Speaking of ethics...

[emmanuelle]

I am thrilled with the news of Chi Chi La Rue leaving Vivid over their switch to a condom-optional policy.

It's heartening to watch someone not only take a stand, but prepared to walk away in support of such stand.

There sure isn't much integrity that's obvious in this industry, I hope that this is the start of more people standing their ground about what's right.

[docholly]

yes it is nice to see that.. quietly taking a stand. we posted a notice on the inside of the our site: "my pussy is very exclusive, no one gets in without a jacket" (Chuckster's idea)

i would think clean bill of health is not an option.

[Cleo]

I always cringe when I see porn done with no condoms.

[Useless]

Though I am not famed for my own use of condoms, it seems insane to me that people still produce porn without them. When you are exchanging fluids with that many different people during your career, why would you even risk it? Maybe I missed the news release announcing the cure for herpes and HIV... (I don't mind the ones that are nuked by taking a pill once a day for ten day.)

[Cleo]

Ass to the mouth is my favorite

[YNOTBob]

ummm...

what makes condom only the *right* option?

[emmanuelle]

My point is that it felt 'right' to her (and to most of us who actually give a shit about our talent) and that she was prepared to walk away from a lucrative deal rather than compromise her own sense of right & wrong. Most talk a big game, but when push comes to shove, all too often it's easier to put profits over ethics.

[ecchi]

Originally Posted by YNOTBob

what makes condom only the *right* option?

It's not, but it is the "sensible" option. I know performers who are quite happy working without one, but that is there choice. If someone does not feel safe working without them (and it isn't safe) then they should either find producers who are happy to work with performers using condoms (and there are a few), or get out of the business.

However, although I support Chi Chi La Rue decision to leave Vivid because she does not like their "condom-optional" policy, I also feel that Vivid (or any producer) has a right to adopt a "condom-optional" policy if they like, or even a "no condom" policy. After all, there are plenty of performers who are happy to work without them (and a few who prefer to work without them) and there a few producers who have a "condom only" policy that people like Chi Chi La Rue can work for.

In other words, I don't see Chi Chi La Rue's leaving Vivid as an example of ethics, just a personal choice on her part not to accept high risk employment.

[YNOTBob]

I agree she stuck to her guns, but the thread is about ethics as well...

just wondering who set the rule that sex without a condom is unethical?

[emmanuelle]

Let's not be pedantic. She was following her own personal ethics, nobody was saying that condom use in itself is ethical.

Perhaps the better choice of word would have been 'integrity'.

[ecchi]

I don't think it is important but: Both "ethics" and "integrity" imply that it is wrong not to do this thing, so I object to their use. By using them you are implying that it is wrong not to wear a condom if you are in a sex film. IMHO everyone has the right to do what they like provided it does not harm others (and before you make the obvious reply, EVERYONE in the movie will have made a decision on wearing/not wearing a condom for themselves). Lots of people risk their lives to make money, racing drivers, circus performers, soldiers, to name but a few. I would not do any of those jobs. But that is my CHOICE. It is not an "ethical" decision, and not a sign of my personal "integrity", it is because I simply choose not to risk my life for money. The same is true of people in the sex industry, they can choose to risk their lives in no condom porn movies or they can choose to take the safer route.

[Far-L]

I think there is a more interesting philosophical point to be made about the ethics of someone that would not allow other adults to make a choice for themselves...

[virgohippy]

It's a question of whether or not external pressures become a reason to compromise on one's own personal values and beliefs.

Ethics and Integrity have never been about specific, individual actions. These things are all relative, depending on the circumstance, and the individual. Rather, it's about how well someone adheres to their own personal sense of "right and wrong."

But if that person has a very odd sense of "right and wrong" when compared to everyone else? I dunno. |badidea|

Personally, the thought of sex with anyone without using a condom (or some other similar form of protection) outside of a committed relationship makes me cringe. Watching it in porn has the same effect.

Just my opinion.

[Far-L]

Can anyone here name one porn star besides John Holmes who in the last 25 years died of AIDS? (and who also wasn't an iv drug user like Holmes)

[ecchi]

Can anyone here name one porn star besides John Holmes who in the last 25 years died of AIDS? (and who also wasn't an iv drug user like Holmes)

Where you been? You missed an almost total close down of the porn industry recently because of performers with aids. However usually people don't admit to it. For example one of England's biggest porn stars retired from the business a while back. I was speaking to someone who knew him, and apparently his "retirement" was simply to avoid admitting he was HIV+.

It's a question of whether or not external pressures become a reason to compromise on one's own personal values and beliefs.

I doubt if Chi Chi La Rue is doing this because of her own "own personal values and beliefs" I think she did it to save her life !

Ethics and Integrity have never been about specific, individual actions. These things are all relative, depending on the circumstance, and the individual. Rather, it's about how well someone adheres to their own personal sense of "right and wrong."

But to have a "personal sense of right and wrong" means you believe a thing is either right or wrong. And even if you are careful never to tell people they are "wrong", it is still in your mind that people who do otherwise are "wrong". So you are judging people, thus imposing your sense of right and wrong on them.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by ecchi

Where you been? You missed an almost total close down of the porn industry recently because of performers with aids. However usually people don't admit to it. For example one of England's biggest porn stars retired from the business a while back. I was speaking to someone who knew him, and apparently his "retirement" was simply to avoid admitting he was HIV+.

