epassporte

Originally posted by Amparo
taboo_gal,

If you are having any problems please contact me directly at
310/577-2439 or my cell 310/384-6891.

Actually, since we've gotten set up, we're in good shape.

Thanks, Amparo.

And, Rand...I'm sure you're not so bad. Being in customer service myself, I take attitude very seriously. Just seems as though we have different approaches.

[AcidMaX]

So it's been a few days Rand, where is the bank transfer feature?

[Rand]

Originally posted by Jim
Rand
I remember you calling me to let me know that my limit was indeed raised. And yet, it was not.

Jim,

I looked further into this and I beleive I know what happened.

What is your ePassporte account name? Post here or drop me an email if you prefer. Rand @ Paycom.net.

I want to see if my theory is correct and get you straightened out.

[Rand]

Originally posted by AcidMaX
So it's been a few days Rand, where is the bank transfer feature?

Tick tock. tick tock. tick tock...........

[lassiter]

Originally posted by Amparo
Hello lassiter,

Please do not hesitate to contact me anytime via my cell at 310/384-6891. I will return your call as soon as possible.

Hi Amparo. Nice to see you here.

You probably don't know me by my "nom de porn" but I head Parvati Ventures Inc. - we operate the paysites austingirlz.com, femdom247.com, and ladyravenia.com.

I'll be happy to call you again to discuss this, but you were going to get back to me over 2 weeks ago about either opting out of ePassporte for customer transactions altogether, or (preferably) getting paid by check for those sales, the same as any other customer transaction. I never heard back from you.

The main issue for me is, it makes no sense whatsoever to force me to be paid via ePassporte for signups, since Epoch/Paycom IS ePassporte. This is like saying you can only pay me by credit card for CC signups, or you can only pay me by electronic check for check signups. That just seems bogus on its face - what it looks like is that Epoch is looking for a way to get additional capital into its ePassporte service. Well, sorry. I have a signed and initialed agreement that says I will be paid by check for my signups. If you want to offer ePassporte as an additional method of customer payment for signups, fine, but making me pay $100 up front (that's the equivalent of 8 signups that I don't get paid for) to open an ePassporte account, and to get paid for signups in a "currency" (ePassporte) that I can't even convert into real $$$, is just utterly ridiculous, IMO.

I'd dearly love to hear a logical justification for this policy, and I imagine some other folks on this board might also.

[lassiter]

Originally posted by Rand
Lassiter, if you are using FlexPost for your transactions, you have complete control of your response handler, which means what happens after the tran hit's our gateway. You control what happens with an approved tran or a declined one. Anyone who does not have a default set up for a decline is offered an ePassporte alternative. These are sales that would otherwise fall on the floor.

Well, that's the first I heard of FlexPost. Amparo never mentioned such a thing last time we spoke, and I can't find a place to set this option anywhere on the Client Services website.

Paycom doesn't own any banks. I wish we did.

A technicality, and actually still an open question.

http://news.com.com/2100-1017-858264...eed.ne_9067037

The mandatory $100 payment you speak of will go toward opening your account and the balance that is left is yours to do with as you please.

Yes, the balance that is left. Meanwhile Epoch holds on to, and earns interest on, $100 of my money as a precondition for allowing me to get paid for transactions that are legally mine. Y'all are entitled to your 15%, but to demand an additional $100 cash on top of that as a condtion for getting my money sounds like extortion. As I told Amparo, it makes no sense to force me to be paid in ePassporte currency when Epoch IS the recipient of the funds. Surely you can withdraw your own ePassporte funds and pay your clients by check as contracted for.

Anyway, I really don't wish to sound harsher than necessary. For all the problems I've had with Epoch/Paycom over the past year, y'all are total saints compared to one nasty little firm that I shall not name but which is spelled i-B-i-l-l. |skull|

[Rand]

Lassiter,

1) If you would like to see the documentation about how to integrate FlexPost into your program, send a request to support@epochsystems.com. You might also want to look at some of the other premium features that we offer at http://www.epochsystems.com/premiumfeatures/

2) Paycom does not own any banks.

