Why buy a MacBook Pro 15" instead of a MacBook Air?

[Simon]

moderators - I'm posting this in the business discussion forum because it seems like a 'business tools' kind of question, but feel free to delete this sentence and move it to chit chat if you think it belongs there (or just delete this and leave it here (or just ignore this completely)).

Thread Note: No need to suggest any non-Mac alternatives in this thread. I've used Macs for 24 years and their notebooks since they've had them (before actually, since I had an SE30-based Dynamac too). This is just to discuss the pros and cons of two potential Mac notebook purchases.

Okay, here's the setup...

I've used a nice little 12" PowerBook G4 for a couple of years and I'm thinking about finally gettting a newer notebook. I'm considering either a new 15" MacBook Pro or the 13" MacBook Air.

So I'm looking for reasons why you Mac owners and users (and those who are thinking of making the move) would choose the MacBook Pro 15" model over the 13.3" MacBook Air.

Personally, one of the factors for me is the weight of the notebook. I've been spoiled by the 4.6 pound 12" that I've been using. The MacBook Pro is 5.5 pounds so that would mean an extra pound on my lap and to carry around, plus it's several inches larger overall. The MacBook Air is only 3 pounds, so that would be over a pound and a half lighter at almost the same form factor (but thinner).

So...I need reasons NOT to buy the MacBook Air. Although I'm open to hearing reasons besides weight to reinforce my irrational leaning towards the Air too.

Who wants to go first?



(yes, for those who remember, the $7K Dynamac 'portable' was 18 pounds)

[Cleo]

The MacBook Air and the new Macbook don't have Firewire which is a deal killer for me.

The new 15" Macbook Pro seems decent although I have reservations about the new DisplayPort or whatever it's called.

[Useless]

Originally Posted by Simon

(yes, for those who remember, the $7K Dynamac 'portable' was 18 pounds)

At $7K, did it come with a personal assistant to haul that brick around for you?

[LD]

Originally Posted by Simon

I've used Macs for 24 years and their notebooks since they've had them (before actually, since I had an SE30-based Dynamac too).

I have a Lisa...

[Tekster]

Firewire ports would be the only reason I would go to a MacBook Pro, but looking at their specs it looks like they have the Firewire 800 only, or am I seeing things?

[bDok]

Originally Posted by Tekster

Firewire ports would be the only reason I would go to a MacBook Pro, but looking at their specs it looks like they have the Firewire 800 only, or am I seeing things?

yea the macbook pro only has firewire 800.

The firewire situation with the new refresh of the notebooks has me frustrated.

For now I don't have to worry because I still have a black macbook that does what I need it to do. My daily machine is a mac pro which has been such a nice upgrade from the g4 I was using before.

I am drooling over the new monitors though. That will have to wait though. Have a bunch of other stuff I need purchase before a new monitor really becomes something I can get.

[Cleo]

Firewire 800 only but for a couple of bucks you can get a 800 to 400 adapter since it is backwards compatible. Still it sucks that it only has one Firewire port.

I can't even begin to imagine WTF is up with Apple and Firewire these days since they seem to be trying to kill it.

My new 3G iPhone will no longer work with Firewire at all, it wont even charge from a Firewire port so if I want it to charge while plugged into my expensive Alpine car stereo system I would need to get an adapter.

[cd34]

What is more important to you?

The Air uses a slower cpu but gives longer life when not plugged in. I'm not sure if that is a real dealbreaker if you're doing email, browsing, etc. Video rendering/Photoshop would take more time on the Air.

The Air also has a slower hard drive, so, if you're doing things that shuffle files, you'll be happier with the Pro. The Air also has a 120gb/128gb maximum drive size.

Larger screen, higher resolution, faster video card on the Pro.

Do you use a CD/DVD on your notebook? Air requires an external one.

If you need Firewire or built in Ethernet, you have only one choice. The Air uses a USB Ethernet adaptor. And, if you need more than one USB port, the Pro is the only choice.

The Air is a great machine to use for remote work when you have a primary machine. The Pro is a great machine to use as a primary machine.

