Fur - how can anybody be comfortable with this?

[Jim]

Originally Posted by Useless Warrior

Leather is most often a product of an animal that is being slaughtered for its meat AND hide.

Fur is most often a product of animal being slaughtered for its hide. A cosmetic thing, not a survival thing.

But whether one chooses to consume, wear, or make a pet of any living being, it shouldn't be so fucking much to ask that those animals be given a little respect. I eat meat and I own leather goods, but I don't want the animals' lives to be full of pain and torture and I sure as hell don't want them skinned alive. I'm far from being a perfect human (I eat KFC on occasion), but I at least I have some level of understanding about our bond to the other furry fuckers wandering this planet.

Lemmy

I really feel exactly the same way. None of my family hunts and I sleep in my woods the night before deer hunting season. I even fed the deer when there was too much snow for them to eat naturally. And, Jesus, we now have 6 dogs, 2 cats, 3 birds, a Salt Water Aquarium and now we rescued a Turtle that was living in the worst smelling Aquarium you would ever smell. That happened yesterday. The poor thing is 2 years old and found out yesterday that he could swim

[RawAlex]

I should also point this out in case I didn't make it clear: The aminals in the PETA video were almost certainly used as food, not just killed for skin. You may not agree with the methods (and I cannot argue) but considering how much cattle, chickens, pigs, and sheep we munch our way through here I don't think we have much of a leg to stand on telling them what to eat.

Alex

[Jim]

You're right Alex. A few years ago we had a Chinese Restaurant get closed down for what the health department called "unknown meat". It really didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what the meat was.

With that being said, my father used to travel all over the world. He came home with the top piece of a Monkey Skull. He told me what they did and I didn't talk to him for almost a month. My father and 4 other guys sat at a table with a hole in the middle. The, still living, monkey was brought in and was put in the table from the bottom with his head in a vice like device. All the men had little mallets and had to hit the monkey in the head and remove the top part of the skull to eat the brains. Still today...I can't figure out how my father could do that. He has told me over and over that he had no idea what type of restaurant he was going to but still...get up and walk away for Christ's sake.

[virgohippy]

Originally Posted by Jim

Really, I wish Beef didn't taste so damn good. And I wish I could stop getting pepperoni on my pizza...I know it would be much healthier but, it's just too tasty and I am too weak

I dunno Jim... all that cheese? What're a few pepperoni gonna do?

I wish I could say I've been a vegetarian for 20 years... but I'm just a bit too young for that. Personally, I believe more humans could be fed if we stopped giving our food to all the animals... but how do you convince someone who likes meat that we have molars for a reason, and those few incisors in our jaws were originally intended for opening fruit skins? Sounds crazy, doesn't it?

That aside, in some parts of the world the only thing you can grow is cattle, wich can thrive on wild grasses. Just say a blessing before you blow it's brains out... or whatever quick method of execution people do.

As for skinning alive? I'm gonna put my rose colored shades back on now, and pretend I didn't read that.

[stuveltje]

ha i am an meat lover too, now my daughter (11) got hit by girls in her classroom, who said killing animals is bad, so my daughter said, i will never eat something what is from an animal, first day: mom what do we eat....me: ahummm baked patatoes veggies , salade and chickenshit(my name for chicken soft cooked with mushroomsauce) oh she said , oke nice, i said you didnt wanna eat meat anymore, yeah well i start tomorrow that taste very good chickenshit. like jim, i like leather jackets and more, i like steaks, chicken, eggs alot same with the rest of my fam, now nobody mention the make up they use, which are test on little rabbits, or the medicine they take to get better which are test on animals, do you all check in a store when you buy make up if it is tested on animals? do you ask your doc if the medicine you take is tested on animals? what i do care of is, when you have an animal or pet whatever you name it, you take care of it, cat, chicken, cow, pig, lobster who cares, treath it like a child of yours, we cant controle every country, every country have their own survival rules for food and what they like...

[Cleo]

Originally Posted by virgohippy

I wish I could say I've been a vegetarian for 20 years... but I'm just a bit too young for that. Personally, I believe more humans could be fed if we stopped giving our food to all the animals... but how do you convince someone who likes meat that we have molars for a reason, and those few incisors in our jaws were originally intended for opening fruit skins? Sounds crazy, doesn't it?

From what I've read most primates, that is what we are, eat grubs, insects, fruits, and vegetables.

[juggernaut]

I don't like watching videos like that. I don't know if it's real cause I did not watch it, I don't need to. I have seen some sick things people do to animals but I have also seen people do the same to each other. I don't watch any of those videos. I eat meat, I don't want to see where it comes from and I do not want to be the one to kill it. I agree with UW and anything that is killed be killed in the quickest more painless manor. But this is a hard thing to do short of walking up behind something and putting a bullet through it's head. But I think it was the buddist who said something like, anything that flinches when you raise your hand to it knows pain, thus has a knoweldge of death. This gives that being a soul and should not be killed. I think that's correct, but I don't live by it. I'm a big hypocrate when it comes to eating and clothes.

[karomesis]

Objectively arguing morality is simliar to arguing taste, which, contrary to popular opinion, cannot ever be won by either side.

The lifeforms on this planet arose through a process that is ruthless and heartless......evolution. Jim was hinting at the results of it when he commented on our incisors. I may agree or disagree with machiavelli, but his principles hold true regardless.