3) Epoch and ePassporte are two sepearte companies. I don't know why you insist there is some sort of plot going on to earn interst on ePassporte account set up fees. If you can not afford $100 to open an account, then Epassporte may not be the solution for you.

4) Denied trans are dead unless YOU are doing something with them, which, you have the option of doing. Sending dead trans to Epassporte is a winning situation as it's money you would never otherwise realize. There are fees, yes, to open an ePassporte business account but they insure that Epassporte meets the Visa rules and the fee is modest. The fee is the same if you have no money in an account or a million dollars. I REALLY don't understand your issue.

Write to me if I can help you get an account set up. I know you'd be glad you did.

[lassiter]

Originally posted by Rand

3) Epoch and ePassporte are two sepearte companies. I don't know why you insist there is some sort of plot going on to earn interst on ePassporte account set up fees. If you can not afford $100 to open an account, then Epassporte may not be the solution for you.

Rand, why do I feel like I've just entered the twilight zone here?

Let me rephrase your statement in what seems to be a more accurate rendition from my viewpoint.

"If you cannot afford to pay whatever fees we decide to set up for you after the fact, as a precondition for getting paid for sales to your own website (in addition to the 15% we already charge you), then ____ may not be the solution for you."

Well, you're right about one thing. Epassporte is not the solution for me, and to force me to open an Epassporte account as a unilateral, arbitrary condition of getting paid for sales processed through Epoch is no solution at all. I never signed up for such an arrangement, never agreed to it. And if I'm judging your tone correctly, there appears to be a misapprehension about just whose sales these are and who is working for whom (hint - the person getting the commission is the employee, not the employer).

Denied trans are dead unless YOU are doing something with them, which, you have the option of doing.

There were no options presented to me. Funds were unilaterally withheld from me by Epoch until I phoned to enquire about the disparity. It was then, and only then, that I was told I would not receive the funds due me (only $15 at that point) unless I agreed to pay Epoch/Epassporte an extra $100 first. I see a problem here. It's curious that you do not.

Sending dead trans to Epassporte is a winning situation as it's money you would never otherwise realize.

No, sending dead trans to Epassporte when Epoch has unilaterally decided not to release funds from those transactions unless I open an Epassporte account (which, as you now claim, is a totally separate company and not part of Epoch) is a losing situation.

I might add that the transaction in question was dead for a reason - the customer was already in your fraud database for fraudulent chargebacks. These kinds of customers are just trouble, IMO, and I could probably live without 'em.

I REALLY don't understand your issue.

This is obvious. I don't understand your lack of understanding. Let me put it "country-simple" as we say in Texas:

I want and expect Epoch/Paycom to pay me for ALL transactions incurred through them, minus a mutually-contracted for commission, by check. I don't care, and it should not matter to the client, whether the customer pays Epoch via credit card, electronic check, dialer, Epassporte, or sacks of copper pennies. To withhold funds due me until I agree to open a separate account (to the tune of a hefty fee) with a separate company as a precondition of Epoch paying me funds already due me is extortion. It's not the $100 (well, it is, too - like I said that's 8 signups I don't get paid for). It's the unilateral, arbitrary, nonsensical, and backhanded way it's being implemented. That, and the failure to straightforwardly respond to my questions.

Let me ask you one more time - WHY is Epoch refusing to pay me via check for transactions THEY chose to handle via EPassporte? Why am I not forced to accept payment from Epoch by credit card, since the customer paid Epoch by CC? If this is a regulatory issue, please cite chapter and verse. Otherwise, Rand, the burden is on Epoch to make their case.

I don't appreciate this "if you can't afford it you shouldn't be doing it" attitude one damn bit. I already pay Epoch 15% of all transactions. That's not what this issue is about.

Write to me if I can help you get an account set up. I know you'd be glad you did.

I'm breathing slowly, and counting to 10. No, 20.

[Rand]

Let me ask you one more time - WHY is Epoch refusing to pay me via check for transactions THEY chose to handle via EPassporte? Why am I not forced to accept payment from Epoch by credit card, since the customer paid Epoch by CC

Epoch doesn't make payments via credit card.

