What are you going to do about this 2257 shit?
 

The new 2257 regulations go in effect in less than a month. My question is: What are your plans to comply?

Some |potleaf|
Then I'll watch everyone run around in circles.
Then more |potleaf|
Then I'll watch the dust settle.
More |potleaf|
Then I'll think about what I need to do after I've watched what everyone else did.
Then a little more |potleaf|
Then I'll think about what if anything I need to do.
Time for some |potleaf|

I'll watch you. lol

I will be borrowing Urb's foil helmet for the duration |shocking|

DD

What if the person they come down on is you?

What if a meteorite hits me in the head?

Seeing as the new rules are all but impossible to completely comply with subject to how they are interpreted I don't see any reason to change how I have been complying.

If I should have the bad luck to be the victim of our religious right wing zealots on their witch hunt I don't see any benefit to have tried to comply more then I always have.

I'm only an imperfect being living in an imperfect world who keeps imperfect records. Knowing this I take comfort in the fact that no matter how hard I might try I would never be able to live up to the angelic perfection of these religious right wing zealot's values.

Well said Cleo |shake|

Try that speech on a jury - the judge might go easier on you.|bananna|

Where did you get your legal training?

Where do you practice if you have any?

So Jay since you seem to be loved by those who wear blue about as much as they love me what are you planing on doing?

Well maybe I'm interpreting things incorrectly but from what I saw, anything PRIOR to the magic date is grandfathered unless you have to update that models file for any reason. If I update ANY info on a model then I must make that models records compliant (which basically means I purchased more of their content or shot them again in which case I'll easily be able to get the info).

The only tedious part that I see from my sites perspective is that when I update a models records I now need to provide a URL in her records to every place on my sites where her explicit pictures exist. Hopefully I'm interpreting the exact url thing incorrectly and only need to provide a base url but hopefully that will become clearer. While this is tedious, time consuming and a royal pain in the ass..... it's far from impossible. The ones that will get hit hard on this one are the folks who produce and sell content. It will be nearly impossible for them to keep track of the all the URL's since it's doubtful that the purchaser will report back every gallery, free site, banner, etc that they use it on.

Keeping track of all the models stage names is going to be difficult as well. If I shoot a model today and she's using Casey and someone else shoots her a 4 months from now and she calls herself something else, or she moves away and gets married there's no way to know that information. Hell I've had models I shot one week and when I called them back for another shoot the next week they had moved and were unreachable! I plan to be as up to date with this as possible but I'm not going to worry about it. If my records are as straight as they can be, I'm not going to fret about now knowing that some model got married and didn't tell me, can't worry about things I can't do anything about.

I'm in a wait and see mode and not sweating it and not doing sqwat.

I only shoot soft core
The girls I photograph are all card carrying Mexican Sex workers working in Brothels, The Brothel Owners aren't going to risk prison for employing girls under 18

If I feel forced to comply I'm giveing my Whore sites to my favorite hooker and going to work for her. (I did it with my Escort site)

All the girls will give you a quick glimpse at there sex worker cards but there is no way in hell I'm going to get them all to let me photograph there ID's
because there are two things you can bank on when it comes to Mexican Whores,
1, there using a fake name
2, there lieing about there age

TJPat...that is scary because we have run into alot of girls over there who are 14+ and will do anything and tell you anything to earn money.

My records are about the best I can hope for. I have my forms in order and that is about the best I can do. If they come to me and want to start something then fine, I'll deal with it then. I can't run around screaming, it won't help. If you keep good records like you are supposed to then you shouldn't have to worry. If most of your content is from KaZaa and newsgroups then you are fucked and should be shut down.

My two bits!

TP: Basically, your content is not 2257 compliant at all. Being based in San diego, it applies to you - as soon as you take a picture of the girl full nude, you need 2257.

How do you know the girls are 18? You have no proof - if Assclown or one of his merry band ask you, you won't have it.

That is NOT a good way to do business.

Alex

I agree with that.

Oh yeah,giving the business to one of the girls after the feds show up doesn't get you out of the KP charges.

