & there are small programs in there. There are board sponsors in there & some sponsors are not. If anything, this aspect alone should set this board apart from every other one because my stats are an honest & truthful evaluation of the sponsors that I am using & none of the link codes on there are the codes that we use for the board advertisers.

You know what - if you just left it at your 1st question:
If a sponsor pays for advertising, Does that make them a better sponsor?
I'd agree with you. I think most people know this as well. If it was true, every beer drinker that watched the game yesterday would buy Bud for the rest of their lives. Do you think that's going to happen?

It's the nonsense that the board is in some way censoring small companies that has me so pissed off, because that's a very strong word to throw around & I really think is has no business in this discussion.

It doesn't make them a 'better' sponsor. It simply means they are paying more for advertising in order to be more high profile on the boards.

It's not about favoritism on the part of the boards. Message boards are a business, period. They sell ad space, like any newspaper or ad vehicle out there. You aren't going to get a full page ad in a newspaper unless you pay the big bucks for it, why should a message board behave any differently?

There are plenty of ways to get exposure to a smaller program without resorting to having to part with thousands they might not yet have. Paying for a sticky doesn't cost all that much and is pretty high profile. Program owners can also buy the sigs of a handful of posters and glean a lot of exposure across several boards that way. Or try offering a few smaller prizes in some of the webmaster events such as sports pools.

But BV you know all this already. You've been at this game for some time.

Lastly, I don't see anyone getting defensive here.

To be fair, Greenie is getting a little defensive :)

Exactly. That other board has been doing this for years.

This or any other board could offer paid sticky "announcement" threads for a half day, full day, 3 days, a week, and charge accordingly, which would allow smaller programs an avenue of affordable_yet_high_profile ads on as many boards as they wished to purchase from.


I concede there was a little defensiveness, but not without good reason. :D

We talked about offering announcements a day or two before this thread started. We have a few things to iron out but who knows?

What injustice is being done is what I really want to know.

Ill ask a question for a change instead of making an obvious answer.

You fucking bet I'm getting defensive.

Even if it's implied that censorship may or may not be happening on this board, I get defensive.

I think this is a great board & a tremendous resource for any & all adult webmasters where Jim & I pretty much let anyone post anything as long as it's part of a valid/legit discussion. We have soft deleted posts for our own protection, but to think that because we accept money for ads we are censoring those that do not have an advertising budget is fucking insane.

I just can not wrap my head around this concept.

Sorry, maybe i should have used restrict, it has similar meaning but sounds much better.

There is no reason to be pissed off GG. This is pretty much the business model of most all webmaster forums. Not just here. So this is not just about you and this forum, but all like forums.

Basically it could be compared to a TGP or Link List for porn surfers but instead of serving up pron, GGJ readers get access to all these useful posts full of search able information at no cost with trade off of being exposed to advertisements which could be compared to the paid add spots on some TGP's.

The outcome of which is that only the advertisers which can afford to pay get most all of the exposure and sign ups.

This may be the perfect scenario for the forum and its advertisers but is it perfect for the readers?

Do you see how they possibly are being restricted into what they are seeing?

That is all I am talking about.

No different than if I ran a TGP and was asking what would be the affect on my porn surfers if for example I switched from open submissions to say just paid submissions.

No Worries!
BV

I don't think a sponsor paying for advertising is a better sponsor. At the end of the day the best sponsor is the one I'm making good consistent money with. I could careless if I found out about them from a link in someones sig or on a paid spot on the board.

That being said...

I would hope a small program that is being run right and is properly investing money back into the program would begin to become a medium program. From there go on to become a large one.

If not, sounds like the program might not be around in the long run and the work put out to promote it maybe isn't worth it.

At times a good grass roots way of getting things going goes a long way. Hearing it from other webmasters on other webmasters pages off their sites when you are submitting or traffic trading. etc.

GG quit being so polite :D, I think you have 'extended courtesy' to this thread for much longer than I would of...



This is the/your key question!?

Which should only be answered with another question.

Why does it have to be "fair"?
The premise of the question assumes that "fair" is good, or that "fair" is what should be aimed for.

That is simply not the case, this is a business and "fairness" is a great way to make your business go bust!


Additionally, the premise of the question assumes that we "readers" are too stupid to go look for small programs on our own... and have to have them 'spoon-feed' to us in special 'sticky posts' - another false premise.