Regardless, I am not going to explain this any further. I can't force ePassporte to pay you, but I can put a stop to your complaint.

Since you do not want your denied transactions going anywhere, as of today they won't. I've asked tech to do nothing with your denials. Epoch is going to cut you a check (you've doubled your money by the way) for the funds collected on your denied trans via ePassporte. No further Epassporte transactions will ever take place on your account.

Good luck to you in all of your future ventures.

[Surfn]

Rand

I can understand what lassiter is saying and I agree with with him. You have not explain any of your position. Just stated and reiterated it without reason.

I find you last post extremely rude and hostile, to wit, I am now considering closing my epassporte account.

[lassiter]

Originally posted by Rand

(Let me ask you one more time - WHY is Epoch refusing to pay me via check for transactions THEY chose to handle via EPassporte? Why am I not forced to accept payment from Epoch by credit card, since the customer paid Epoch by CC?)

Epoch doesn't make payments via credit card.

Which is not in any way an actual answer to my question, but, well...

Regardless, I am not going to explain this any further.

Wow, ok. Why not? Am I asking Questions That Should Not Be Asked or something?

Epoch is going to cut you a check (you've doubled your money by the way) for the funds collected on your denied trans via ePassporte.

Which is exactly what I was suggesting should be done all along, but as a matter of standard Epoch policy, not as a fit of pique.

No further Epassporte transactions will ever take place on your account.

Well, as I clearly stated elsewhere, my preferred solution would have been for Epoch simply to pay clients by check for all transactions incurred, regardless of how Epoch chose to do the customer side of the transactions. But if this is in fact the most professional way that Epoch can muster to resolve the situation, then, geez, ok, that will be perfectly fine. Thank you.

[Rand]

Originally posted by Surfn
Rand

I can understand what lassiter is saying and I agree with with him. You have not explain any of your position. Just stated and reiterated it without reason.

Let me just chalk this up to maybe I'm way to close to the subject and truly do not understand the question. I've spent more of my time here on this board answering questions than I typically do on any industry forum.

I'll attempt to answer what I think you must be asking. If I miss the point, you can ask again.

If the question is, why do transactions go to Epassporte upon denials, the answer is as follows.

Epoch offers it's clients as much flexibility as possible while remaining within all card association rules. A new client can set up sites for processing with a simple link to a join form, or through a sophisticated integration (FlexPost) which allows for maximum flexibility during a transaction. If a transaction is approved, then A, B, and C happen. But, if a transaction is declined, then what? If a client has integrated FlexPost, they have full control of their response handler. Some clients send their denied transactions to MPA2, or another IPSP, or an ACH form, or to ePassporte, or to a dialer, or do nothing. With Flexpost, the client decides what happens. IF the client is using a "standard" join form process (in other words, no integration), a denied transaction may first go to an ACH form (if it's a U.S. tran) and then to an alternative ePassporte form. Epassporte is used only as a last ditch effort as an alternative way to get a sale when all else fails. However, a percentage of those people wanting to get to your site will go through the process. At this point, the transaction becomes an ePassporte transaction processed by Epoch. The proceeds of that sale go into an Epassporte account on behalf of the client. Generally, unless you are a large volume client, it takes some time for that balance to reach anything significant. However, it is found money.

This process is in place to increase your sales. It works due to an agreement between Epoch and ePassporte. An Epoch client can, if they wanted to for whatever reason, opt out of this process by integrating FlexPost and handling their own denials in any way they wish.

To collect the funds accumulated by these otherwise denied orders, an Epoch client must open an Epassporte business account to gain access to the money processed though Epassporte. To do so, a wire transfer of funds must be sent to Epassporte to meet Visa's "know your customer" rules. Epassporte has fees to set up a business account which total somewhere under $100. Once an account is established, however, a business account holder becomes able to issue accounts of their own which is why the are so popular among sponsor programs wishing to pay affiliates. Funds in an Epassporte business account may be withdrawn at any ATM, transferred to other Epassporte account holders, or used to shop online (with the Virtual Visa) or around town with the Electron card.