Alex

LOL - yes they do, yes they do. :)

I still haven't decided 100%. I have been talking to lawyers a good bit and researching. I just hired the lawyer who got Max Hardcore off the hook and am meeting with him 8/9. I would rather be more proactive than reactive about this becasue I am probably a good target for them. How do you think they are finding all of this free xxx and porn?

http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...oe=UTF-8&q=xxx

I started this thread to see where everybody stood on this thing.

I don't pretend to be a lawyer or an expert, but if you print out 28 CFR part 75, 18 USC 2257, 18 USC 2256, and the proposed changes and sit down at desk with a highlighting pen you have a good chance of getting a pretty good idea about what is already law, and the changes that will take effect 60 days after the final draft of the changes is published.

Here are a two points that seem important to me when I look at the regs:

This law already applies to any "visual depictions made after November 1, 1990 of actual sexually explicit conduct"

Mere nudity is exempt. The only content that is subject to 2257 is "''actual sexually explicit conduct'' (but not simulated conduct) as defined in subparagraphs (A) through (D) of paragraph (2) of section 2256:

(A) sexual intercourse, including genital-genital, oral-genital, anal-genital, or oral-anal, whether between persons of the same or opposite sex;

(B) bestiality;

(C) masturbation;

(D) sadistic or masochistic abuse;


As has been mentioned before, the big changes are that adult webmasters will be considered to be "secondary producers", fewer forms of ID will be permited, and they have clarified where the notice regarding a custodian of records must be placed on websites.

I am not currently interested in acting as a custodian of records, so I'll stick to using only exempt content if the changes go through as-is.

It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out. Once the dust settles it will be easier to make plans going forward rather than dealing with all of this uncertainty.

I'm thinking of moving to the US so that I can feel your pain.

Ironic that the nation which spawned internet porn should now be facing controls which threaten to remove it from the arena.

Of course it will never happen ...

Just about all the content that I have I've bought from the larger content suppliers and I keep good records both for this and for taxes and all the other fun bits of paper that we are required by our government to keep.

Now if I was TijuanaPat I would be worried, but I would have been worried even before this.

We can all run around crying the sky is falling. I doubt that will solve anything. This thing will be sorted out in the courts, not here on the boards.

If you think these things will harm your way of doing bossiness get out. Go flip burgers, pump gas, pluck chickens. Those are all safe occupations If this is not what you want why rant and rave?

I do not presume to tell anyone how they should operate. If someone wants my opinion I give it. There are ulterior motives at play with all the alarmist reactions. I have no hidden agenda. I operate out in the open.

Pat has the right to his opinions like any of us. He's an adult and is aware of the consequences of his actions. Don't treat him like he's feeble minded.

Airdick, I got bad news for you, please look up the definition of sexually explicit conduct:

E is the important one. Basically, if you can see the pink, it's sexual. Unless you are taking softcore images where the model doesn't show the coochie, doesn't touch her breasts, and doesn't similuate any sexual conduct, you are no exempt.

Girl sitting FULLY clothed simiulating masturbation needs the 2257 documentation.

A girl lying nude on a bed with her legs spread requires 2257 documentation.

Basically, if you are using it for promotion of adult materials, if you even suggest sex at any time in your website or other materials, you better have 2257 documentation.

There is no clear way to sneak out of it.

Alex

Since I have no way of complying - all of the sponsors banners will need documentation if they fit those categories - I will continue doing what was already required, although I always have had the required documentation for any content I bought and used. I don't see a single sponsor running around worrying about how they are going to cover all of the free hosted galleries, free content or their promo material and I think they would be a much bigger target than any of us small WMs that just do free sites and LLs/TGPs. I also don't see the gov't going after us small fry, when for many years they haven't gone after one primary producer for documentation of 2257. As far as I am concerned, right now it is being hyped by the people that are going to try and profit from the paranoia - till a test case happens, I won't worry - and if I happen to end up being a test case, there's not much I can do about it - there are a lot of other things on the books they could already hit us for if they really wanted to.
In the meantime, Im sure the people that stand to gain the most "money" will keep up the ranting and fear mongering till they've made their bucks.

