2257 regs published in full

[SirMoby]

Don't the regulations clearly state that the url will be required for images published AFTER June 23, 2005? I've read section 75.2 (a) 1 a few times it it seems that

"For any performer portrayed in such a depiction after June 23, 2005, the records shall include"

(ii) Where the depiction is published on an Internet computer site
or service, a copy of any URL associated with the depiction or, if no
URL is associated with the depiction, another uniquely identifying
reference associated with the location of the depiction on the
Internet.

I'm prepared to go back to every url I have but it seems this paragraph means that we don't have to.

[HornyHeather]

Sir Moby I am thinking the same thing..at least that is what it looks like

[RawAlex]

SirMoby, you have to read further. The no URL thing is for dynamically generated pages or scripted pages where you cannot always say that the image will appear on such and such a page - or that the image on that page may be different on each visit (picture a daily gallery page, example). Otherwise, it is URL to IMAGE records, from what I could see.

Mr Blue, it's your place of business. Please read the whole section that describes exactly how a visit will happen.

... and they will happen, I am sure.

Alex

[Wenchy]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

SirMoby, you have to read further. The no URL thing is for dynamically generated pages or scripted pages where you cannot always say that the image will appear on such and such a page - or that the image on that page may be different on each visit (picture a daily gallery page, example). Otherwise, it is URL to IMAGE records, from what I could see.

Alex

Hmm, you've got me thinking. So... (merely conjecture here and a ton of wishful thinking) if I use a banner rotator that would make me exempt by virtue of the "dynamic" nature of the page, provided I'm interpreting this correctly. Interesting... veddy interesting

That having been said, in further ponderings over the course of the day, I've almost decided that this whole debacle could turn out to be a good thing (provided they drop the retroactive shit!).

And before you all decide to come after me with pitchforks, hear me out...

I've been screaming for years that giving away free hardcore porn was tantamount to shooting ourselves in the foot. Furthermore, I'm also an advocate of text over banners whenever, wherever, and as often as possible. I have absolutely no doubt that softcore content providers will be coming out of the woodwork in the very near future which will provide us with "safe" and "compliant" filler for our pages. Sponsors will also begin creating "2257 compliant" ad tools, merely to save themselves the agony of mountains of paperwork.

If we're smart we can use this whole stinking mess to our advantage. "Hey, Joe Surfer... you want hardcore? Your freeloading days are over, pallie... too bad, so sad. Cough up the green or do without!" We could all see a HUGE jump in revenues if we're smart enough to seize the opportunity in front of us.

Trust me... anybody who knows me will tell you I'm certainly no Pollyanna and I realize there are still questions about what is deemed "obscene" and whether or not "censored" pictures fall into that category, but things are what they are and I for one am open to exploring alternatives that will keep me in business for a long time to come. If we are forced to change, surfers will be forced to change with us and that could be a good thing IMHO.

(Pardon the long post... I'm working a ton and a half of overtime lately and I don't have the luxury of posting my thoughts one at a time! )

[WolfTexas]

Originally Posted by Wenchy

I've been screaming for years that giving away free hardcore porn was tantamount to shooting ourselves in the foot. Furthermore, I'm also an advocate of text over banners whenever, wherever, and as often as possible. I have absolutely no doubt that softcore content providers will be coming out of the woodwork in the very near future which will provide us with "safe" and "compliant" filler for our pages. Sponsors will also begin creating "2257 compliant" ad tools, merely to save themselves the agony of mountains of paperwork.

If we're smart we can use this whole stinking mess to our advantage. "Hey, Joe Surfer... you want hardcore? Your freeloading days are over, pallie... too bad, so sad. Cough up the green or do without!" We could all see a HUGE jump in revenues if we're smart enough to seize the opportunity in front of us.

Trust me... anybody who knows me will tell you I'm certainly no Pollyanna and I realize there are still questions about what is deemed "obscene" and whether or not "censored" pictures fall into that category, but things are what they are and I for one am open to exploring alternatives that will keep me in business for a long time to come. If we are forced to change, surfers will be forced to change with us and that could be a good thing IMHO.

(Pardon the long post... I'm working a ton and a half of overtime lately and I don't have the luxury of posting my thoughts one at a time! )

Very good point. Agreed! This is going to shake up the industry and possibly put some legitimacy on some of the business. It will kill our site, because we jumped in at the wrong time and have no capital built up to support the process, but for those of our friends that have been in business a while with the resources to follow through, it will be an astounding benefit.

