Jaded

[xxxjay]

I’ve been in this business since 1997-98 full-time. I like to think that in those years that I’ve learned a thing or two – especially about search engines. I love Greenguy and Jim and I can say that it’s the only board that I post to regularly. I’ve always think I’ve been pretty cool about sharing useful info – you know, trying to be a good webmaster, contribute to this board, and trying to be part of the “community”.

Well some of the same things that have made me a good webmaster have also made me a bad businessman. After all, this is business – I forget that sometimes. I always thought that people who said “don’t share too much info…” were being paranoid. Now, I am starting to rethink all of that. Other webmasters may be part of the “community” but, at the same time, they are also the competition.

Why aid the competition? From now on any good info or tips that I come up with, I’m just going to keep it to myself and spend my time implementing them than posting and telling other how to do the same thing.

A perfect example is, without naming any names, there is a certain webmaster that posts to this board on a regular basis that I have traded links with for PR purposes. This prick DROPS MY LINKS without telling me, while I leave his links up. When I go ask him about it – he makes some lame excuse about why he dropped my links. And all along he has been targeting some of the same terms, using the same strategies I use, writing his pages using examples of my code, copying my linking structures, and then do you know what this prick has the nerves to do?

HE TELLS ME THAT HE GOT HIS IDEAS FROM READING MY POSTS.

Well I guess I won’t be making that mistake again. You won’t see any more posts like this coming from me:

http://www.greenguysboard.com/board/...=&threadid=855
http://www.greenguysboard.com/board/...&threadid=1035

Now I’m starting to realize that part of keeping me successful is keeping the completion stupid.

Helping Other Webmasters = Shooting Yourself In The Foot

It’s a hard lesson to learn, but I guess its better I learned it sooner than later.

[urb]

Originally posted by xxxjay
I always thought that people who said “don’t share too much info…” were being paranoid. Now, I am starting to rethink all of that.

Paranoid?

[xxxjay]

Originally posted by urb
Paranoid?

Nah, just feeling particularly shit on.

[urb]

I am sure you learned something valuable in the process Jay.

School fees.

[xxxjay]

Originally posted by urb
I am sure you learned something valuable in the process Jay.

School fees.

Yeah P did - people suck. I already knew that though.

[Linkster]

Jay - knowing who you are talking about and having had our small conversations about the same problem, I know how ya feel - as do a lot of webmasters here. I guess that the best solution in my mind to this is a little less on the harsh side, but it's something I learned real fast from being hard-headed when I first came into the biz.
First off - helping new WMs when they are stuck or just can't figure something out by reading the posts here or at any resources we recommend a lot around here is, to me, an exchange that should take place, for two reasons. One - it helps us as LL, TGP whatever owners to get people on track for their submits and make money for all involved. Two - that new WM may be the person you would like to trade with in the future and they will remember the help you gave - most of the time.

That brings in the second part - when you start seeing one WM sticking out as someone who exploits everyone and screws you without even a "thanks" - it's time to at the very least, make people that you know trade or do biz with that person aware of whats going on - just like you did in this case - and I'm pretty sure the whole network of people that do trades with that individual will look a little harder at their biz with that person - in my case, when I found out about a particular WM, I shared that info through a few icq contacts and emails. That WM no longer has trades with a lot of people.

Last - I've been looking back at a lot of info that I've put out in articles, posts and irc chats, and in most cases I found that most of the info I was sharing was info that was available through a quick search of many boards and SE info sites. My stance, although I fall into the trap of blabbing too much sometimes, is to now answer requests for info by pointing people towards certain resources, and to let them get out of that reading what they will. I've talked to other WMs about the exact same thing you're going through and they have also taken this approach.
It sucks to give out a lot of info that is helpful, to just have it thrown back at you in the form of competition and thanklessness - At the same time, I know if it hadn't been for a few people that are now running this board and mods here, I'd still be hardheaded and probably working at a plant somewhere but I do let them know through the trades, traffic and thanks as well as biz I throw at them because of that help. Like my momma always said - what goes around comes around (deep southern drawl on that one)

[urb]

Originally posted by Linkster
what goes around comes around

That's very true.

[Cleo]

This is why I've all but stopped trading links other then through a script. I already spend to much time dealing with submitted sites then to also go tracking down traffic trades.

As far as posting lets just say that there is a woman behind the curtain controlling the Cleo persona.

[jennym]

Hey Jay,
That sucks man! Please hit me or Dean up on ICQ with the name and sites of this person. We trade with a lot of people here, and just want to..at the very least...make sure they don't screw us too.


Jennifer
ICQ 61470842

[stuveltje]

Ha thats one thing i have learned very quick in this bizz, dont share all your secrets. Its nice to help other webmasters, but i dont need to tell all, they have to find out themselfs too, just the way i learned it

[CaptainJSparrow]

Hi Jay,

A question, did he knock you out of some placements on google by using your strategies and links to him? If so, I'm sure that some of your friends on this board, and others, would be willing to help you re-gain "your" positions by putting some links up to your sites and pulling links to the guy that's pulling your links. I have hundreds of sites, and don't have the time to ensure that folks keep links up to me and I've had similar experiences in the past. If you'd pm me with the guy that did this...I have a suspicion that I already know who he is...I will be sure to not do any (more) trades with him.

[RawAlex]

Jay, it has always been a paradox of this industry, and one I suspect will be going away as things get much more agressive and mean in the next 12 - 24 months. We teach people to fish, and they set up a commerical fishing boat and attempt kill us off.