I doubt if Chi Chi La Rue is doing this because of her own "own personal values and beliefs" I think she did it to save her life !

But to have a "personal sense of right and wrong" means you believe a thing is either right or wrong. And even if you are careful never to tell people they are "wrong", it is still in your mind that people who do otherwise are "wrong". So you are judging people, thus imposing your sense of right and wrong on them.

I have been in the industry quite a while. Name them.

A positive HIV test is not the same thing as AIDS - in fact - there are tons of factors for FALSE POSITIVES. Many of the so called scares also turned out to be based on false positives, like Barbara Doll for example who was one of the first "performers with AIDS" that turned out to be just fine.

I am not going to wait - the question was rhetorical. I already know good and well how short the list is. And Sharon Mitchell would tell you the same - the bigger concerns are the other stds that rage around the porn valley sets.

[ecchi]

In the case of the English guy, it was told to me in confidence, so I won't name him.

In the case of the Americans, I cannot remember names, but it was big news, even the UK mainstream papers covered it. It was also talked about on a lot of the boards.

But anyway that is not the point. Are you really suggesting that having lots of sex without using a condom does not mean that you have a high risk of catching aids?

[Trev]

Originally Posted by ecchi

I doubt if Chi Chi La Rue is doing this because of her own "own personal values and beliefs" I think she did it to save her life !

Save her life? I believe she's only a director, not a performer, but I could be wrong.

http://xbiz.com/news_piece.php?id=13242

“I am a huge condom advocate,” LaRue told XBiz. “I’m such a vocal person about my feelings about condom usage. That’s one of the reasons I went to Vivid in first place; because they required condoms for their performers.”

Reading this article, I would have to agree that this was about her own personal ethics and integrity.

[Cleo]

Originally Posted by Trev

Save her life? I believe she's only a director, not a performer, but I could be wrong.

I do remember seeing him in a movie, out of drag, covered in food having sex, if you could call it that, with a big fat woman, oops I mean a BBW, who was also covered in food.

The movie really got me hot.

[Ms Naughty]

You could look at this in terms of what example porn sets to the viewer. Obviously a safe sex message is a good message to give.

Of course... going down the path of "what messages does porn give the viewer" is a whole other barrell of ethical worms

[virgohippy]

Originally Posted by ecchi

But to have a "personal sense of right and wrong" means you believe a thing is either right or wrong. And even if you are careful never to tell people they are "wrong", it is still in your mind that people who do otherwise are "wrong". So you are judging people, thus imposing your sense of right and wrong on them.

I disagree. I find a difference between having a personal sense of morality, and imposing that morality on others. Yes, as a rational thinking adult with clearly defined moral values I make judgements. I decide with whom I associate and do business - I also choose the specific means in which I do these things. BUT, just because I have my own sense of values doesn't mean I won't allow other rational, thinking adults to make their own judgements.

I think Far-L was touching on this earlier:

Originally Posted by Far-L

I think there is a more interesting philosophical point to be made about the ethics of someone that would not allow other adults to make a choice for themselves...

[ecchi]

Originally Posted by Trev

Save her life? I believe she's only a director, not a performer, but I could be wrong.

Sorry, I was confusing Chi Chi La Rue with someone else. I don't watch a lot of porn movies.

Originally Posted by Trev

I find a difference between having a personal sense of morality, and imposing that morality on others.

I was not talking about "imposing" it, I was talking about the way it makes you think of other people. For example, I don't smoke, but I have no problem with people who do. In fact a bit over ten years ago I was studying in a place where smoking was banned, and there was a lobby to get a "smoking room" in the building (this was adult education, most people on the course were 30-60, no kids or teens). I was one of the main movers in this lobby, and on several occasions took the matter up with the course organisers. However my personal "ethic" is I don't smoke, and although I never say so, I think people who do are fools.

Also on "imposing that morality on others", look at the point I was answering above. As Chi Chi La Rue is more of a director than an actor, then they are not just showing "personal ethics". As a director Chi Chi La Rue is attempting to force others to wear condoms (the performers). This is most defiantly not "allowing other rational, thinking adults to make their own judgements", it is saying "this is how I feel, and you MUST do the same". In other words, the quote you make from Far-L's post applies to Chi Chi La Rue ("I think there is a more interesting philosophical point to be made about the ethics of someone that would not allow other adults to make a choice for themselves...").

[GenXer]

Whatever her reasoning, she is right. condoms should be worn during porn shoots always

[ecchi]

Originally Posted by GenXer

Whatever her reasoning, she is right. condoms should be worn during porn shoots always

No, condoms should be worn when both parties want them worn. Saying that they should be worn by those who do not want to wear them is as bad as saying that they should not be worn by people who want to. Either way you are imposing your views on other people.

[emmanuelle]

Originally Posted by ecchi

Also on "imposing that morality on others", look at the point I was answering above. As Chi Chi La Rue is more of a director than an actor, then they are not just showing "personal ethics". As a director Chi Chi La Rue is attempting to force others to wear condoms (the performers). This is most defiantly not "allowing other rational, thinking adults to make their own judgements", it is saying "this is how I feel, and you MUST do the same". In other words, the quote you make from Far-L's post applies to Chi Chi La Rue ("I think there is a more interesting philosophical point to be made about the ethics of someone that would not allow other adults to make a choice for themselves...").

Er... I do not see the situation as 'forcing' people to bend to her will. She chose to walk away from a situation where Vivid would 'force' her to compromise her own code of ethics and personal integrity.