From the submitter's point of view...

[tigermom]

Hooray! I just submitted my 12th freesite today! Having read here and on LL's themselves and still considering myself a newbie to FS, I have a few points that might, hopefully help LL owners see our side of the equations as submitters. And yes, I know many of you guys either started out as submitters, or still do the submitting thing as well...

This isn't a rant about how hard you're making life for the submitters either. Actually, I own quite a few mainstream directories and I happen to sympathize with the woes of having to review dozens, if not hundreds of submissions a day, of total jerks who can't follow the easiest rules, not to mention cheaters.

All that said, I do have a few points (if you're still reading this long post), about things that you might be able to improve to make life for the honest hard-working, manual submitter, a little bit easier. If your LL isn't established yet, you may want to consider the following -


1. Give me simple linking codes. I use my own design on the recips. All I need is a simple HTML code of two lines - <a href="category-url">Category Name</a><br><a href="LL-url">LL Name</a>. Add a title parameter if you like, but no design and style tags please.

Keep the fancy recips with the colors, descriptions, marquees and images if you want, but offer a simple version for us webmasters who try to maintain a clean look in the recip table. It's a pain stripping those unbelievably long codes produced by most LL's into a simple link...

2. Keep your forms short. Please don't add fields unless they are absolutely required. Sure, it's cool to have a big database on your end with all sorts of info (i.e. number of pictures, name of models, which sponsor, or my mom's maiden name) but it's a pain for me as a submitter, and frankly makes me move on to another LL. If you really want to add those fields, please don't make them mandatory.

3. Go easy on visual confirmation codes. Using visual confirmation codes to prevent auto-submissions is ok, but please keep it within reason. It is so frustrating having to stick my face into the screen trying to decide whether I'm seeing a small "o" a capital "O" or a zero... Use a code that has either all numbers, or all letters and no need to mix capital and small ones. Oh, and please keep the background within reason. Yes, you don't want OCR programs reading it, but you do want me reading it, don't you?

[Fonz]

I see the point of #1
The only thing that stops me from putting up such text recips is that the "more lazy" webmaster will just copy that code, put it on his site between a bunch of other recips that do have fancy colors/buttons and doesn't change the text color so that in some cases it has almost the same color as the background that it's on. So my recip will look crappy

[Useless]

#1 - I provide wonderfully crafted text recips. If the submitter feels that my recips are too ugly or cumbersome for their surely gorgeous free site design, it's up to them to create something that we can both accept, not me. I've already done the hard part.

#2 - I can't think of any lists which require such superfluous data as what you've mentioned, but my suggestion would be to follow your instinct to move on.

#3 - If they were easy to read, the terrorists win.

[Mateusz]

I second what Fonz said.
I used to have text recip only (pink but I had it clearly stated to change font color so it fits page design) and you wouldnt belive how many webmasters submited the sites with pink background At least I had no doubts who use auto creators/submiters and have been banning those fagots everyday.
Now I offer both text and table recips but I've noticed most use the tables anyway.
Also as a submiter when I use text recips I create them myself (of course using texts/urls provided in orginal recips)

[tigermom]

Fonz, yeah, I see your point. Maybe add a rule (oops, did I say that???) that your recip should be of the same type as other recips in the table and if they use the colorful designed ones for other LL's they should use yours as well? Just thinking aloud here.

Matuez, I think that if you don't designate the colors of your links they should come up the same as any link on the page. I use CSS for my designs anyway, so having internal style or font tags is redundant

UW - yes, I do come up with text links of my own, even if you won't provide them, but your LL had better have very good traffic to be worth my time for it. I will test, and move on if I'm not happy.

Yes, I will test and move on, not only based on your links design but my point is that if you make it easier for me and save me time as a submitter, I will be more likely to try your LL for longer. Give me a hard time, and I will move on more quickly. Sure, you may be overflooded with wonderful surely gorgeous free sites and don't need mine, so cool, I'll move on.

As for the readbale, or unreadable confirmation codes, isn't there some level where computers can read it but us mortals can do it with ease? I can't tell you how frustrating it is to fill in a form, then get stuck on that code, get the wrong one then get bounced back to the form which is now empty and need to be filled in again... yes, happened to me only yesterday and guess what, I just went on to another LL...

[ladydesigner]

Well, as a link list owner and free site builder, I also sometimes make custom recips. However, it only takes a second for me to right click on the links in recip tables, copy and paste. No time lost there.

[Toby]

#1 - Not an issue for me. It's just an quick copy & paste.

#2 - I have no problem filling in "extra" fields. If it eliminates some of my competition, all the better.

#3 - The issue of letters/numbers that look alike is a valid complaint. Many of the sites I submit to that are using this have gone to all lower case.

[MrYum]

Yep, I do have very simple non tabled recips...and yup, close to half my submissions have those links colored the same as or nearly the same as the page background. As Mateuz said, does make it easier to weed out those that are either autosubmitting...or just don't bother to look at the freakin page before submitting.

I also don't have any superfluous form fields, though I have seen a few that do. Shouldn't be a big deal to plug in the data and hit submit though.