What saddens me is that there won't be the outlet for people with sexual desires to exhibit. Business is fine, but self expression is now hindered. Oh well. Such is life in modern Christian dominated America.

I guess our class system is going to continue to be built along religious lines, and politics is the avenue. So much for separation of church and State.

Those that continue in the industry, be warned. Our religiously based extreme rightwing government is fast approaching a time when webmasters, models and affiliated parties will all be prosecuted as sex offenders. Then all the overly inclusive generalities mentioned here and everywhere else about child molesters and pedophiles will incorporate not just those with definitive problems in making good judgements (true molesters and pedophiles), but also legitimate (albeit illegitimate in the eyes of Jonny Gov) business people who will have to register as sex offenders and suffer the lifelong abuse of not being able to provide for themselves or families because our beloved government has been put in place to legislate morality at the expense of personal safety and decency.

As a further explanation, please remember, that not all sex offenders are currently people that abduct or molest children, but sometimes people that are in a consentual relationship (even some without proven sexual activity) where someone got mad and decided to prosecute for rape or a similar, perhaps even legitimate, story, that get lumped in and ostricized as being dangers to society.

We, too, as industry "personnel" could be lumped into this group if our current administration and legislative bodies continue down this road. The ACLU, et al, haven't aided in stemming this tide as much as was once the case. And this is due in large part to the DOJ or similar bodies "shoring up" policies that will benefit their theocratic agendas in the name of either getting re-elected or proving their "worth" to task of their job.

Protestant America is slowly reverting to the age of the Crusades, and we're looking down the barrel of the gun. Be careful how you proceed!

For those of you with nothing to lose, and everything to gain, I applaud your decision to perservere, but if the revisions to 2257 don't get derailed, we won't be part of the new success. We're too small, and too remote to avoid the disaster of being prosecuted for the many things that this Pandora's box is bound to impose on the industry. We won't risk it.

In this case, I am not bitter, but it is growing more and more apparent, that in the "modern America" the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

Wolf.

PS...in most states, we've all done something that can be construed as a sex offense. Have you ever leared at anyone without their knowledge (underage or not) and thought illicit or lacivious thoughts? That's a sex offense in at least half the states of our country. Beware the thought police!

[LindaMight]

Originally Posted by WolfTexas

Very good point. Agreed! This is going to shake up the industry and possibly put some legitimacy on some of the business. It will kill our site, because we jumped in at the wrong time and have no capital built up to support the process, but for those of our friends that have been in business a while with the resources to follow through, it will be an astounding benefit.

What saddens me is that there won't be the outlet for people with sexual desires to exhibit. Business is fine, but self expression is now hindered. Oh well. Such is life in modern Christian dominated America.

I guess our class system is going to continue to be built along religious lines, and politics is the avenue. So much for separation of church and State.

Those that continue in the industry, be warned. Our religiously based extreme rightwing government is fast approaching a time when webmasters, models and affiliated parties will all be prosecuted as sex offenders. Then all the overly inclusive generalities mentioned here and everywhere else about child molesters and pedophiles will incorporate not just those with definitive problems in making good judgements (true molesters and pedophiles), but also legitimate (albeit illegitimate in the eyes of Jonny Gov) business people who will have to register as sex offenders and suffer the lifelong abuse of not being able to provide for themselves or families because our beloved government has been put in place to legislate morality at the expense of personal safety and decency.

As a further explanation, please remember, that not all sex offenders are currently people that abduct or molest children, but sometimes people that are in a consentual relationship (even some without proven sexual activity) where someone got mad and decided to prosecute for rape or a similar, perhaps even legitimate, story, that get lumped in and ostricized as being dangers to society.

We, too, as industry "personnel" could be lumped into this group if our current administration and legislative bodies continue down this road. The ACLU, et al, haven't aided in stemming this tide as much as was once the case. And this is due in large part to the DOJ or similar bodies "shoring up" policies that will benefit their theocratic agendas in the name of either getting re-elected or proving their "worth" to task of their job.

Protestant America is slowly reverting to the age of the Crusades, and we're looking down the barrel of the gun. Be careful how you proceed!

For those of you with nothing to lose, and everything to gain, I applaud your decision to perservere, but if the revisions to 2257 don't get derailed, we won't be part of the new success. We're too small, and too remote to avoid the disaster of being prosecuted for the many things that this Pandora's box is bound to impose on the industry. We won't risk it.