If the question is why can't those funds be paid out by check by Epoch, the answer is as follows.

Epoch and Epassporte are separate companies, although, Epoch built the technology for their online processing and Epoch has an obvious interest in Epassporte. The funds collected by Epassporte and processed by Epoch remain in an Epassporte account. Epoch does not cut checks for Epassporte. Epoch get's paid the typical transaction fee for processing the sale, and the balance of funds goes into an Epassporte account until claimed by the client.

The set up fee for an Epassporte account is paid to Epassporte, not Epoch and, again, is designed to meet card association rules. Epassporte is business too. They charge for their services. Understandable since they make money from fees, mostly transaction fees and account origination fees, as they are not a credit card which makes money from interest.


I hope this helps clear things up.

[lassiter]

Originally posted by Rand

The set up fee for an Epassporte account is paid to Epassporte, not Epoch and, again, is designed to meet card association rules. Epassporte is business too. They charge for their services. Understandable since they make money from fees, mostly transaction fees and account origination fees, as they are not a credit card which makes money from interest.


I hope this helps clear things up.

Rand, I don't really want to belabor points that may be moot for me, but for the record and the benefit of others here:

If Epoch is shunting off my failed signups to the "separate company" Epassporte, and Epassporte is taking a fee from someone (presumably from the receiver, if this is the same as PayPal's model) then where does Epoch even come into the picture to take its 15% of the gross for that non-Epoch signup? PayPal, for example, only charges a 3% transaction fee for receiving payments.

What happens if I set up a business account with Epassporte, and offer it directly on my tour's join page as an alternative to paying Epoch by CC or check? I get exactly the same result (a signup and payment via Epassporte), but I'm no longer paying Epoch an additional 15% off the top. Sounds like a better deal than letting Epoch shunt the sales off to Epassporte while still taking a cut that isn't theirs.

What is the processing fee for receiving payments via Epassporte directly? I guess if it's still 15% then its the same either way (though it's hardly competitive with PayPal's 3%), and these comments are irrelevant, but I am curious.

[rickmercer]

for your thoughtful and insightful questions.

I am getting pressured by epoch to sign up for a business account w epassporte as well and have not been getting straight answers.

This thread has been extremely illuminating and your questions in particular mirror mine.

Thanks again and to rand for his answers thus far.

My fundamental question is how do I get the money.

Very thorough explanation, Rand. I think you and Lassiter would have been saved some frustration if that was given in the beginning.

And, since epassporte has seen fit to cut a check to Lassiter for those funds, could that not be instituted as a standard practice for those who do not wish to open an epassporte account? It may serve to save time, trouble and frustration in the future.

[Rand]

Originally posted by lassiter

If Epoch is shunting off my failed signups to the "separate company" Epassporte, and Epassporte is taking a fee from someone (presumably from the receiver, if this is the same as PayPal's model) then where does Epoch even come into the picture to take its 15% of the gross for that non-Epoch signup? PayPal, for example, only charges a 3% transaction fee for receiving payments.

Epoch is the payment gateway, as we are for anyone under our IPSP agreement or using us as a gateway to their own merchant account. Epoch charges a fee for it's services.

It seems like I'm stating the obvious here, but, PayPal does not allow adult transactions (MCC 5967) which are considered by Visa as high risk. In the eyes of the banking institutions, if one transaction is a 5967 tran, ALL of the trans processed to that merchant account are considered high risk. Which is why they got out of the business of adult and why they charge a much lower fee. Their risk, their parameters, the rules they must abide by are very different. [/b][/quote]

What happens if I set up a business account with Epassporte, and offer it directly on my tour's join page as an alternative to paying Epoch by CC or check? I get exactly the same result (a signup and payment via Epassporte), but I'm no longer paying Epoch an additional 15% off the top. Sounds like a better deal than letting Epoch shunt the sales off to Epassporte while still taking a cut that isn't theirs.

Did you say something earlier about the twilight zone???

Epassporte is a payment mechanism and a Visa product. They are not an IPSP. They do not approve or decline transactions. That's Epoch's role in the process. No other IPSP, at this time, has any agreement with Epassporte.