Agreed on the confirmation codes, I've run across a few of those that are a real pain in the ass. Especially if they refresh and clear the fields

[docholly]

Originally Posted by tigermom

Yes, I will test and move on, not only based on your links design but my point is that if you make it easier for me and save me time as a submitter, I will be more likely to try your LL for longer. Give me a hard time, and I will move on more quickly. Sure, you may be overflooded with wonderful surely gorgeous free sites and don't need mine, so cool, I'll move on.

ahh such a great argument for more LL owners to use HFSlinks to fill their niches.

[Preacher]

#1 I agree 100% with what Fonz said. I have in my rules, that I love custom recips, but you know how lame it is when mine is the only simple text link on a page filled with standard recips. It has happened, and I let it slide, but it's lame.

#2 My linklist does have a couple of extra fields. One in particular is # of pics like you mentioned. But my LL also displays that info to the surfers, so you don't want to fill that in, then be my guest, but the links above and below yours are going to say 30 pics, 20 pics, and yours will say 0 pics. Which one is going to get clicked. Besides, when I used to build free-sites, I'd know how many pics I had just dropped into that site, especially as I numbered them to keep them in the correct order, doesn't seem like that big of a request on my end.

#3 No comment as it doesn't pertain to my list, I have a login system though, another step to keep webmasters honest. And I know that has kept certain submitters away from my site, but it's also kept the majority of cheats away too, so I'll stick with it.

I can understand your frustrations, but it's all part of the game we have to play to keep people honest. Too many cheats out there.

[glowlite]

Originally Posted by Preacher

I have in my rules, that I love custom recips, but you know how lame it is when mine is the only simple text link on a page filled with standard recips.

#1) Agree with Fonz and Preacher. I wouldn't list a site that did something that blatantly stupid. I only use custom recips and treat everyone as being equal. I even go so far as to rotate the LL display order. example: www[dot]grrl-porn.com/free/ls/index.html

#2) Agree with Annette except the pic/video counts and keywords as Preacher mentioned.

#3) Agree with Annette. Most (not all) confirmation codes are images that can be resized. Same applies to text. Why make them so damn small? Most (not all) confirmation codes do not use alpha "O" and are not case sensitive anyway. Anything 'round' is usually a numeric "0" (zero)

[MadMax]

#1) My recip table has both a white and maroon background. If I didn't add styles directly into the link tag one or the other of my links would be invisible with any really light or maroonish link color. The styles are all in a row at the beginning of each link tag. If it's honestly too much trouble to highlight them and hit "delete" when making up your recip tables (which only needs to be done once for each niche) then I suppose I'll have to live with the fact that I'll miss out on your submits.

If I offered just a simple text link, as others have said, it would be invisible at least 80% of the time because, sadly, MANY submitters just do the damned laziest thing possible and I have to tailor my rules and my recips to force them into submitting listable sites.

#2) Once you've got some experience as a submitter you'll pick up roboform or some other form filling tool that will do 90% of the work for you and you'll ONLY be hand typing the oddball fields.

#3) This is a valid gripe, but unfortunately most LLs are limited by their script and OCR technology in autosubmitters (which this is supposed to stop) is always getting better. I predict that the wave of the future is to require all submitters to sign up for an account. That plus a couple PHP tricks will make my new script damned near autosubmitter proof when I'm done with it and there won't be any security images involved.


P.S. I worked very hard not to post this with a "damned newbies trying to change the world before they even know the rules of the road" attitude. Not sure if I succeeded....

[tigermom]

Originally Posted by MadMax

P.S. I worked very hard not to post this with a "damned newbies trying to change the world before they even know the rules of the road" attitude. Not sure if I succeeded....

lol it's ok. I figured it might get under the skin of a few LL owners I actually perfectly understand where you're coming from. I own a very large mainstream forum as well as directories. I know what it feels like when a noob shows up and begins to blab about things that "us veterans" have been through again and again... And I figured most of the issues would actually get good responses. And they did too. Thanks everyone.

I think I just wanted to show what it looks like from the point of view of the newbie, not aiming necessarily to make you guys change stuff. As I stated in the beginning, this wasn't a rant but just a reflection of what it looks like when you are totally new to this and face these things for the first time.

[CatsEye]

Something simple that I really appreciate is when LLs alphabetize their recips. I check frequently to make sure I have their latest version of their recips - it seems that not everyone posts when they change - and a big THANK YOU! to LLs who took the time to make them scannable in alphabetical order.

It's a wee thing, but it steams me when I have to scroll down a page of what feels like 147 categories and they're ordered like this: "Anal, Teen, Indian, BBW, Watersports, Pornstars, Tranny, Blowjobs, Lesbian, Blonde, Redhead, Young Ladies, Brunette" etc!

[glowlite]

I'll 2nd that CatsEye

"Sorry, your site was rejected because it was submitted to the wrong category"

Things that make ya' go hmmm?

[KG Gary]

#1 I don't mind stripping the recips if I have to.

#2 I think this keeps me on my toes - it stops me from filling in forms like a robot and making mistakes (I hope).

#3 I haven't seen one yet which was a problem.

All in all the submittal process feels like the end of my working day, even though it happens at varying times.
It's extremely satisfying to get through the form filling and then sit back....and move on to the next freesite I'm building.