In this case, I am not bitter, but it is growing more and more apparent, that in the "modern America" the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

Wolf.

PS...in most states, we've all done something that can be construed as a sex offense. Have you ever leared at anyone without their knowledge (underage or not) and thought illicit or lacivious thoughts? That's a sex offense in at least half the states of our country. Beware the thought police!

I don't like this grim forecast. In fact, it is the only message that I have read on five different message boards and pages and pages of messages that has scared me. If all of the above holds true, we should all close down NOW and never look back.

Linda

[LindaMight]

On a side note, aside from being scared of Wolf's prediction....

We have done it, we have rented office space, signed the lease today, effective June 1st, and am going to actually set up an office that will house not only one of our computers, but it will also house our documents that pertain to the identity of George and myself linked to all of the images and videos on my website. My other two friends that show up in just a few updates....well I am going to just ditch the pictures and the video. It didn't add a whole lot to the site. And even though I have their documentation, I figure the less I have to deal with the better. George and I are linking our own pictures to every single URL on our website and every mpeg and banner. And they will all be cross-referenced with our real names, stage names, and our company name. PLUS we have an appointment with our corporate attorney who took care of our incorporation six years ago to go over any details that we've missed.

My big question is this...... we do not show our faces in hardly any images or videos....nor did we show faces of the two friends of our. So, if we do not show faces, what good is the real ID anyway? How would anyone know it is me, or George, or either of our friends. ?? And would that not be the case with each and every porn picture where the face is obscure?

Linda

[HornyHeather]

Originally Posted by LindaMight

I don't like this grim forecast. In fact, it is the only message that I have read on five different message boards and pages and pages of messages that has scared me. If all of the above holds true, we should all close down NOW and never look back.

Linda

I second that..Its scary, its risky and I do believe this is to get us all off the net...They will win, we will go quietly into the night and be good little citizens.....

Strike 1 - Porn...what is next?

And screw there damned christianity, The way I look at it, My religion accepts nudity, we were born nude..Nude is beautiful, we just cover it up because they say we have to.

Uncle Sam - NOT

[WolfTexas]

Originally Posted by LindaMight

I don't like this grim forecast. In fact, it is the only message that I have read on five different message boards and pages and pages of messages that has scared me. If all of the above holds true, we should all close down NOW and never look back.

Linda

This is a grim forecast, Linda. But take it for what it's worth. There are some reasons to believe that our government will be as inept as they have always been, and life will proceed. June 24th will be the day I look to find out where we go from here.

We're preparing, and hoping for the best. But it's important that everyone understands that the risks of our rightwing brethren going to extremes is very real. If you don't vote, you might want to. If you vote without thought, you might want to change that.

No one saw Hitler in such a light until the smoke cleared Auschwitz. Let's not make the same mistake. We are in more control than we realize, but it's not going to happen without the lawyers, and our own rise to response.

Take heed. Action is privilege, no action is your circumstance. Ain't America grand!? Porn activists. Doesn't happen anywhere else.

Wolf. (stopping the W. response for fear of being lumped into a partisan position)

[SexVideoContent]

Originally Posted by Wenchy

If we're smart we can use this whole stinking mess to our advantage. "Hey, Joe Surfer... you want hardcore? Your freeloading days are over, pallie... too bad, so sad. Cough up the green or do without!" We could all see a HUGE jump in revenues if we're smart enough to seize the opportunity in front of us.

Trust me... anybody who knows me will tell you I'm certainly no Pollyanna and I realize there are still questions about what is deemed "obscene" and whether or not "censored" pictures fall into that category, but things are what they are and I for one am open to exploring alternatives that will keep me in business for a long time to come. If we are forced to change, surfers will be forced to change with us and that could be a good thing IMHO.

I think you're absolutely right for US based webmasters and US based paysites.

However I also think that the majority of TGP submitters are not based in the US and this will probably not affect them in the slightest. When you also consider that some of the biggest paysites are foreign based and have no need to comply with 2257 or any US laws for that matter, this is probably not going to affect the availability of hardcore and free hardcore at all. TGP owners (the biggest of which are all foreign based anyway) will probably start accepting more galleries hardcore galleries from foreigners instead of the softcore from the US.

I sincerely hope I'm wrong about that, but it seems like a good possibility.