What is the processing fee for receiving payments via Epassporte directly? I guess if it's still 15% then its the same either way (though it's hardly competitive with PayPal's 3%), and these comments are irrelevant, but I am curious.

You cannot compare rates of Epoch / Epassporte / PayPal. They are not like entities in terms of their place in the markets.

If you want a PayPal "type" of alternative to sell goods / services directly with ePassporte, they offer something called ePpurchase. You would need to contact someone in sales for a rate.

However, if you have funds in an Epassporte business account that you want to "cash out", you simply pay whatever ATM fee your local bank charges to withdraw the money, or, for large sums of money you could have it wired from your business account. The way that most people use a business account is simply moving money to affilates at a cost of $2 per push, regardless of the amount. There are no percentage costs. A personal accoun holer can transfer money to any other Epassporte account holder at 25 cents per push (up to 5 per day).

[lassiter]

Originally posted by Rand

Did you say something earlier about the twilight zone???

Epassporte is a payment mechanism and a Visa product. They are not an IPSP. They do not approve or decline transactions. That's Epoch's role in the process. No other IPSP, at this time, has any agreement with Epassporte.

Well, obviously. My point being that if I receive virtual cash via Epassporte for a paysite signup, there's nothing to approve or decline. Yes, I'd be responsible for setting up username and password and keeping track of member expiration, but I do know how to operate .htaccess and .htpasswd scripts. .

If you want a PayPal "type" of alternative to sell goods / services directly with ePassporte, they offer something called ePpurchase. You would need to contact someone in sales for a rate.

That's what I needed to know. Thank you.

[Rand]

Originally posted by taboo_gal
...since epassporte has seen fit to cut a check to Lassiter for those funds, could that not be instituted as a standard practice for those who do not wish to open an epassporte account? It may serve to save time, trouble and frustration in the future.

taboo_gal,

Epassporte did not cut a check to Lassiter. Epoch did. The amount of money in question was a lot less than the cost of me going back and forth with him about it. The degree of confusion about Epassporte has amazed me. That is certainly what I've learned from this thread.

If you do not want to have Epassporte attempt to collect otherwise lost sales on your behalf, you must have a response handler in place for your declined transactions. Otherwise, Epoch will by defualt attempt to offer your customers any avaialbe alternative to capture the sale from your hard earned traffic. This includes, as a final attempt, offering Epassporte as an means of payment. As an option opposed to nothing less than a complete loss, it's probably a good idea to see what might happen.

Lassiter claims he never agreed to this arrangement. In fact, he did. I pulled his signed processing agreement and Exhibit F states the following:

EXHIBIT F - EPASSPORTE PROCESSING

1. ePassporte Transactions: Client wishes to accept transactions on ePassporte Visa Cards:

(a) Service Provider shall make all payments due to Client on Customer Charges completed with ePassporte Visa Cards ("Net Client ePassporte Payment") to Client's ePassporte Commercial Account, which Client shall open pursuant to a separate Business Account Agreement with ePassporte, N.V.


I guess I just assume people read their contracts.

Epassporte did not cut a check to Lassiter. Epoch did. The amount of money in question was a lot less than the cost of me going back and forth with him about it.

My mistake. It is confusing though because ePassporte is a technology developed by and released from Epoch; and Epoch has agreed to cut a check to settle an issue with ePassporte. Though it is stated and they may very well be 2 separate companies, they overlap (or at least seemingly) quite often.

Being close to the situation it is difficult for you to see why one would be confused. I deal with this often. It is hard to see things from a user's standpoint when you are on the other side.

Lassiter claims he never agreed to this arrangement. In fact, he did. I pulled his signed processing agreement and Exhibit F states the following:

EXHIBIT F - EPASSPORTE PROCESSING

1. ePassporte Transactions: Client wishes to accept transactions on ePassporte Visa Cards:

(a) Service Provider shall make all payments due to Client on Customer Charges completed with ePassporte Visa Cards ("Net Client ePassporte Payment") to Client's ePassporte Commercial Account, which Client shall open pursuant to a separate Business Account Agreement with ePassporte, N.V.