In probably less than 15 years or so we will have artificial meat and other animal products that taste exactly like the real thing but are grown in labs using nanotech, saving billions and billions of dollars in the process.

[Lemmy]

Originally Posted by karomesis

Objectively arguing morality is simliar to arguing taste, which, contrary to popular opinion, cannot ever be won by either side.

The lifeforms on this planet arose through a process that is ruthless and heartless......evolution. Jim was hinting at the results of it when he commented on our incisors. I may agree or disagree with machiavelli, but his principles hold true regardless.

In probably less than 15 years or so we will have artificial meat and other animal products that taste exactly like the real thing but are grown in labs using nanotech, saving billions and billions of dollars in the process.

In a philosophy class I would agree with you. Outside the world of academia, not entirely. All the rules and conventions most of us live by, whether we agree with them or not, are based on moral values and without them society would fall apart.

Yes, "evolution" (up to a certain point) made the world what it is, but natural selection hasn't been a factor in the development of human societies for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. And this is exactly what sets us apart from animals; compassion and empathy, the ability to distinguish between right and wrong, or even have a concept of right and wrong (based on moral values). Knowing when to do the right thing. Or self-servingly act against that knowledge no matter who gets hurt.

Me, I'm really looking forward to a nice, juicy nano-burger.

[karomesis]

All the rules and conventions most of us live by, whether we agree with them or not, are based on moral values and without them society would fall apart.

"morality" is actually a societally placed construct that predetermines the likelyhood of this or that value that just so happens to be in vogue at any given time. Once we have a real AI, the merits of my argument will become much more apparent.
How will an artificial intelligence learn morals? and from whom? fanatical muslims? perhaps an odd skinhead or two? If democracy, then when do we start? It cannot be "moral" according to everyone, which means to some it will be immoral.

Yes, "evolution" (up to a certain point) made the world what it is, but natural selection hasn't been a factor in the development of human societies for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. And this is exactly what sets us apart from animals; compassion and empathy, the ability to distinguish between right and wrong, or even have a concept of right and wrong (based on moral values). Knowing when to do the right thing. Or self-servingly act against that knowledge no matter who gets hurt.

A quick perusal of this subject will quickly dispell any notions of human superiority over other animals. Even though we no longer kill mammoth, it certainly doesn't mean we lack the primitive impulses and desires of our ancestors. They have just become less pronounced to the casual observer.

http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homep...blications.htm

In evo psych topics like the "cinderella effect" are discussed. that is the statistical probability of harm a child will be either injured or killed by a stepparent, which is much greater than from a biological parent. Did you also know that women are most likely to cheat during ovulation? when her chances of becoming pregnant are far more likely. I could go on and on with examples, but this is supposed to be a porn forum so I'll shut up now.

[pvtspanky]

We should stop eating vegetables too. Think about all of the killing of innocent bunny rabbits, squirrels, chipmunks, etc, from all the farm equipment, each and every harvest. We should also wage a Jihad on Venus Flytraps, what's up with those?!

[Useless]

Originally Posted by juggernaut

I don't like watching videos like that. I don't know if it's real cause I did not watch it, I don't need to. I have seen some sick things people do to animals but I have also seen people do the same to each other. I don't watch any of those videos. I eat meat, I don't want to see where it comes from and I do not want to be the one to kill it. I agree with UW and anything that is killed be killed in the quickest more painless manor. But this is a hard thing to do short of walking up behind something and putting a bullet through it's head. But I think it was the buddist who said something like, anything that flinches when you raise your hand to it knows pain, thus has a knoweldge of death. This gives that being a soul and should not be killed. I think that's correct, but I don't live by it. I'm a big hypocrate when it comes to eating and clothes.

Even the Dalai Lama has eaten a steak. Buddhists realize that we will not all follow the path, so they teach us to be mindful, thankful, and to not be glutonous to such a point that more suffering would be caused than what is necessary. I don't think you or I are hypocrites for living normal western lives. We strive for a balance. Yes, we eat meat and drive cars, but we don't go out of our way to do harm and we acknowledge that some beings will die due to us living.

A Buddhist monk was once asked if it was bad karma for he and his fellow monks to bring in a cat to rid their monstary of mice. The monk responded, "That's the cat's karma. Not mine."

[Useless]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

You may not agree with the methods (and I cannot argue) but considering how much cattle, chickens, pigs, and sheep we munch our way through here I don't think we have much of a leg to stand on telling them what to eat.

Alex

I'm one of those people who doesn't distinguish between cat and cow. It's like you said - it's a cultural difference. One eats what one has available to them. I certainly wouldn't wrong anyone for eating what is available. One of my more twisted comments for whenever someone makes that age-old comment about not eating Chinese food because it could be someone's cat, is this: I don't care if it's their fucking grandmother, as long as it tastes like General Tso's chicken to me.

[RawAlex]

Useless, that is one of the reasons why I like Buddhists so much. It really is everyone for themselves, you are not shamed or discounted by the actions of others, nor are you somehow magically lifted by their goodness.

I have long since learned to be careful asking what I am eating when I am with mainland chinese friends. I have found that things like BBQ pork stomache and things like necks and tails aren't all that bad... mental prejudice is you know ahead of time.

Alex