Well I'm doing something about it right now.
|potleaf| |potleaf| |potleaf| |potleaf| |potleaf| |potleaf|

Linkster, so far with the exception of a very few, most of the people bringing up the subject are trying to sell tracking software or DRM type arrangements for content. There has been a ton of "the sky is falling" stuff.

Personally, I think the new "rule clarifications" are not that, but in fact new laws and amendments to laws, which, when taken to a court of law, will be thrown out because these new laws were not passed by the house, the senate, and signed by POTUS. While they can calify rules with these adminstrative orders, they cannot create new offences where none previously existed, nor can they create retroactive paperwork requirements for individuals and companies that were previously exempt.

A few will get nailed, but like Acacia, someone will take them to court and things will settle back down.

1 more reason for Americans to vote Bush and his bullies out of office.

Alex

Well said linkster - I am going to print out my 2257 docs. put in a folder and write on it where I bought it from with a email recipt..

And start doing free sites and watch the news when the time rolls around.. And this might go on for years..

And watch where I buy my content from..

Also us LL owners, Suppose we list a site that has bought pics. and the webmaster has 2257 docs. but not actual age proof..
and its a webmaster that is from another country.. We will have to check 2257 docs to be in comply ??

IMHO Adult webmasters should not bring attention on them selfs..

Look down a LLs gay or teen page and see all of the young guy or boy or young girl or young slut or young whore.. Now if I was working for Asscroft I would target those people first..

The way I read it, they left (E) out of 2257 on purpose.

Here is the critical part:

2257
(h)As used in this section -

(1) the term ''actual sexually explicit conduct'' means actual but not simulated conduct as defined in subparagraphs (A) through (D) of paragraph (2) of section 2256 of this title;

You quoted 2256 (2)(A) through (E)
but subparagraph (E) is not included in 2257. It also seems to me that the words "means actual but not simulated conduct" clearly exempt simulated sexual conduct from considertion.

I would assume that they left this out in order to cut some slack for R rated moves, erotic art, mainstream men's magazines, etc.

I have nothing to gain from posting about 2257, I just was wondering how the community felt about this.

Bottom line is: The reg will go into effect on 8/24. Then we have 30 days to comply, so that's 9/24. If on 11/3 Bush loses the election and becomes a lame duck -- Asshat will probably take a few parting shots at the industry before he goes back to losing elections to dead men. Then, maybe, the country will return to some sanity.

Vote Kerry.

I'm sorta glad I'm just starting out if anything comes of the new regulation.

I've been picking up sponsor content last couple days and I'm much more attuned to needing the 2257 information. Then again, some of my first posts here were questions on 2257 and really not many people seemed to care too much.

The bottom line is that no matter what- unless you are the producer you have no way of knowing any document is truly legit. Digital copies can be easily faked in photoshop.

It's not possible to police the Internet.

If they wanted to go after sites, I think it would be the more explicit teen sites, 'drunken girls' sites, voyeur sites, sites with a lot of content based outside the US (but company based in US), and basically the sites that insinuate rape, crap like that.

Maybe content sites themselves will be the first to be scrutinized.

...if at all.

The druken party girl sites are the easiest target IMO.

Was that charge on the guy who did Girls Gone Wild regarding 2257?

IF this does go thru, I have a 3-part plan:

1) as an Australian who hosts in the USA, I will try as much as possible to comply. I will compile my docos and keep them here at my AU business location. I will put up 2257 links on all my domains with my AU address, knowing it will be impossible to verify my compliance and therefore hoping they will not be able to shut down my sites.

2) as a webmaster running my hunkmoney, I will supply non-sexually explicit banners to my US affiliates.

3) as a webhost, I will have (non-us) offshore servers available so I can give any chilihost clients the ability to quickly move their hosting offshore IF they need to, with no interruption in the high quality service they are used to.