[Cleo]

The newer Macbooks have a few things that I'm still on the fence about.

The new buttonless trackpad takes a bit of getting use to and I haven't used it enough to decide if it is progress or a step backwards due to Mr. Job's apparent button aversion. It's multi touch which is nice and more and more programs are now supporting multi touch.
(anyone remember the dreadful round mouse?)

The Glossy Screen only option didn't work too well when I was at the Apple store due to the overhead lights reflecting in it and making it hard to see. You can buy non glare films to put over the glass so this may be a none issue.

The new DisplayPort is on paper a step forward over the older DVI port but Apple has come out with their own connector that no one else in the entire world is using and there are limited adapter choices if you want to use anything but the new 24" Apple display. Also it no longer carries an analog signal so you will have to buy a breakout box converter if you need to hook it to something like a SVideo projector or something.

The new black backlit keys are much easier to see then the old silver keys.

[Cleo]

In addition to what Chris posted another reason to go with the Macbookpro over the Air is it has an ExpressCard/34 slot so you could add more FireWire ports or whatever.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Cleo

The MacBook Air and the new Macbook don't have Firewire which is a deal killer for me. The new 15" Macbook Pro seems decent although I have reservations about the new DisplayPort or whatever it's called.

I might be able to live without Firewire on the Air as long as I had other Macs with Firewire ports. But that's one of the big ones for sure. I haven't heard about the new DisplayPort (or whatever it's called)...was there some problem about that?

Originally Posted by Useless Warrior

At $7K, did it come with a personal assistant to haul that brick around for you?

It really should have. The damn thing only went from a desk at home to a desk in my office most of the time. Good news though is that year I had a very hot Brazilian secretary who never let me carry anything--she thought it reflected badly on her. I tried to call her a 'personal assistant' but she told me she thought 'secretary' sounded sexier so, well, you know.

Originally Posted by LusciousDelight

I have a Lisa...

I almost had a Lisa (actually I've had several Lisas but that's for another discussion perhaps) but I kept waiting and then, one day in 1984, the wait was over.

Originally Posted by Cleo

Still it sucks that it only has one Firewire port. I can't even begin to imagine WTF is up with Apple and Firewire these days since they seem to be trying to kill it.

I know what you mean. With one Firewire 800 port and daisy-chaining other devices, the slowest device on the chain sets the speed. I have two USB ports but only one Firewire port on the 12" now, so I could live with just the one, but Apple's recent moves away from Firewire on notebooks is strange.

I've put off upgrading so long now that these trade-offs really suck, particularly since when my little 12" isn't on my lap it's plugged into an external monitor and Bluetooth keyboard and mouse, along with three Firewire drives (only 1 of which has a USB port).

If that damn 3 pound PowerBook Air had just the one Firewire port I wouldn't hesitate.

That 15" MacBook Pro seems to be what I should want.

So why do I still want the Air?

[cd34]

I used the multitouch trackpad and keyboard at the apple store for about 20 minutes one day. Since I use the touchpad all the time rather than an external mouse, and I am used to the double click or drag on the trackpad, I didn't find the new trackpad difficult to get used to. I had to be more attentive and not rest my thumb on the trackpad since it is now completely usable as a trackpad. Getting used to command-click for a right click was more trouble than getting used to the trackpad click. I still doubletap the trackpad and click-drag quite a bit.

[xxxjay]

I have a MacbookAir...It was the only computer I used for almost 6 months. The only thing that is a bit of a drag is the one usb situation. You can get an adapter to use more than one USB device...so it's not that big of a deal.

I LOVE the Macbook Air.

[asianslave]

I would go for the Pro myself:

larger monitor and you can plug it into a decent sized external display
faster cpu, more ram and bigger HD - 120GB is a bit small once you start loading it with media. I hate waiting around for that fucking spinning beach ball of doom.
more USB ports (no ethernet port wtf?!?) - some hardware I have doesn't work so well with a usb dock

sounds like you have your heart set on the air though

[Simon]

Nice to see lots of points being made in this thread. I really wish I could justify getting the Air, but it just doesn't seem to be enough of what I want to have right now. If I traveled more I might go with the Air and a second home machine, but mostly I use the convenience of a notebook to work in half a dozen places around the house without ever need to sync things between two machines.

