I'm As Mad As Hell, And I'm Not Going To Take This Anymore!

[justbondage]

Originally Posted by Toby

From a similar discussion on another board. Reposted with the authors permission.

Visa and Mastercard are making too much money to pull out, and even if they did find out (I am almost 100% certain they already know) unless it is illegal activity, they have far bigger things to be worrying about.

[nekrom]

Originally Posted by justbondage

Visa and Mastercard are making too much money to pull out, and even if they did find out (I am almost 100% certain they already know) unless it is illegal activity, they have far bigger things to be worrying about.

The online income that is generated in adult with visa/mc is but a drop in the bucket compared to mainstream non-adult.

-N

[tigermom]

Originally Posted by nekrom

The online income that is generated in adult with visa/mc is but a drop in the bucket compared to mainstream non-adult.

-N

Interesting. Can you please point us to some data about this? I'm not sure at all that this is the case.

I agree that pre-checked boxes under the fold is shady at best. I would think that anyone who gets screwed by those has the sense to contact their CC company and get their money back. Next you would have a lot of charge backs and then the companies would stop - right? I wonder why this isn't happening - maybe not enough people fall for this trick?

[papagmp]

Originally Posted by tigermom

Interesting. Can you please point us to some data about this? I'm not sure at all that this is the case.

I agree that pre-checked boxes under the fold is shady at best. I would think that anyone who gets screwed by those has the sense to contact their CC company and get their money back. Next you would have a lot of charge backs and then the companies would stop - right? I wonder why this isn't happening - maybe not enough people fall for this trick?

I have to agree with tigermom, it's devious but if the CC companies were really getting enough complaints (chargebacks) then they would jump in and monitor the vendors. They do this in mainstream so it would be foolish to assume that they don't do it in adult.

I process just under $1,000,000 in credit cards annually in my mainstream businesses, and chargebacks are rare, but the merchant account companies hate them - they cost way more in time and effort than the CC companies will ever recover so if there truly were too many, we'd see a change in the rules.

[nekrom]

Originally Posted by tigermom

Interesting. Can you please point us to some data about this? I'm not sure at all that this is the case.

I agree that pre-checked boxes under the fold is shady at best. I would think that anyone who gets screwed by those has the sense to contact their CC company and get their money back. Next you would have a lot of charge backs and then the companies would stop - right? I wonder why this isn't happening - maybe not enough people fall for this trick?

While there is no doubt that adult generates big money, as an example compare it to the billion dollar yearly industry that is just adwords/Ypn. (Yes I know adult uses it but it's a minor % compared to mainstream)

That is just 1 industry in mainstream. You can also add in the millions made by each of the different publisher networks, such as clickbank, cj, roirocket and so on.

Then there is the shitload that is made pushing Pharma & Replicas.

There is also the multi million dollar field of mlm. Each with it's different areas. One example is payed info forums, with hundreds of thousands of members each paying $99 a month for access.
-
As for the Cb issue. A lot of high volume programs use Offshore MA's. They do this as the CB ratio is much higher then the USA level, which gives them more room to work. They also most likely rotate the joins through several MA's so that they don't burn them.

As for customers that claim a CB, you'd be surprised to know that not every customer calls their bank. Most just move on.

-N

[faxxaff]

Originally Posted by nekrom

As for customers that claim a CB, you'd be surprised to know that not every customer calls their bank. Most just move on.
-N

In many cases it is not that easy to file a CB. Some banks are a pain in the ass and ask you to get in contact with the program and even ask you for prove of it or threaten you that a CB will automatically cause your CC to be replaced by a new one.

My guess would be that many users will just swallow the 80 bucks and move on as you said, but they will draw their consequences: they will never ever join a porn site again. They will use Google to locate a tube site and enjoy their payback from the porn industry.

BTW: I just noticed a similar screen on a signup page from the same biller, where it would cost around 110$ if the surfer wasn't aware of the prechecked buttons and the small text on the very bottom of the page.

[faxxaff]

I found this cross-selling scheme on a lot of programs and as a revshare affiliate I was having the imagination that - under NATS at least - I would be receiving a shave-free share of the sales. I am sure it's not a NATS problem, but it certainly shows, that NATS programs have a possibility to play crazy games with the term 'shave free' ... or am I getting this wrong?

[lassiter]

Originally Posted by faxxaff

My guess would be that many users will just swallow the 80 bucks and move on as you said, but they will draw their consequences: they will never ever join a porn site again.

True, but some percentage will definitely charge back, and given the punitively low allowable chargeback ratios that Visa/MC have imposed on the adult industry, I have a hard time believing that these sorts of tricks are really good business for the sponsors.

I agree with Greenie that it's up to the buyer to pay attention to what he's agreeing to, but I also think that the practices that Toby is pointing to are gonna bite the sponsors in the ass.

[justbondage]

Originally Posted by nekrom

The online income that is generated in adult with visa/mc is but a drop in the bucket compared to mainstream non-adult.

-N

Possibly, but it is still a lot of money.

[Useless]

Originally Posted by justbondage

Visa and Mastercard are making too much money to pull out, and even if they did find out (I am almost 100% certain they already know) unless it is illegal activity, they have far bigger things to be worrying about.

Visa proved a long time ago what it thinks about the adult industry and its willingness to say, "fuck you and your money and the headaches you've created." We'd be fucked without Visa - Visa would be fine without us.

[justbondage]

Originally Posted by Useless Warrior

Visa proved a long time ago what it thinks about the adult industry and its willingness to say, "fuck you and your money and the headaches you've created." We'd be fucked without Visa - Visa would be fine without us.

Why, what did they do?

[Mr. Blue]

Funny when Toby posted this on another forum I asked if he got the Link List guys opinion on it. I figured you guys would have a lot more piss and vinegar then TGP guys and sure enough...lol

Originally Posted by bluemoney

My take! There is a line between “suggestive selling” and “sneaky selling”

blueeee, lol, it's not exactly an ideal scientific experiment you set up there. What I mean to say is if my father brought me to a porn page and asked me to signup I'd start questioning what the hell he was up to and I'd be expecting a behind the head. So I'm pretty sure he was more observant then he'd be in a real situation:

Real situation, hand on dick, trying to join quickly while typing with one hand. There's a good chance you might not notice pre-checked cross sales below the submit button, especially if he's a cheapskate and buying a trial. If someone is buying a trial, it essentially means they want something on the cheap, not an extra $80 in passes. That guy will never buy another membership after that experience.

With all that said though, I do support Toby, but at the same time realize the inevitability of the situation. Sponsors do this because they’re catering to what some affiliates want and they have to keep up with the Joneses. I personally think pre-checked cross sales below the submit is shady as shit, it hurts the business, but it just gets added onto the very long list of things that hurt the industry. I mean when you see a site like XNXX, a once fine traffic source, turning into a tube site giving away 30 minute videos…umm…yeah, you can see as an industry we don’t always do what’s best in preserving what we have.