Actually since foreign companies will now have a bigger share of the profits, there could very well be a large increase in the number of hardcore websites run by foreign companies, and since they will not be as concerned about US obscenity laws, there might very well be a huge increase in the number of extreme hardcore sites available on the foreign market.

If Bush thought the internet was 'dirty' now just wait until he sees what giving an advantage to countries that permit bestiality and such does.

[HornyHeather]

Alex do you think there is a slim chance in hell anything will be changed by then? Just curious

[RawAlex]

Heather, I feel that one or more groups will move to get an injunction in court before the effective date. There would appear to me to be enough items of interest within the rules as well as "on point" judgements to merit some time before the courts.

That being said, I would not base my business entirely on hoping the courts do the right thing. Depending on the venue, injunctive relief could be refused but an appeal put in line for a later date.

I am hoping. I wouldn't count on it.

Alex

[Qon]

how does this affect companies who are based in the us but have foreign offices where their records are stored?

[RawAlex]

damnq, us based means that it is likely the rules apply to you - and doubly important, you need to think about model IDs for your overseas models.

Alex

[Qon]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

damnq, us based means that it is likely the rules apply to you - and doubly important, you need to think about model IDs for your overseas models.

Alex

alex, wasn't asking if the rules apply... i know they apply. it just doesn't say anywhere in the law that my records keeping location has 2 b in the US. if my primary place of business is not my US location, but my foreign location, technically that's the place i would keep them housed anyhow... its not breaking the law, just makes it more difficult for them to enforce it on those who keep records outside of the continental US.



...

[RawAlex]

damnq, I agree, nothing says you have to have the records in the US, but remember this:

Any producer required by this part to maintain records shall make such records available at the producer's place of business

Where exactly do you do the business of producing websites. As a primary producer, you might have your records is thailand or where ever it is you shoot your stuff, that could be the place of business for the primary producer. However, as secondary producer (actually putting the stuff on websites) if you do that business from within the US, then your records as secondary producer likely need to be there.

I wouldn't build, create, or operate websites in the US without having the 2257 info in the office. That's my take, anyway.

Your domain is registered in Florida. That is where they are going to go looking.

Alex

[Qon]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

damnq, I agree, nothing says you have to have the records in the US, but remember this:



Where exactly do you do the business of producing websites. As a primary producer, you might have your records is thailand or where ever it is you shoot your stuff, that could be the place of business for the primary producer. However, as secondary producer (actually putting the stuff on websites) if you do that business from within the US, then your records as secondary producer likely need to be there.

I wouldn't build, create, or operate websites in the US without having the 2257 info in the office. That's my take, anyway.

Your domain is registered in Florida. That is where they are going to go looking.

Alex

i'm not saying this applies to me, btw.... i'm just asking a question . but if the person creates websites, manages websites & conducts the production of all of it overseas even though the principle physical office is in the US, then they are entitled to store them & make them available at either location. i know most people will not be able to do this, but for those who can..... interesting option.



...

[RawAlex]

damnq, it's pretty unavoidable - a US based company better have records in the US. I wouldn't want DOJ knocking on my door (It's a bit far for them to go, but that is another story) and asking for records, and all I can say is "no, they are in XXXXXXXXXXXXna". I think you can see how that really wouldn't fly, especially if the US company or individual is the beneficial owner of the content or the websites.

Some people are suggesting stuff can be done with offshore trusts, holding companies, double blind trusts (a trust, held be a trust) etc. Besides some practical issues, everyone needs to spend time looking at the tax code to see what would do to them, and what you would have to declare anyway.

If you are a US citizen running porn sites, well, I think every lawyer would say "keep the records".

Alex

[Qon]

ok, you're missing my point.... i'll leave it @ that




..

[RawAlex]

NO, actually, I think I understand completely - but I think you are confusing primary and secondary producer. If the person or company in the US is involved in the publication of a website then they are secondary producer and need records, even if most of the work is done outside. If the US company is the beneficial owner of the websites in any way, then they are likely secondary producers and need records.

The only way this works is if everyone involved is outside the US, the company is outside the US, and all the people who work on, produce, or pay for production of the content are outside the US. Once you get a solid connection to the US, someone is keeping records.

I know some people are going to try putting it all offshore, but unless they put themselves offshore too, they are running a huge risk (google for tax evasion offshore trust and similar terms). The DOJ ain't joking!