So it looks like the 15" MacBook Pro is the way to go, since as cd34 mentioned, it will wind up being my primary machine. I've wanted to try that new trackpad and the gestures, but the nearest Apple Store is 120 miles away.

Now I need to figure out which of my useful applications will need an upgrade to run on the Intel hardware. And then I'll know how much the notebook upgrade will really cost.

Let's see... Photoshop 7.0 from 2002 probably won't work. Used to be easy to just buy Photoshop but now it seems like it's being packaged with a variety of other Adobe apps I've never used. I use Photoshop and ImageReady (a lot). I understand ImageReady is gone now, so what's the closest combo to those two without a lot of the other fluff?

Oh, and how about the new backup system, Time Machine? Would it be smart to get a new hard drive dedicated to use only by Time Machine? From what I read it seems the larger a hard drive it has to backup onto, the further back in time it can go. So, is there some multiple of the size of the notebook's hard drive that's needed to really make Time Machine useful?

I'm sure I'll think of another question or two later, but feel free to jump in early if you want.

[Cleo]

Originally Posted by Simon

Let's see... Photoshop 7.0 from 2002 probably won't work. Used to be easy to just buy Photoshop but now it seems like it's being packaged with a variety of other Adobe apps I've never used. I use Photoshop and ImageReady (a lot). I understand ImageReady is gone now, so what's the closest combo to those two without a lot of the other fluff?

Oh, and how about the new backup system, Time Machine? Would it be smart to get a new hard drive dedicated to use only by Time Machine? From what I read it seems the larger a hard drive it has to backup onto, the further back in time it can go. So, is there some multiple of the size of the notebook's hard drive that's needed to really make Time Machine useful?

I'm using Photoshop CS3. Yeas ImageReady is gone, I miss it, but Photoshop CS3 does everything I need except open and edit animated GIFS. (it does allow you to make animated GIFS, just doesn't allow you to open existing ones and see all the frames.) Photoshop CS4 is the current version but I haven't used it. I believe upgrades from Version 7 are still $180.

I'm running Time Machine on a few USB hard drives (270 gig & 500 gig) connected to an Airport Extreme. I'm using it to backup 5 Mac laptops (2 are old PowerPC laptops) and one Mac mini. I've learned a few tricks like starting the initial backup through the network, stopping it right away, and then connecting the drive directly to the Mac through the drive's FireWire port and finishing the initial backup in under an hour rather then having the initial backup take over a day through the network. Then putting the drive back on the network and forgetting about it as it does it thing through the air. This setup allows us to go back a few months. I also one in awhile copy the disk images off of the Time Machine drives to a 1TB drive that I keep at a friend's house.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Cleo

Photoshop CS3 does everything I need except open and edit animated GIFS. (it does allow you to make animated GIFS, just doesn't allow you to open existing ones and see all the frames.)

Damn, that's too bad about not being able to edit the frames of existing gif files with Photoshop CS3. I wonder if that's changed in CS4 or if some other program is needed to do that now.

Originally Posted by Cleo

I've learned a few tricks like starting the initial backup through the network, stopping it right away, and then connecting the drive directly to the Mac through the drive's FireWire port and finishing the initial backup in under an hour rather then having the initial backup take over a day through the network. Then putting the drive back on the network and forgetting about it as it does it thing through the air.

That's a great trick and I'll use it. I really like the idea of wireless backups that run automatically and making the initial backup the way you mentioned sounds like a great idea.

Okay... New Question time... I was looking at how to configure the MacBook Pro at the Apple Store online and it seems there are three processor speed choices.

The base model, which seems just fine, runs at 2.4GHz. Then there is a 2.53GHz model which adds $500 to the price but comes with about a 25% larger hard drive that I don't need, and twice the RAM, which is something I'd add to the base model when I order anyway. The 2.8GHz version is only offered as an upgrade on the 2.53GHz model and adds another $300 to it's price.