IMHO, all webmasters, webhosts and affiliate programs should have a plan in place, but I will not miss the competition of those that don't ;)


cheers,
Luke

Look at the thousands of sites out there that are not compliant with existing 2257 laws. Is anyone chasing them down? No. Why? Because there aren't any little red flags popping up. The DOJ isn't going to just start doing random audits of adult webmasters' records. If you have a site with obvious red flags (questionable content), you are up shit creek anyway. Bottom line - you will have to give the authorities damn good reason to break in your door and demand all of your records. We still live in a country where they must have probable cause to pursue us. They aren't going to chase their tails going after link lists and TGPs either. If they actually decide to enforce the new laws (which would be surprising), they are going to go after the content producers who provide us with the tasty porn in the first place.

I'm not telling anyone to use their 2257 docs as rolling papers. Just saying to use some common sense. Stay laid back and groovy. I'll get nervous when Cleo looks nervous.

Jay - didnt mean to sound like I was intimating that you had anything to gain :) I know that you don't

The other point that I kinda left out in that last post - it would be cutting off their nose to spite their face if they did come after the LL and TGP types - knowing that at this board we are a gathering of the biggest LL and TGP owners stopping by all of the time, we are also the most significant tool that the Justice Dept has for fighting the thing they are trying to curb with these Regs - I know for a fact that we have helped the FBI on many occassions tracking down CP purveyors and without our reports they would have a much harder job, as well as the financial and vocal support that we give the ASACP to do its work in trying to rid the world of the junk that this regulation is designed as a investigative tool for - not smart biz to take away your biggest source of information in the fight against CP

And I still have no inkling of any sponsor that is doing anything out of the ordinary for their content and I really don't expect to see 80,000 FHG's get pulled the day that this becomes active. I also don't see anyone reacting to the banner question - sure they have always provided non-explicit banners - thats just good biz - but they sure haven't provided me any 2257 paperwork to have on file very time I put up a banner on my LL or a free site :)

Just one point to consider...

Larry Flynt has built an empire on porn. He has demonstrated that he will not shrink in the face of the court system regarding diminishing his empire. He is not afraid of speaking his mind.

If you are still with me...how many press interviews have you seen him complaining about how unfair or illegal this issue is?

My opinion is that he has already spoken with his attorneys who are experts in this area and they have explained to him this is a non issue that they can beat it any time he chooses. With that in mine he has kept quiet so they don't get any more publicity than they are already receiving.

I retained Max Hardcore's lawyer. If he can get that dude off the hook -- I should be no problem.

Surfn, Larry's company was also a VERY early signature to Acacia. In all fairness, his legal advise is also hinged on "dollar risk factors" - the costs of doing X compared to Y.

Most of us are looking straight at "do I do time in a federal butt slamming prison".

Jay, you make it sound like you feel you are going to get the knock on the door tomorrow. Do you have any insight the rest of us don't?

Alex

I've given a couple of my personal opinions. Not legal advice. I have no more to say on this matter publicly. ;)

What's this new law coming into effect? |jackinthe

I'm in a wait and see mode. I'll be sure to have 2257 records in place for what I have. For example, what about the thousands of sponsor content images I've used? How do I get records for that? I don't and I believe I only need to be complaint after the date so those should be fine right?

I think there might be some targets but it isn't going to be someone outside of the US at first, that's for sure so I'm safe...for now. If they come after me I'll move up north and built a nice two story igloo. |rasta|

No, I have no reason to think that, other than becasue I am easily found on the serch engines - that might make me an especially attractive target. I've had my share of legal problems in the past and would prefer to not have any more.

I've thought of that myself - list "your place of business" as the furthest spot away from airports, cities, and out in the sticks as possible. I doubt the G-men will be wanting to drive way the fuck out there.

That's a big part of the reason I feel so secure. You guys living in the big cities will be the first to go. I'll have plenty of warning.

Not that I expect this even to be test cased.

This is targeted towards the cp and nonude and model site guys. I don't see it as an attack on hardcore in general.

Altho it's designed to be a big gun threatening everyone, I agree with that.

Place of Business:

Somewhere in Alaska or:

http://geography.about.com/library/weekly/aa102700a.htm

:D