Alex

[RawAlex]

As I mentioned elsewhere, the May23rd edition of Business Week had a very interesting article regarding the evangelistic christians in the south, how they have propped up Bush in the last election, and how they now want to get paid back bigtime. Most of these groups (names like Orsteen, cerflo dollar and others) run mega churches, often preaching to tens of thousands of people each week. They have wide reaching television programs (Orsteen claims 7 million viewers a week) and the have best selling books. Their goal is a literal interpretation of the bible as directly what god said, and that makes porn a big no-no.

Their stated goal is to get enough seats in the senate to be able to get past the fillibuster, so they can install as many hyper conservative judges as possible into the federal courts - including 2 or even 3 potential supreme court seats in the next few years.

It would take probably 20 - 30 years to undo the damage this would cause.

The crusade isn't against us directly. It's against all things "non christian" in america, all the things they see as bad. We are but one of those things.

Alex

[Qon]

ok, lemme clarify once more.

business A is incorporated & maintains a business office in the US for accounting & collection purposes. business A does most of its production and work (online & offline) at another office not in the continental US. business A maintains all its records at its PRIMARY place of business overseas (us company operating with permission in a foreign country)

business B is incorporated & maintains a biz office in the continental US AND does most of its production & work (online & offline) at that very office in the US. biz B maintains all records at that office as required by the regs.

now, the problem lies in inspection where they may find some sort of discrepancy or violation. which biz do you think they are more likely to attempt to prosecute & do an inspection on? no one is breaking the law, both businesses are complying, its just less likely they will be going out of the continental US to conduct an inspection as that would involve money, time & jurisdictional issues.

this however is NOT feasible for the majority of invidividuals who are in the online adult biz as a "side job" because most cats have no idea how to live in another country nor would they want to. but it certainly looks like an option. the only way they could force you to produce documents in court is if there is some question of a model's age that would convince a judge to compell the company to produce them. if you aren't fuckin with "teen" shit, that won't happen.

talk to your attorney, but i do think i'm correct (i've already sent this info to mine to be sure).



..

[WolfTexas]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

The crusade isn't against us directly. It's against all things "non christian" in america, all the things they see as bad. We are but one of those things.

Alex

Dually noted, and agreed. This is perhaps the widest sweeping step towards Christian National Socialism that has ever been seen. What is going on isn't genocide such as Nazi Germany in the early to mid 1900's, but instead a Theocide to generate the Christian homeland.

Your mention of being paid back is true. And they found the perfect fall guy for the job. President Bush. He's seeing his job idealistically, and not with malice in his mind (he's not that smart). What we all need to be aware of, is the OTHER elected officials and appointed members to the legal and governmental systems of our country.

I used to vote republican nationally, and largely democrat locally. My sense for fair play has definitely garnered a needed overturn or our populated rightwing bodies and return to a middle ground where, those of us with extreme liberal views and those of us with extreme conservative views are moderated with a sense of fair play. Ahhh, utopian thought. How simpleminded of me, eh?

Wolf.

[SexVideoContent]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

They have wide reaching television programs (Orsteen claims 7 million viewers a week) and the have best selling books. Their goal is a literal interpretation of the bible as directly what god said, and that makes porn a big no-no.

This is exactly why I have mentioned (on another board) the possibilty of using some ad space on TGP's and LL's as a news forum. Between only a few of the big players in this industry they have the ability to make a headline or two reach more people in one day than most newspapers and some large television networks. This industry has concerns about its freedoms, why not use this to an advantage? Forget for a second the thought of using every last pixel to advertise something with a ref code and instead use a very small portion of TGP's and LL's as a legitimate source of news to communicate to the masses issues that may affect their freedoms.

This not only would give a voice to people in this industry but would also further help protect adult websites as a legitimate source of news deserving of the protection of free speech.

And people might pay attention to headlines about their rights being violated if they see a pair of tits next to the story

[RawAlex]

damnq, I agree with you - except for one little thing:

Company "a" with the accounting & collection office in the US is collecting for what? Porn site access? They are the commercial part of selling those websites. They are entered into a commercial agreement or conspiracy (I love that word in a ruling) to sell porn. While I am not real sure on this, it makes them part of the commericization and as a result, they may have to have records.

You need to watch this law closely, it is written backwards - it state exception rather than who is included. Unless you specifically find an exclusion that coveres you 100%, then you are included.

I don't disagree with you, but I think it is much closer to the edge than you think.

Alex