SO, my question is: what are those small speed increments worth on a notebook computer? I can order the base model with the extra RAM for $150 extra. But I'm wondering if there's any reason to opt for paying more to get what seem to be tiny speed increases that I'm not sure I'd even notice.

Anyone have feedback on those processor speed choices?

Which one would you get?

[Cleo]

Originally Posted by Simon

Damn, that's too bad about not being able to edit the frames of existing gif files with Photoshop CS3. I wonder if that's changed in CS4 or if some other program is needed to do that now.

I keep my old version of ImageReady around for this but Adobe wants you to buy Fireworks. Not sure what the Adobe version of Fireworks is like but I hated the Macromedia version.

On the subject of processor speed.. I can't image noticing that sight increase in speed but more RAM sounds nice. Are Apple's RAM prices still insane? Might want to get your RAM from someplace besides Apple.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Cleo

...more RAM sounds nice. Are Apple's RAM prices still insane? Might want to get your RAM from someplace besides Apple.

The base model comes with 2GB of RAM using two 1GB DDR3 SDRAM chips. Upgrading to 4GB of RAM means replacing both of those chips with 2GB chips. If I order the MacBook Pro with 4GB of RAM it's $150 more than the base price. I'm not sure if that's expensive for two 2GB chips but I haven't bought RAM for awhile.

[Cleo]

Crucial wants $62.99 for a 2 gig chip so I would just go with Apple's deal.
http://www.crucial.com/

[cd34]

I would doubt you would see a real difference in the CPU speeds -- RAM on the other hand, definitely get the upgrade.

The clock speed differences they are talking about would be important if you were running computationally intensive tasks, running folding@home and wanted to max things out and over time, you might produce work 10 minutes faster every day.

I doubt you would see much of a difference in those cpu's for normal daily work.

[Cleo]

I had to Google what folding@home was.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folding@home

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Cleo

I'm running Time Machine on a few USB hard drives (270 gig & 500 gig) connected to an Airport Extreme. I'm using it to backup 5 Mac laptops (2 are old PowerPC laptops) and one Mac mini.

This raised a new question or two for me. (surprise!)

I currently have an old flying saucer style Airport Base Station and an Airport Express. I just realized that while the Express does have a USB port, it's only for connecting a printer but not for a hard drive. So I can't use either of those for an easy wireless backup.

I'm looking at two alternatives:

1. Buying the Airport Extreme ($179) that you mentioned, and buying a new 500GB or 1TB external drive that connects via USB to use with it (or possibly two 500GB drives).

2. Buying the Time Capsule, which combines the wireless Airport Extreme base station with either a 500GB ($299) or 1TB ($499) internal hard drive.

Now, while the idea of having a 500GB internal drive in the wireless base station for just $120 more than the base station alone costs sounds nice, I'm not sure I like the idea of possibly having to send in the whole Time Capsule unit because one part of it malfunctions one day.

So... I'm looking for feedback on which way you'd go or feedback from anyone who actually owns a Time Capsule.

In addition, I'd like to hear from those who are happy and unhappy with their current 500GB or 1TB drives, or any suggestions on the current 'best drives' to get.

Thanks to all for all the help.

[Cleo]

The Time Capsule seems very nice and you can still plugin more storage to its USB port. In addition Time Capsule has special software features like being able to archive data from its internal drive using the Airport admin software.

If I had to buy a new Airport today I would buy the Time Capsule but it was not available back when I bought my Airport Extreme.

[Simon]

Okay, it looks like the Time Capsule is the way to go. I saw something about the archiving features somewhere earlier but wasn't able to find it yesterday again. I'm thinking I'll go with the smaller 500GB version of the Time Capsule and add an external drive connected to it via USB.

I'm still interested in feedback on external hard drives in the 500GB to 1TB range. I love the low prices on storage these days (1TB for under $200!), but it makes me wonder if the current drives are as reliable as I'd want them to be if I'm going to entrust that much data to them.


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