Let's face it. In the North American market, the internet has reached a plateau. Fewer and fewer new users, fewer of them with enough means to pay for porn, and an entire generation of kids turn 18 that have been brought up on Birtney Spears and softcore porn videos on MTV. They ain't buying porn, they don't have the same feeling of tease that we all have had in the past. Some of them are going for the reality sites, but even reality sites are having to go too far off the far end to be really useful - plus the shelf life on reality isn't that good.

From now on, any additional money you make comes from someone else's pocket. Get use to it.

You teach them too much, the money will come from your pocket.

Yes, I will help people get listed on my link sites, that is good business for both of us. I will help people understand the basics of the business - but I haven't really been inclined for more than a year now to really spill anything I know.

HOWEVER, in order to get other people to trade with you and to do stuff with you, you have to give up some of the background as to why you want to do something. You just have to be careful to give away only enough to make it interesting, not enough to make it wasteful.

Alex

[xxxjay]

Originally posted by RawAlex
Jay, it has always been a paradox of this industry, and one I suspect will be going away as things get much more agressive and mean in the next 12 - 24 months. We teach people to fish, and they set up a commerical fishing boat and attempt kill us off.

Let's face it. In the North American market, the internet has reached a plateau. Fewer and fewer new users, fewer of them with enough means to pay for porn, and an entire generation of kids turn 18 that have been brought up on Birtney Spears and softcore porn videos on MTV. They ain't buying porn, they don't have the same feeling of tease that we all have had in the past. Some of them are going for the reality sites, but even reality sites are having to go too far off the far end to be really useful - plus the shelf life on reality isn't that good.

From now on, any additional money you make comes from someone else's pocket. Get use to it.

You teach them too much, the money will come from your pocket.

Yes, I will help people get listed on my link sites, that is good business for both of us. I will help people understand the basics of the business - but I haven't really been inclined for more than a year now to really spill anything I know.

HOWEVER, in order to get other people to trade with you and to do stuff with you, you have to give up some of the background as to why you want to do something. You just have to be careful to give away only enough to make it interesting, not enough to make it wasteful.

Alex

Rawalex - I agree with your post totally. This weekend was actually a record setting for me sales wise (Commission $4,177.65) and my costs are pretty low right now, but I worked my ass off for that for 4 or 5 years to reach $400 - $600 sales level each day. I agree, why give that back - there's only so much out there.

[backoffbitch]

I know just what you mean. I used to chat with a newbie about 6 months back. Nice guy, so I gae hima few tips on how to successfully build a freesite and reap search engine traffic from it and collect traffic to a central hub from it. I agreed to show him my work if he would sign up for the sponsor under me and NOT promote a certain site in it.

so a month later I am searching link-o-rama to see how my sites are being listed. Low and behold i find what looks liek my sites under the other guy's domain. Same enter/leave table and font and size. Same content chosen from the free sets. Same keywords targeted and using a hi page that consists of different pieces of all the stuff I showed him. Ok, I figured he was just trying it out to see if what I told him actualy worked. So I never said anything,

Next thing ya know, a week later I am searching google for all my targeted keywords,,, and I find a shitload of sites from him in TOP placement using my methods, keywords and layout and bits and pieces of stuff from MY sites. When confronted, he claims "Oh, I thought you told me to do it exactly like you and you never told me not to use that same site to promote" So, whenever he asks for tips now.... i just ignore him.

So as of then, I only deal with and network with established webmasters or those that are paying me for my information and services. I still get fucked over and ripped off occasionaly. But that's normal for this biz I guess. Lost potential $2k this past month and going to take time to recover from it as I set my own shit aside for that period of time I was working with those "person(s)" That was a risk I took delaing with newbies. A risk I will never take again


Moral of the story folks:
As jay pretty much summed it up.. keeep your ideas to yourself

... but keep your options open to networking with established webmasters in a deal that makes both of you richer.

[xxxjay]

Originally posted by backoffbitch
I know just what you mean. I used to chat with a newbie about 6 months back. Nice guy, so I gae hima few tips on how to successfully build a freesite and reap search engine traffic from it and collect traffic to a central hub from it. I agreed to show him my work if he would sign up for the sponsor under me and NOT promote a certain site in it.

so a month later I am searching link-o-rama to see how my sites are being listed. Low and behold i find what looks liek my sites under the other guy's domain. Same enter/leave table and font and size. Same content chosen from the free sets. Same keywords targeted and using a hi page that consists of different pieces of all the stuff I showed him. Ok, I figured he was just trying it out to see if what I told him actualy worked. So I never said anything,

Next thing ya know, a week later I am searching google for all my targeted keywords,,, and I find a shitload of sites from him in TOP placement using my methods, keywords and layout and bits and pieces of stuff from MY sites. When confronted, he claims "Oh, I thought you told me to do it exactly like you and you never told me not to use that same site to promote" So, whenever he asks for tips now.... i just ignore him.

So as of then, I only deal with and network with established webmasters or those that are paying me for my information and services. I still get fucked over and ripped off occasionaly. But that's normal for this biz I guess. Lost potential $2k this past month and going to take time to recover from it as I set my own shit aside for that period of time I was working with those "person(s)" That was a risk I took delaing with newbies. A risk I will never take again


Moral of the story folks:
As jay pretty much summed it up.. keeep your ideas to yourself

... but keep your options open to networking with established webmasters in a deal that makes both of you richer.

Yeah - I definently scaling back who I will be dealing with.