I guess I just assume people read their contracts.

Never assume anything. More often than not, I find that users (myself included) either, never read, briefly scan or read and do not understand what they've read.

Even with a legal background (spent 5 years as a legal assistant) and being an ePassporte business account holder, I would not know that statement meant my declined transactions would roll to ePassporte.

Perhaps he did not fully understand what that meant or think to ask for a deeper explanation.

The business world moves so quickly that one rarely gets the time to carefully read, process, understand and consider what they are doing. The goal is to get it done, get your cash and move on. More often than not, only when an issue arises do things begin to get scrutinized. Its assbackwards, but its true.

The degree of confusion about Epassporte has amazed me. That is certainly what I've learned from this thread.

Maybe you could develop a tutorial or help doc using laymens terms that are easier to understand. We find it helps our users tremendously as does a short consultation period.

Sometimes, especially with a new or fairly new technology, you just have to educate your users.

[lassiter]

Originally posted by taboo_gal

Even with a legal background (spent 5 years as a legal assistant) and being an ePassporte business account holder, I would not know that statement meant my declined transactions would roll to ePassporte.

Exactly so. There's also a part of the contract that says something to the effect that I can be dropped by Epoch if I fail to bring in a minimum of $2000 in gross sales a month. I had to call Amparo to verify that that part of the contract in fact didn't apply to me.

I guess the thing I'm most curious about now is why this "FlexPost" option is only revealed to people when they start to complain in public. Rand's posted link to the "premium services" page will reveal that there is no mention there whatsover of FlexPost. I don't have my contract in front of me, so perhaps Rand can tell me which clause in my contract mentions that?

[Greenguy]

This is a lot to read - LOL

Rand - this doesn't effect me at all, but I think the main problem is that you're doing this stuff backwards. Instead of the default being that the declines get sent to ePassporte (which you have to get an account for) why not have the default be nothing & offer the option to those that want or have an ePassporte account to use it?

I'd bet there a lot of people out there with the same problem lassiter has/had that don't even know there's a problem.

[Rand]

Originally posted by Greenguy
Instead of the default being that the declines get sent to ePassporte (which you have to get an account for) why not have the default be nothing & offer the option to those that want or have an ePassporte account to use it?

Because it makes no sense. Most business people would prefer to have an option than no option. The opporuntity to make money exists so why would anyone have a problem with it? Further, and i think especially in this particular market segment, people are lazy to implement. And since there is nothing for a client to have to do to implement Epassporte as an option, it is set up the way it is. Who in thier right mind would not like to hear a phone call from their account rep saying "Hey we've got a few hundred, or a few thousand, dollars for you that you would otherwise never had a chance to make? Want some found cash? Maybe I've been working around credit cards too long or something, but I can't come up with one good reason why anyone would not want this set up. It truly is a nothing to lose and everything to gain situation.

As a final note, if the balance in your Epassporte account is significant enough, you do not need to wire funds and open a business account, although, that will still be the best option. However, you can open an Epassporte account and have the fees deducted from whatever money is owed to you. The balance will be avaialbe to you to spend. Nice. Easy. No wire.


If anyone else has any questions for me, please send them to my email address. I think we've pretty much covered all we need to on this thread.



Thanks GreenGuy and Jim.

[lassiter]

Originally posted by Rand


If anyone else has any questions for me, please send them to my email address. I think we've pretty much covered all we need to on this thread.

I'm just glad that it so clearly has nothing whatever to do with forcing webmasters to open an Epassporte account in order to get paid for their signups. How could I have been so wrong about that?

[Greenguy]

Rand - if you waived the set up fees & the hoops one has to jump thru, then your post would make complete sense.

The point has always been that it seems retarded to FORCE people to pay to sign up for ePassporte if they want all this "found" money.

[Opti]

Still no response from epassporte to my attempt to get a limit raise Rand.

2 emails have been sent to support, as you instructed early in this thread... maybe they went to the same place Jim's faxes ended up!

Also.. maybe I missed the answer.. so Ill ask again.. Is there a way I can take one off creditcard payments from non-epassporte members with my personal epassporte account?