Most, if not all of us can use the many other resources of our business( that have been supplied for years for free) to track down any number of small programs.


Thirdly, my 'smaller program' gets valuable free advertising from this board and others, because of the contribution I make... no freebies for being small, just a little thank you and reward for adding to the community(another 'net fundamental)

Your 'argument' has been flawed from the beginning and holds no value..

DD

Dave, your posts always cut through the bullshit. A real breath of fresh air. |thumb

Well that could be true for some, but there are many circumstances where this might not be true.

For example, in my case, I chose to stay in pretty much one little niche. For the longest time I didn't even have a so called "program" just 1 site. This may or may not have been a mistake on my part as far as becoming a large sized program with a dozen sites in many niches.

I like what I do. I've been doing it for almost 10 YEARS now as I 1st started in 1998. If I am still breathing I can pretty much guarantee you I will be doing this for another 10 years.

My niche turns me on and that helps me immensely in turning my customers on. I pretty much used to do EVERYTHING myself from the minor coding to designing to shooting the content. However lately it has become too much and I do have other photogs shoot for me as well as hire out a lot of more advanced coding jobs.

The problem for me is that I am a small sponsor with a 4 or 5 sites in 1 or 2 small niches. It will never pay off for me to spend what it takes to advertise here and other places. There just isn't enough bang. My only alternative is the grass roots helping out here and there method. I always have done that and have never been labeled a spammer i don't think.

I suspect that there are a ton of solo girl sites that are in the same boat as me also. Probably even more so.

Anyways it seems that I am starting to piss people off here. Sorry for that. We talk about business models in all areas of adult here, the good the bad, what the effects and outcomes are.

I guess talking about a Webmaster Forums business model is a big no no!

Another lesson learned.

Cheers,
BV

...[/quote]Can you please provide me with one example of anyplace in the real world of buying & selling ad space - not just message boards & not just adult - is different?

And, did you miss my post about the stats I publish? Did you see that sticky thread on top that shows the stats of 29 CCBill programs that are considered small?

I want to know what brought this about. What board did you want free advertising on that told you to get bent?

It's not just the webmaster forum business model - it's THE BUSINESS MODEL OF EVERY COMPANY ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH THAT SELLS AD SPACE.

Why should our model be different?

(ps - if you brought this up to drum up business for your program, my hat is off to you :D)

I haven't asked you to change your business model have I?
We're just talking about the model and it's pluses and minuses.

You're stats pages are an excellent tool for webmasters. In fact I love looking at that kind of info, even more so if I was an affiliate. I have always said that in past posts here as well.

Sorry if I miss commenting on everything, there is a lot to comment on.

I want to know what brought this about. What board did you want free advertising on that told you to get bent?[/quote]

No other board told me to get bent. I don't ask for free shit. I pay my way on everything I do. If I can't afford it, I don't buy it.

If you don't believe me it will be pretty easy to verify as I only read and actively post only on 2 boards. This one and The other one.

If you really want to know what brought this about; I woke up yesterday and had a vision of your panties all in a wad and it really turned me on. So I said to myself what can I do to really piss off GreenGuy. The rest is history. |loony|

edit: and if it's any consequence, that other board, I can post an announcement thread pretty much any time I want in the main forum. I definitely have more posts there and answer many more questions than here, but it's a much faster moving board with many more posts, so that's understandable.

I would probably post more here but I am sort of anal about clicking through all the sub forums and I just have the main forum bookmarked on my desktop and usually enter right into the main forum and see what's new.

I noticed you didnt answer my question.
So now Ill ask you a few more.

1. If you werent trolling for a free or discounted ad then why even bring it up?

If I posted enough to be considered a regular on this board I would be insulted that youd think that the users of this forum arent intelligent enough to figure out which sponsors are the best.

After 10 years Id figure you know that advertising on a business forum isnt an accurate measure of "best".... I humbly gauge the amount on the checks as my means.

2. What does the average webmaster earn a month with your program?

Sorry Gonzo,

I answered your first question in my other replies even though I did not directly quote you. Your first question was:

Use the FOX news example. It's a pretty good analogy.


I brought this up because I felt like it. Is it not a valid question? If it's not then delete the thread. Can we not discuss the affect of message boards on our industry?

I realise now it may be a bit controversial if you own and operate a forum, but do we not also talk about LinkLists, TGP's and Tube Sites and other businesses in Adult? and their affects on us?

Not everyone here has 10 years under their belt. There are webmasters of all kinds here. Do you think that everyone that watches FOX news can figure out that FOX has an agenda? A suspect alot don't.

As far as what my "average webmaster" makes. I guess that depends on what "average" is. Last month |greenguy| sent me 401 unique hits to BVCash. 182 of them went to BikiniVoyeur and he made 1 sale.

So can you see how my sites are very micro niche? Can you see how there are not huge traffic numbers in this niche?

I used to always be in Hoes.com top sponsor list (which was very cool for a little nobody like me) Props to Marc. I got many affiliates from that exposure for the year or so I was in the top 10. (as high as 3rd)http://www.hoes.com/sponsors/june2006.html

The sad part is that he no longer reports sites on that list unless he sends a minimum of 15,000 hits a month to them. So I am no longer listed |cry|
But he still sends me sales and I am grateful for that.

My strength is in numbers. Very few affiliates are going to make a living off this niche. It's just something to throw into their mix.

So that is where your theory is flawed: Your BVCash check will always be one of your smallest checks. You see what I mean?

Nice try though.

I hope I answered your questions in an adequate fashion.

Cheers,
BV

PS: If anyone else reading has any other questions in this thread that they feel were unanswered please point them out.

If there are no more questions then go ahead and DELETE THIS THREAD IF YOU SEE FIT GreenGuy!!!

I do not want to be accused of being a troll or a freeloader anymore. |bullshit|

We don't delete threads...THAT would be censorship.

And I never said anything about you saying we should change our business model. I asked why you think that the business model of adult webmaster boards should be different than any other business model that sells ad space?

I asked you since you were making the stink not Fox news.

If you werent trolling for some cheap ads maybe you have a litle resource envy then?

I think its a pretty lame question to ask on a free forum from 2 gents that have been around a long time and have helped out a number of us over the years [I registered my first domain in '93] and asked for nothing in return.

Im sorry you think my logic is flawed. Id be willing to bet that many of us feel that the best sponsors are the ones that send the largest checks. I can read Green Guys stats for myself. Hes posted them for years. I asked you what does your average webmaster make... I guess you are unwilling to answer that. So sad.

I wasnt trying for anything though. See Im not much for porn conspiracies or the man keeping fat fucking nobodies down.

Maybe Ive gotten sensative but I thought it was pretty rude to come into this free forum and ask questions that looked like they were made to put Mark and Jim in a bad light. I consider them to be some of the few HONEST people in this business with some integrity left.

If you dont want to look like a troll or a freeloader then maybe you shouldnt act like one.

Im sorry this thread isnt getting you the kind of response that maybe you hoped for but Im sure everyone appreciates the schooling on how a perfect webmaster forum shoud be ran.

Not all business models that sell add space are the same. Take Google for example. Their top add spots display right there next to whomever is able to rank high. No restrictions.

I'm sure there is room for improvement on anything. Nothing stays the same. We all evolve, up or down.

Here is just one scenario. (not saying it's the best option but it's another option)

Let's pretend for a moment that there were no paid adds at all here. The only adds here were your sponsors you use and they were given the same privileges as your current paid add sponsors. The only way you were paid was through your webmaster referrals.

What do you think your readers would think if they came here knowing that every add here was specifically endorsed by you rather than just selling adds to anyone that can afford to pay the toll?

That's just one scenario.

There could be many scenarios that might or might not be better, just depends better for whom.

It was brought to my attention just last night that PK started a new board. One of the neatest features was that thread starters had an option of displaying a top banner add at the top of each thread they started.

I thought that this was a cool feature and that might stimulate more threads. Of course there still has to be rules. But it has possibilities.

|goodidea or |badidea|

Thanks Gonzo...
If every source of information in the world did not have the same business model, I might have gotten a little offended. :)

Part of the problem seems to be a poor choice of words. Starting with the work "censor". As I said, it doesn't apply. And then Greenie's analogy using "FOX" because of the Superbowl. His beer comparison was good. I didn't see our local brewery in any of the Superbowl commercials but I don't believe they feel slighted or "censored". But instead of using "FOX", he could have used NBC, CBS, BBC, CW or any television network.